Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 So we know that Cersei had sex with Jaime at least once before her wedding (on the morning of her wedding as it happens). So given that she had no way of knowing Robert would be drunk to the point he wouldn't remember such things, how did she plan to explain it? Or was it another case of Cersei being stupid and arrogant but lucky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 She was young. And most likely very stupid. She got lucky that Robert was drunk and probably forgot the previous night. I doubt she orchestrated the whole thing. The Cersei from the books is capable of that, but I very much doubt her younger version would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Honestly IMO there is no way for a man to tell whether a woman is a virgin or not. Every woman is different. Not everyone bleeds, not every woman is even born with a hymen, not everyone breaks or looses (or however you call that) it through her first time. Some women even keep it despite having sex. So all of it is kind of a myth. Edit: But since both Cersei and Bobby probably didn't know that, I agree with @zandru Cersei might have had a plan, where she would get "blood" from. She has been always very confident/overconfident, when it came to her abilities in dealing with men. She might have been scared/nervous about it, but probably just told herself Robert wouldn't dare to question her honor and insult the Lannisters that way. The same way she tells herself nobody should/would dare to accuse her of cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reekazoid Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Perhaps it could have been explained as having broken during a horseback ride? Surely any Maester worth his chain could explain away a ruptured hymen in such logical and contemporary terms. Whether a guy like Robert would accept it, is a different story. However he strikes me as someone who is willing to believe that everything is just fine if he can rationalize it somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 21, 2020 Author Share Posted April 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Reekazoid said: Whether a guy like Robert would accept it, is a different story. However he strikes me as someone who is willing to believe that everything is just fine if he can rationalize it somehow. Here's the thing though, Cersei doesn't know Robert at this point, so she is taking a huge, kinda pointless risk here. She couldn't have known that Robert was going to be drunk, nor that if he had noticed the missing maidenhead, he wouldn't have freaked out. From what we know of Robert there was no reason to worry, but Cersei didn't know that. So it seems another of her stupid risks, like fathering none of Robert's children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 I would have just assumed that Tywin had some loyal servant at hand with the bowl of chicken blood. And this was a good question, considering other references in the series to "virginity testing" and formal inspections of the conjugal bed. But wait! As far as we know, Tywin never knew of his childrens' incestuous relationship. Nor was Cersei promiscuous at that point. Okay, so it's more likely that Cersei had set aside the bowl of chicken blood near the bedside. And Tywin could have browbeat the maesters to prevent them from examining his precious, obviously virginal daughter just as a matter of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 21, 2020 Author Share Posted April 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, zandru said: I would have just assumed that Tywin had some loyal servant at hand with the bowl of chicken blood. I think Tywin is way too much in denial to do something like that. He intentionally ignores the twincest even as it's staring him in the face, and probably considers Cersei smart enough not to have sex until marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, zandru said: I would have just assumed that Tywin had some loyal servant at hand with the bowl of chicken blood. And this was a good question, considering other references in the series to "virginity testing" and formal inspections of the conjugal bed. All Pycelle had to do was confirm she was a virgin because he was Tywin's most loyal servant. He knew Cersei's children were not Robert, so it's not like he can't lie to protect Cersei's secrets. Or Robert just didn't care whether there was blood or none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Even if there is no blood, would a noble man really make a big deal out of that, without having a different reason like cersei had with Mag? Would most not simply "chose" to believe their brides, since much depends upon the marriage most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Most of the maidens break it on horseback so there wasn't really much to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaith Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Cersei and Jaime's sexual relationship started before the day of her wedding, they slept together in Eel Alley after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood, and a good while before her marriage to Robert was even on the table. And yes, there is no reliable way to confirm virginity. Cersei herself knows this: Quote Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk. Sport can cause the hymen to wear away a lot of the time, not everyone bleeds or even feels pain during first intercourse if it is penetrated, and it is not even abnormal for some women to be born without it at all. Of course people in Westeros do not know all of this, but they know that lack of bleeding is not universally suspicious, especially for noblewomen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted April 21, 2020 Author Share Posted April 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said: would a noble man really make a big deal out of that, without having a different reason like cersei had with Mag? Would most not simply "chose" to believe their brides, since much depends upon the marriage most of the time. You don't really get the point here. Yes in most cases it wouldn't matter, but there sure as hell are enough people out there who do care, and she knew nothing about Robert at that point. It just seems like a stupid risk regardless. It might have not mattered in most cases, but there was still that chance that she might be in deep shit because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 What is there to explain? Not every woman has a hymen, nor every sexual act is going 'to break' it or cause the woman to bleed. Not to mention there is really no practice in Westeros that maidenheads are investigated prior to a marriage nor any indication that anyone routinely inspects the sheets after a bedding. If this were so then Margaery's sheets would have definitely been inspected and shown around after she had married Renly - and she could have never claimed to still be a maiden when she married Joffrey and later Tommen. I mean, seriously guys, do not drag all shitty real world practices into Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 49 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: You don't really get the point here. Well, sorry then 49 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: It just seems like a stupid risk regardless. Since when is that something new with Cersei and Jaime? She even killed her friend as a kid already. Evil and also not risk free at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagini's Neville Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If this were so then Margaery's sheets would have definitely been inspected and shown around after she had married Renly - and she could have never claimed to still be a maiden when she married Joffrey and later Tommen. You think Renly and Mag consummated the marriage? I agree and that's why I think it's so fucked up Tyrion wants to consummate the marriage with Sansa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said: You think Renly and Mag consummated the marriage? I agree and that's why I think it's so fucked up Tyrion wants to consummate the marriage with Sansa They claimed it was consummated back then - and if it were customary to show around bloody sheets said sheets would have been seen and Margaery could no longer claim she was still a maiden even if she still was. That in and of itself is enough confirmation that something like that wasn't regularly done ... if it was done at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Bard Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 To quote Jaime, "a horse" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 5 hours ago, frenin said: Most of the maidens break it on horseback so there wasn't really much to explain. Cersei's not really the horseback-riding type though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 49 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Cersei's not really the horseback-riding type though. And who's going to check?? She only needs to have ridden once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 19 hours ago, Vaith said: And yes, there is no reliable way to confirm virginity. Cersei herself knows this: [insert quote from Cersei's thoughts] Well, now you're going by Cersei's knowledge, which we should by now realize is a mixture of ignorance, self-serving prejudice, wishful thinking and arrogance. We do know that virginity in high born marriages was of vital importance, because of the laws of inheritance. Verifying, sometimes through a maester's very intrusive examination, was often a requirement so that any offspring would be "legitimate" heirs of the man. If not by a maester's lacivious pre-inspection, then the bloody sheets would be the confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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