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Tywin Manderly

US Politics: To Open or Not To Open, That's the Question

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5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I didn't choose him.  We never even had a Dem primary here.  The Dem governor & DNC canceled it. Most US voters haven't chosen him because they never got to vote at all.

 

Are you arguing that Biden didn't somehow win the primary and get majority support from the party?

I won't argue it's a crappy system but has a nomination ever been competitive through all primaries? I doubt it. The process is almost always wrapped up before April. Half of the States vote is usually just symbolic. Again crappy I know. I hope your State gets to vote but let's be honest would it change the result? I doubt it. Biden wrapped up the nomination by winning enough groups in the party. I just think there any measurement that would state that Dems didn't want him or preferred someone else. 

If you are just expressing annoyance that your primary was cancelled ignore the above.

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I suspect it's a mix of her primary being cancelled and frustration with a system that lets the result be determined before over half the country has even had a chance to vote. The whole primary season seems such a bizarre approach from a foreign pov (talking for myself now).

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I guess every room in this house ends up being the one where you're the innocent victim who never said anything like "you guys wouldn't have voted for Bernie in the general" and all the negative reactions to your posts are just completely unfair and evidence that every centrist Democrat out there just wants to spend all day unfairly attacking Bernie fans.

I wouldn't have said a fucking thing to you if you'd just been talking about how shitty a candidate Biden is or how conflicted you are about the accusations, because I'd fucking agree with that. But no, you keep going on about how shitty we centrists are and how unfair we were to Bernie and how we wouldn't have supported Bernie in the general and how we're definitely going to blame you, personally, for Biden's inevitable defeat.

For the last time: I jumped on you because you attacked the integrity and good faith of people like me who don't like Biden but have calculated that he's the best chance we have to unseat Trump. It's not because you shared your personal troubles or don't want to eat a shit sandwich. It's because your posts are full of judgment for the rest of us who've decided we need to eat that fucking sandwich to save this shithole country.

 

I was told that I had a moral fucking imperative to eat that the shit sandwich, but I guess you conveniently skipped over that part. 

And I've spent the last four years getting lumped in with Bernie Bros, but god forbid that I make a few sweeping statements about moderates out of anger.

ETA: Look, you're right, okay? I made some sweeping statements out of anger and grief that I shouldn't have. I was being baited, I knew I was being baited, and I let myself be baited. The BI piece in particular hit me pretty hard because of some specifics that won't make sense to anyone but me. I apologize for any sweeping statements I made, but I won't apologize for defending myself.

Edited by The Great Unwashed

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I was told that I had a moral fucking imperative to eat that the shit sandwich, but I guess you conveniently skipped over that part. 

And I've spent the last four years getting lumped in with Bernie Bros, but god forbid that I make a few sweeping statements about moderates out of anger. 

If I stand up to the big mean Jace for you, or ask Tywin to stop talking about the moral imperative of removing Trump from office, will you get your shit together?

Something unfair happened to you so you can just say whatever you want to people wrestling with the same moral quandary. Your previous suffering entitles you to be a judgmental dick to everyone who's made a different decision about Biden. Got it.

Just as you were asking us to quantify how many sexual assault allegations we're okay with against Biden, I'd like you to quantify how many shitlord Bernie Bro-style posts you get to make based on your Previous Suffering Quotient.

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Just now, DanteGabriel said:

If I stand up to the big mean Jace for you, or ask Tywin to stop talking about the moral imperative of removing Trump from office, will you get your shit together?

Something unfair happened to you so you can just say whatever you want to people wrestling with the same moral quandary. Your previous suffering entitles you to be a judgmental dick to everyone who's made a different decision about Biden. Got it.

Just as you were asking us to quantify how many sexual assault allegations we're okay with against Biden, I'd like you to quantify how many shitlord Bernie Bro-style posts you get to make based on your Previous Suffering Quotient.

From my edit.

Quote

 Look, you're right, okay? I made some sweeping statements out of anger and grief that I shouldn't have. I was being baited, I knew I was being baited, and I let myself be baited. The BI piece in particular hit me pretty hard because of some specifics that won't make sense to anyone but me. I apologize for any sweeping statements I made, but I won't apologize for defending myself.

I'm sorry.

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While I don't think it's at all likely to happen unless more allegations come to light, I don't buy the argument that Biden dropping out or being pushed out this far before the convention would be electoral suicide for the Democratic Party. Yes, it would be tricky to decide who the nominee should be, but I think that could be resolved satisfactorily. In any case, I don't see how a Democrat without this baggage could be a worse bet than Biden with the baggage. For the record, I do not think Sanders would be the candidate the party turned to, nor do I think he should be. 

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4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I was told that I had a moral fucking imperative to eat that the shit sandwich, but I guess you conveniently skipped over that part. 

And I've spent the last four years getting lumped in with Bernie Bros, but god forbid that I make a few sweeping statements about moderates out of anger. 

There is an increasing amount of bad blood between the center left and the left wings of the Democratic party over the past five years.  This is of course exacerbated by trolls and Russian hackers actively trying to divide the party (we've had both in these threads over the years).  What to do about it is hard to say, but I have been making an effort, both on the forum and in real life to foster a dialogue with Sanders supporters. 

My experience has been that it is much easier to do in real life, because text only is a very challenging medium to convey nuance and empathy.  But I totally hear your frustrations.  Biden is a thoroughly lackluster pick.  I think that PART (by no means all) of the reason that Sanders supporters have more difficulty accepting the Biden nomination is just a matter of timing.  It really did look like Sanders would win the nomination after Nevada and that was barely two months ago!  And then in the space of essentially 3 weeks, Sanders went from frontrunner to hopeless.  That's hard.  If you're really invested in Sanders, as many people were, that really sucks. 

And it is made even more difficult by Biden being your least preferred candidate.  I have the advantage that I've been steeling myself to the likelihood that one of my two least preferred candidates have been first and second in the polls for virtually the entire race, and thus I am a lot less surprised when one of them became the nominee.   

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I honestly don't know the right answer to the question about given moral and personal issues with a candidate, should I choose them or not. I do think, however, that that choice is going to have consequences one way or another, and ignoring that is just wishful thinking. My voting for Obama in 2012 knowing that he'd drone strike more is a legitimate thing that I have to carry the burden of. If I had chosen not to vote for him, that's a choice that has its own consequences too. 

Just because you have good reasons for making that choice - or you think you do - does not absolve you of the consequences of that action. It might mean that it's acceptable morally or ethically to do so, but that still doesn't change the consequences. 

For me, it's very difficult to think that anything Biden has done is morally worse than allowing Trump to continue being POTUS. For me, the choice is simply whether or not I think Biden gives us the best shot at this point in beating Trump. As more news comes out and it becomes a bigger story that calculus for me gets worse and worse, and I think that it becomes a better choice to dump him, especially if it's earlier in the cycle. The ethical question comes into it very little. And that's a consequence I'm going to have to take on and accept - that I am tacitly encouraging a rapist to win an election. 

But as horrible as that is, it's a acceptable price for me to pay if it means Trump's removal. 

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30 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

That's just one of many. And I couldn't possibly have a good reason for not wanting to vote Biden, or not want him to be the nominee. No, I'm apparently just taking my ball home AND HELPING THE VILLAIN thinking I'm morally superior or some horseshit.

Not wanting him the nominee is fine and dandy, but that ship has sailed. Deal with it.

Taking your ball and going home, yes, that's the beauty of the two party system. I have very little patience with people Susan Sarandoning on an imaginary moral high ground. You abstain, you helped the election winner, by not voting against him. A bit simplified. Like Sarandon, your decission to sit this one out, will presumably have very little impact onthe outcome. Oklahoma is not exactly a blue leaning swing state. And Sarandon, I assume, would've either voted in LA or NY, which are so solid blue, she had that luxury. She should've just kept her trap shut and instead of actively encouraging people not to vote, and then have the balls to show up and protest against the outrages of Twitler. But, alas, it would not be Susan Sarandoning without it, would it.

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2 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I like how all it took was about 12 hours or less until Bernie supporters started getting blamed for this.

I wonder why that is. It's not as if a portion of Bernie followers on Twitter are the main ones, other than Teathuglikkkan trolls, promoting the idea that Biden is automatically certainly a rapist.

Most other Democratic voters I know want to see Reade's accusations addressed ASAP, but are holding off on the torches, pitchforks, and presumption that Biden is a rapist.

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10 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Not wanting him the nominee is fine and dandy, but that ship has sailed. Deal with it.

Taking your ball and going home, yes, that's the beauty of the two party system. I have very little patience with people Susan Sarandoning on an imaginary moral high ground. You abstain, you helped the election winner, by not voting against him. A bit simplified. Like Sarandon, your decission to sit this one out, will presumably have very little impact onthe outcome. Oklahoma is not exactly a blue leaning swing state. And Sarandon, I assume, would've either voted in LA or NY, which are so solid blue, she had that luxury. She should've just kept her trap shut and instead of actively encouraging people not to vote, and then have the balls to show up and protest against the outrages of Twitler. But, alas, it would not be Susan Sarandoning without it, would it.

I made some sweeping statements out of anger and grief that I shouldn't have. I was being baited, I knew I was being baited, and I let myself be baited. The BI piece in particular hit me pretty hard because of some specifics that won't make sense to anyone but me. I apologize for any sweeping statements I made, but I won't apologize for defending myself.

I'm sorry.

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8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I wonder why that is. It's not as if a portion of Bernie followers on Twitter are the main ones, other than Teathuglikkkan trolls, promoting the idea that Biden is automatically certainly a rapist.

Most other Democratic voters I know want to see Reade's accusations addressed ASAP, but are holding off on the torches, pitchforks, and presumption that Biden is a rapist.

I made some sweeping statements out of anger and grief that I shouldn't have. I was being baited, I knew I was being baited, and I let myself be baited. The BI piece in particular hit me pretty hard because of some specifics that won't make sense to anyone but me. I apologize for any sweeping statements I made, but I won't apologize for defending myself.

I'm sorry.

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47 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Oh really? But it's fucking cool when I get unfairly attacked, natch.

ETA: And for an example why I think progressives will be blamed if Biden loses, exhibit #1:

That's just one of many. And I couldn't possibly have a good reason for not wanting to vote Biden, or not want him to be the nominee. No, I'm apparently just taking my ball home AND HELPING THE VILLAIN thinking I'm morally superior or some horseshit.

You are though. You live in a two party system. Like it or not, you do have to vote for the lesser of two evils, and if you don't, you cannot complain about how Republicans are even worse. 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Are you arguing that Biden didn't somehow win the primary and get majority support from the party?

There wasn't a primary, so of course he didn't win it.  What part about primaries being canceled and not held do you not get?

Since then all he's done is sit in his comfy basement and do and say NOTHING.  Ya, that's a great candidate all right. But we can't have a smart, energetic, prepared, intelligent, hard working woman because it's not that she's hated for being a woman, but Big BIz and Wall Street don't want her anywhere near running the country and giving them her attention.  The same people who want to kill us by reopening NYC -- where 31% so far random testing has shown to be infected with the virus.  They in their comfy spacious basements served by others of course aren't affected or in danger and don't even lose their businesses and their jobs like we have.  And we never got to vote for somebody who might do something about this.

What the Dems have chosen as their standard bearer is Big Biz as Usual, and don't even bother to mount a speech attacking what They did, what They are doing and what They plan to do, even IN THESE TIMES, about the goddamn pandemic!

How many of you Dems here are going to be standing in a long line all day long in who knows what kind of weather in November to cast a vote for Biden?  How many of you really believe there will even be an election?

 

Edited by Zorral

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29 minutes ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

While I don't think it's at all likely to happen unless more allegations come to light, I don't buy the argument that Biden dropping out or being pushed out this far before the convention would be electoral suicide for the Democratic Party. Yes, it would be tricky to decide who the nominee should be, but I think that could be resolved satisfactorily. In any case, I don't see how a Democrat without this baggage could be a worse bet than Biden with the baggage. For the record, I do not think Sanders would be the candidate the party turned to, nor do I think he should be. 

LOL
 

Because size matters.

Dude, if Biden was forced off of the ticket, and Sanders wasn't the selection, and there was some shadowy way of selecting the nominee, how do you think the Sanders bloc to behave? Or even the more moderate bloc if it was Sanders? 

It would be a complete shit show, and you all know it. This is all so self-destructive......

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Just sayin' this the national Dem Party, via the NY Times, endorsed the Dem candidate for POTUS months before there were debates and primaries, because They Decided. That was Hillary.  That worked out just dandy.

 

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2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Just sayin' this the national Dem Party, via the NY Times, endorsed the Dem candidate for POTUS months before there were debates and primaries, because They Decided. That was Hillary.  That worked out just dandy.

 

Just sayin' this post rivals a Donald tweet for incomprehensibility.

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1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Just sayin' this the national Dem Party, via the NY Times, endorsed the Dem candidate for POTUS months before there were debates and primaries, because They Decided. That was Hillary.  That worked out just dandy.

 

Whether you like it or not, Biden was killing Bernie before this all went down, and is currently ahead almost 400 delegates. Biden needs less than 700 delegates. Bernie needs over a thousand. Bernie has come out and acknowledged this reality and endorsed Biden. Your unhinged post doesn't change a thing about that.

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