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US Politics: Bounties from a Jericho Walk

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6 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I know she has done the whole "I can work with them" thing which is probably where that attack came form, but that is something that is entirely expected.

Right.  Like I if you look at this interview, which is where the link I cited came from, she totally steps in it.  I agree she's not a very good candidate.  At least on the PR aspect.  But that don't make her a "Trump Democrat."

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Can you just refer to him by name? Its proper cringe, nobody else is doing it, and it's making you sound really daft.

Daft is thinking there is anything else that aptly describes the combo of  corruption, insanity, ugly, cruelty and utter disregard for anything approaching decency that he is and what he does every minute of every day.

You can call him what you like -- fearless and beloved leader? -- I call him what he is.

Nor am I alone.  In the last weeks many people now refer to him and his followers as a death cult.

But you are a cop in the UK so you probably unaware of this.

 

Edited by Zorral

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Posted (edited)

Think they can call him what they please, and if it's something you cringe over, just put them on ignore.

i think that we probably should give occupants of offices the style to which their offices respectively entitle them. as professor agamben says, 

Quote

In office or duty, being and praxis, what a human is and what a human does, enter into a zone of indistinction, in which being dissolves into its practical effects and, with perfect circularity, it is what it has to be and has to be what it is. Operativity and effectiveness define, in this sense, the ontological paradigm that in the course of a centuries-long process has replaced that of classical philosophy.

(opus dei at xii-xiii).  though we might distinguish “the individual from the function he exercises, so as to secure the validity of the acts that he carries out in the name of the institution” (opus dei at 21), we must keep in mind how the distinction between the “work done” (opus operatum) and the “doing of the work” (opus operans) arises from one peter of poitiers, 12th century theologian, who argued somewhat notoriously that “God is offended by the devil’s action, but not the act itself," that “God approved of the passion of Christ carried out by the Jews, insofar as it was the Jews’ work done, but did not approve the Jews’ doing of the work” (opus dei at 23.): “even if the devil does what God wants, he does not do it as God wants and for that reason, he is always sinning” (id.).  therefore--

Quote

The divine effectus is determined by the human minister and the human minister by the divine effectus. Their effective unity is officium-effectum. This means, however, that officium institutes a circular relation between being and praxis, by which the priest’s being defines his praxis and his praxis, in turn, defines his being. In officium ontology and praxis become undecidable: the priest has to be what he is and is what he has to be.

(opus dei at 81). and i don't see why we would want to dispute that.

Edited by sologdin

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2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You can call him what you like -- fearless and beloved leader? -- I call him what he is.

Just my opinion, but your labeling of Trump and/or the GOP always looks very juvenile.  It makes you like silly rather than supporting your assertions.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

I know I come across as an ideologue on here, in part because this isn't real life so I can be, but I'm actually pretty pragmatic in practice. I know that a Democrat is better than a Republican, but I think that there is an element of fatalism when it comes to Democrats running in red states. If all you do is run right wing Dems in those states, you are never going to move the state closer to the center. All you're doing is reinforcing the idea that both parties are basically the same, and in my opinion are actually hurting yourself.

Polls in the last week or so were actually showing Booker performing better than McGrath against McConnell, so it is not like putting up a conservative Dem actually guarantee a better outcome.

I'm not sure I'd say you're very pragmatic. 

And if you were such a pragmatist, you would know a lot of these "right wing" Democrats are probably more liberal than you, At least in the course of actions they take. But can you be a burning blue flame in some places? Obviously not. Do you have to take positions publicly that privately you hate. Duh. 

It's easy to be a liberal in a place that wants to elect liberals. Being in a place that wants to not just elect Republicans, but like really shitty, as bad as they get Republicans, like ya know Kentucky, well, you've got to take some positions that might bother left wing liberals. But have no doubt that person more likely than not wants similar things, and there's no reason to degrade them, most of the time. 

A few of them deserve it though. But not McGrath, by any means. She checks all the necessary boxes, and I hope she wins.

Was Sen. Claire McCaskill, for example, a bad ally, or a great and wonderful friend who just had to break with you now and then because of practical reasons? 

So this conversation on pragmatism. Now where were we? 

Edited by Tywin et al.

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3 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I haven’t read Sun Tzu lately, but isn’t letting your enemy that Is harming itself to carry on...rough translation.

Purity for dems should be...do they wear a mask or not!

Sun Tzu came to my mind as well, but when I googled it it turns out that the quote I was thinking of was Napoleon:

“Never interrupt you’re enemy when he is making a mistake.”

I’m sure Sun Tzu has one along those lines too.

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7 minutes ago, S John said:

Sun Tzu came to my mind as well, but when I googled it it turns out that the quote I was thinking of was Napoleon:

“Never interrupt you’re enemy when he is making a mistake.”

The man had the finest glove slap that will ever exist. 

Damn if he's not one of the most interesting people in history though.

But winning and losing at some things is a matter of pride, or just because you need something to do, while at others it creates centuries of narrative, wouldn't you say? 

You best not lose to Oklahoma this year. If they actually play games.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

The man had the finest glove slap that will ever exist. 

Damn if he's not one of the most interesting people in history though.

But winning and losing at some things is a matter of pride, or just because you need something to do, while at others it creates centuries of narrative, wouldn't you say? 

You best not lose to Oklahoma this year. If they actually play games.

In football? Haven’t beaten them in over a decade.  It’s coming though, I can feel it.

and yea I am having serious doubts there will even be a season at this point

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11 minutes ago, S John said:

In football? Haven’t beaten them in over a decade.  It’s coming though, I can feel it.

and yea I am having serious doubts there will even be a season at this point

Well I mean, regardless of industry, the true titans of capital and marketing, whatever they do, need to make their money. So tough it up sick pleb. Especially those unpaid workers who expose themselves to serious life long debilitating injuries. 

That's how we make our trend lines look more similar to our European friends!

Oh, wait, shit. I think I may have made a slight miscalculation here.

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There was some good @Raja bait today with the Surgeon General absolutely pleading with people to wear masks.  So bizarre that he went so hard in the other direction months ago.  Whoops.

Has anyone mentioned the Pence event with a god damned choir indoors?  Stranger than fiction.

Just listening to CNN in the background and hearing the suggestion that the spikes are so bad right now that contact tracing is now irrelevant.  

It has been nice knowing you all in this little corner if the internet all this time.  

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Triskele said:

It has been nice knowing you all in this little corner of the internet all this time.  

Dang I thought Triskele was referencing a movie. I guess not.

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I haven't watched that movie in a while.

I'll watch it again tonight.

 

Poor Harumi :crying:.

Did I just quote something by accident?  Spoiler alert, dude.  

ETA:  I had actually only heard Ayanna Pressley in spots and just heard her at length on the news.  Ashamed to say I didn't realize that she had that much game.  

Edited by Triskele

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Did I just quote something by accident?  Spoiler alert, dude.  

ETA:  I had actually only heard Ayanna Pressley in spots and just heard her at length on the news.  Ashamed to say I didn't realize that she had that much game.  

Well you are a bird that can't fly, so not everything always goes as planned. 

Edited by Tywin et al.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Triskele said:

ETA:  I had actually only heard Ayanna Pressley in spots and just heard her at length on the news.  Ashamed to say I didn't realize that she had that much game.  

During her victory speech following the September primary election, Pressley called out President Donald Trump, claiming he is "a racist, misogynistic, truly empathy-bankrupt man."

Indeed. That’s game. 

But also obvious to anyone with working senses and a soul :D

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well you did quote a bird that can't fly, so not everything always goes as planned. 

Ummm, you think the TSA discriminates against penguins?

I can fly as long as I pay for the ticket. 

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3 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Ummm, you think the TSA discriminates against penguins?

I can fly as long as I pay for the ticket. 

Are penguins white human men?

No?

Yeah, probably then. Plus I've got to guess the TSA isn't exactly in the most friendly of moods, these days. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Are penguins white human men?

No?

Yeah, probably then.

Absolutely yes. 

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not sure I'd say you're very pragmatic. 

And if you were such a pragmatist, you would know a lot of these "right wing" Democrats are probably more liberal than you, At least in the course of actions they take. But can you be a burning blue flame in some places? Obviously not. Do you have to take positions publicly that privately you hate. Duh. 

It's easy to be a liberal in a place that wants to elect liberals. Being in a place that wants to not just elect Republicans, but like really shitty, as bad as they get Republicans, like ya know Kentucky, well, you've got to take some positions that might bother left wing liberals. But have no doubt that person more likely than not wants similar things, and there's no reason to degrade them, most of the time. 

A few of them deserve it though. But not McGrath, by any means. She checks all the necessary boxes, and I hope she wins.

Was Sen. Claire McCaskill, for example, a bad ally, or a great and wonderful friend who just had to break with you now and then because of practical reasons? 

So this conversation on pragmatism. Now where were we? 

Hold on, are you really saying that people like Clara McCaskill and Joe Manchin are more liberal than I am? Jesus Christ man. Well, that depends on what definition of liberal you mean, since we actually use it wrong in the US. Yeah, I live somewhere it is super easy to be on the left, but I'm still to the left of the average Washingtonian or Oregonian Democrat.

Honestly I think that it is fine to have a broad coalition, the problem is that I think a lot of these right wing democrats are doing more work for their donors and the moneyed interests in their orbit than their constituents. I know that Doug Jones is a moderate to somewhat conservative democrat, I don't love it, but I accept that he has to be in order to run in a place like Alabama (probably still going to lose because he's not going up against a sex pest), but I also don't see him as acting in a way that negatively impacts the broader left wing project that Democrats claim to support.

Clara McCaskill didn't vote the way she did because of where she was elected from, she voted because she is a corporate tool who just spent the first few months of the year trashing Bernie Sanders every chance she got. People like that are there to constrain the Democratic party on behalf of big business and to give cover for Schumer and Pelosi to talk a big game while doing fuck all.

That said, I would vote for them over a Republican, which is also part of the problem.

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18 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

That said, I would vote for them over a Republican, which is also part of the problem.

But dude, this is really the entire point that Kal has been making no matter what Tywin is emitting right now.  

Both of them would defend an expansion of healthcare.  Both them would at least maybe deny a really conservative judge (even if they didn't always).

The system is as we find it, and getting a seriously liberal US Senator into WV or Missou is a heavy lift.

Heh, I think that Jay Rockefeller was a crazy fluke in hindsight.  Where have ye gone?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

Hold on, are you really saying that people like Clara McCaskill and Joe Manchin are more liberal than I am? Jesus Christ man. Well, that depends on what definition of liberal you mean, since we actually use it wrong in the US. Yeah, I live somewhere it is super easy to be on the left, but I'm still to the left of the average Washingtonian or Oregonian Democrat.

Have they achieved more liberal goals of substance than you? Much as I like the former and dislike the latter, the truth is they have. And that goes for pretty much all of us. And like I said, I really dislike one of the two people in question. 

Being a moderate or a pragmatist or a centrist is not a bad thing. Virtue signaling while achieving nothing is.

Quote

Honestly I think that it is fine to have a broad coalition, the problem is that I think a lot of these right wing democrats are doing more work for their donors and the moneyed interests in their orbit than their constituents. I know that Doug Jones is a moderate to somewhat conservative democrat, I don't love it, but I accept that he has to be in order to run in a place like Alabama (probably still going to lose because he's not going up against a sex pest), but I also don't see him as acting in a way that negatively impacts the broader left wing project that Democrats claim to support.

Right wing Democrats. Hmm. There could be a few. But being a moderate is not the same as being right wing, and frankly I do not appreciate one of my former bosses getting hit with this because she works 16-18 hours a day, much harder than pretty much any of us. And she's to the left of a lot of you. But she's not a fool, and knows not to take foolish votes that go no where and only hurt you.

I'm sure Doug Jones wishes he could vote exactly how his heart tells him. But he can't always do that. That's politics, be it in a book club with just five friends or on the floor of the United States Senate. Don't be a child about such things. 

Go read about Doug Jones' greatest legal accomplishment, and please come back here and complain to me about his insufficient liberalism, but first ask yourself if you ever did anything like that.

Quote

Clara McCaskill didn't vote the way she did because of where she was elected from, she voted because she is a corporate tool who just spent the first few months of the year trashing Bernie Sanders every chance she got. People like that are there to constrain the Democratic party on behalf of big business and to give cover for Schumer and Pelosi to talk a big game while doing fuck all.

That said, I would vote for them over a Republican, which is also part of the problem.

Claire, not Clara, voted the way she did because she knew she was out kicking her coverage and never should have been in the Senate to begin with. To win a second term is something that should be shown a great deal of respect. And while you may have felt she was too moderate, or a conservative, or a corporate tool, or whatever, the Honorable Senator from Missouri was there most of the time when she was asked to be there, even if it was not necessarily in her best personal interests.

I have no ill will against her, even if of course I can find many things I disagree with her about. You need to let red state Democrats have some space to operate. How else do you expect things to change and get better.

I just dislike Manchin because I think he actively hurts the party. But "conservative, corporate Senators like Doug Jones or Claire MaCaskill?" I'd break bread with them any day of the week. 

ETA:

I'd do so with a lot of Republicans too. The horror, I know.

Edited by Tywin et al.

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