At this point who isn't Quaithe or Bloodraven?

[John Suburbs]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

I was supporting your point man! 

Sorry, it wasn't clear. I wasn't disputing anything you said, just pointing out that we have nothing tangible connecting Bloodraven to crows of any kind.

Some people point to Bran's chapter in Dream where he says the 3EC promised him he would fly and the last greenseer was still the 3EC in his dreams. But just because Bran believes this does not make it true.

[Frey family reunion]

11 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

I agree there difference between the two (tone, word choice, etc.) However, there are several factors to the difference in voice between the two. It is important to think about who is speaking, who is hearing and their state.

First, the 3EC is in many ways a coma/dream metaphorical manifestation in Bran's brain of someone (Bloodraven) contacting him. This is qualitatively different when much later in ADwD when Bran is interacting with Bloodraven both in person and in the dream/tree/weirnet. Between when Bran wakes from his coma and he meets BR in person he has spent a lot of time having greenish-dreams and skinchanging Summer (and even Hodor). Bran is getting better at the weirnet. Where as when he was in a coma he was there, more or less by accident. Bran's 'hearing' is as a traumatized child dreaming fantastical metaphors, which is exactly what he is. Remember, Jojen was also visited by the 3EC when he was ill. Tonally, it seems off for the 3EC to show up in Bran's coma-dream and literally explain the finer points of who they are, their personal history, the nature of magic, and the potential awesome responsibility that likely looms for Bran to shoulder.

Second, compare the metaphorical representations we have of characters in dreams/vision/prophecy, they are all close. It might be some kind of projection of how BR thinks of himself, as compared to how Bran's is manifest in his dreams/weirnet early on, a winged wolf chained, but we don't know that persons in the weirnet have any control over that. A bait and switch from anyone else from a magical part Targ guy, who was also a "crow," is not how it has worked before.

Third, there is something to be said for BR being unused to talking to anyone with his real body. Yes, the CotF and Coldhands (though we do not have confirmation about how much they all 'talked' before Bran and co arrived.) His grasp of regular conversation and discussion may off, to say the least. He never says he is not the 3EC. For all we know, he doesn't separate the concepts of Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, Lord Commander, and the 3EC in his own mind.

 

Sure, or it could merely be that at the time Bran’s coma dream was written GRRM had not thought up the character of Bloodraven or how he would be portrayed.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

21 hours ago, Megorova said:

Thus, the narrative and thematic point of Bloodaven being not the 3EC, is that it was the 3EC/Shiera, who lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, and binded him to a tree, and Bloodraven used the 3EC as a bait to lure Bran beyond The Wall, to do to Bran what Shiera did to him, Shiera, who previously saved Bran from Bloodraven's fate/becoming food for the Weirwood.

You did nothing but restate your hypothesis here. Forgive me, but your reasoning seems cyclical; I see no point to this. What purpose would this serve narratively? How would this improve Bran's arc or act as an impetus for proactive action on his part? What thematic function would this fulfill? You did mention the symbolism of Bloodraven luring Bran to be bound by using Shiera who bound him, but what would this mean for Bran and why would it be important?

It seems to me that you are reading far too much into certain passages while completely ignoring those that would suggest other explanations, with all due respect.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

How would this improve Bran's arc or act as an impetus for proactive action on his part? What thematic function would this fulfill?

I don't understand what is it that you don't understand.

The 3EC saved Bran, thus Bran was thankful to it, and considered it to be a friend, an ally. So when Jojen said to him that the 3EC wants Bran to go beyond The Wall, Bran agreed to it. Then Jojen brought him to Bloodraven, and Bran, thinking that Bloodraven is his buddy, the 3EC, did whatever Bloodraven told him to do, including eating the weirwood seed paste (an action that will have terrible consequences for Bran). Bran thought that Bloodraven is the 3EC, and Bran trusted to the 3EC, because the 3EC is his saviour. Thus Bran trusted to Bloodraven, because he was under impression that Bloodraven and the 3EC is the same person. Bran thought that Bloodraven is his saviour, and a good guy, and an ally (even though actually he didn't knew this guy. Didn't knew him at all. Met him for the first time). But what Bran thought, was wrong. When he will wake up, and will see what happened to his body (the weirwood is growing thru it, from his stomach, thru his flesh and bones, binding him to that cave, and it's painfull), he will realise that Bloodraven is not the 3EC, because the 3EC saved Bran's life, and it (actually a she) wouldn't have done to him such a horrible thing. Then he will remember that when he asked Coldhands whether he's going to bring them to the 3EC, Coldhands said that he will bring them to the wizard, and when Bran directly asked Bloodraven himself whether he is the 3EC, Bloodraven didn't said yes or no. He lied to Bran by omission. Bran will realise that he made a horrible mistake, that the guy to whom he trusted and obeyed in everything, is not who Bran thought him to be. He will realise that Bloodraven is a wolf in a sheep's skin. He will realise that he needs to get out of that cave, because Bloodraven and the Children are bad guys, and they want to use Bran to do bad things. Thus Bran will escape from them.

Is that clear? 

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

You did mention the symbolism of Bloodraven luring Bran to be bound by using Shiera who bound him, but what would this mean for Bran and why would it be important?

For Bran it will mean that he is screwed. Bloodraven used him as revenge against Shiera. Shiera lured Bloodraven into a trap, and binded him to the Weirwood (which in his case is errevocable, because, unlike Bran, he doesn't have Hodor). Shiera saved Bran. Bloodraven lured Bran into a trap, and spoiled Shiera's work. And originally Shiera saved Bran not because of Bran, but because the Children needed a replacement for Bloodraven, whose body is on the verge of dying, and they need to have working connection with the Weirwood Network to control thru it the Others (the Children created the Others). Shiera saved Bran to slander Bloodraven. They are two dogs, and Bran is a bone, over which they are fighting.

[kissdbyfire]

@Megorova, I don’t think @Many-Faced Votary didn’t understand what you’re saying, but rather was asking... so what? How would this idea of yours impact the story? What does it do in terms of Bran’s - or anyone else’s, for that matter - arc? And the answer IMO is “nothing”. Not to mention that this is all pure speculation on your part. Things you interpret as sure hints can and are interpreted differently by others. 
 

@Frey family reunion, thank you for the reply regarding characters’ voices. I thought that was what you meant, but I wanted to make sure I understood you correctly. I suppose I just don’t really see it the same way. I don’t think someone must inevitably appear as themselves in a dream, or vision, or whathaveyou. Also, aren’t your replies to me and to someone else further down in contradiction a bit? 

[Many-Faced Votary]

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Megorova, I don’t think @Many-Faced Votary didn’t understand what you’re saying, but rather was asking... so what? How would this idea of yours impact the story? What does it do in terms of Bran’s - or anyone else’s, for that matter - arc? And the answer IMO is “nothing”. Not to mention that this is all pure speculation on your part. Things you interpret as sure hints can and are interpreted differently by others. 

Precisely this -- thank you for the explanation!

 

@Megorova, I appreciate your clarification, but my point still stands; I do not believe you have answered the question I was posing. I believe you are free to theorize and make your own interpretations from the text, but I happen to respectfully disagree with your conclusion. However, I do not disagree to the extent that I will debate against it; rather, I do not see the evidence align with all the facts and inferences available in the text, nor do I perceive any purpose.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

How would this idea of yours impact the story? What does it do in terms of Bran’s - or anyone else’s, for that matter - arc?

Possibly, after realising that both, the 3EC and Bloodraven, were using him for their own purposes, Bran will stop doing what others tell him to do, and will begin to use his own head, to decide what to do from now on.

Same as Arya. Same as Jon. Same as Dany. And Tyrion, and Sam, and Jaime, and Sansa. Seems that going independent will be the main theme in TWOW.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Things you interpret as sure hints can and are interpreted differently by others. 

Sure, others can have different interpretations, and later we will see who was right, me or them.

Let's try to do a bit of logical analysis. - > For example, in ASOIAF there's House Morrigen from Crow's Nest castle. In my opinion, this is GRRM's hint/parallel to Battle Crow, avatar of Morrigan/Morgana le Fay, lover of wizard Merlin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badb

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan#Arthurian_legend

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake

In my opinion, it's a clear hint that it was Shiera/3EC/Quaithe, who binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood, same as Nimue binded Merlin. GRRM knows Irish and Welsh folklore, particularly about shadow queen Morrigan/Battle Crow, and Merlin's fate in Arthurian legends. This House Morrigen of Crow's Nest is a too thin element to be a red herring, because all the point of the red herring is to be noticed, and to divert attention of the readers, to act as a distraction. Like Ashara Dayne and Wylla were supposed to divert attention of the readers from figuring out that Jon is Lyanna's child.

What's your interpretation of this? -> House Morrigen from Crow's Nest castle. <- Red herring? Something not important? Other options?

And there are 20+ elements like that, with hints that the 3EC is Shiera Seastar and shadowbinder Quaithe. There are too many of those elements for them to be accidental or unintentional on Author's part. Overabundance of those elements/hints/clues is an evidence that my logical assumption about Bloodraven, being not the 3EC, is correct.

You sort of proposed burning your ASOIAF-books, if my theory, that Rhaego is alive, will turn out to be correct. Do you have GRRM's authograps? How about burning them, if my theory, that the 3EC is Shiera, will turn out to be correct? (Just kidding. Obviously No burning anything)

P.S. Burning books is

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Overabundance of those elements/hints/clues is an evidence that my logical assumption about Bloodraven, being not the 3EC, is correct.

No, it isn’t. It’s only evidence that you interpret some things a certain way. 

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You sort of proposed burning your ASOIAF-books, if my theory, that Rhaego is alive, will turn out to be correct. Do you have GRRM's authograps? How about burning them, if my theory, that the 3EC is Shiera, will turn out to be correct?

Yes, and I’d rip the autographed pages off before throwing the books in a ginormous bonfire, while completely inebriated. I believe that’s what I said, right? 

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

(Just kidding. Obviously No burning anything)

P.S. Burning books is

Finally, something we can agree on!

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

thank you for the reply regarding characters’ voices. I thought that was what you meant, but I wanted to make sure I understood you correctly. I suppose I just don’t really see it the same way. I don’t think someone must inevitably appear as themselves in a dream, or vision, or whathaveyou. Also, aren’t your replies to me and to someone else further down in contradiction a bit? 

Just further ruminating on it and trying to decide whether it’s really significant.

[Big P]

It's really Quaithe who is the object of identity theories.  At this point, we know for sure she is not Belwas!!!!!!!    One of his manboobs alone is bigger than her. 

[Lord Lannister]

I've been toying with this possibility in my head for awhile. Quaithe probably isn't a friend to Daenerys. All her warnings are cryptic and seem to be helpful on the surface, but they seem to serve the purpose of causing Dany to doubt everyone and quite possibly from going to Westeros at all. So what females would benefit from Dany failing? 

Some associate of MMD? One of the Blackfyre daughters? An associate of Qarth's warlocks? 

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

Everyone knows that Qyburn is Bloodraven and Quaithe is Lady Tanda. I thought this was common knowledge??? 

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Everyone knows that Qyburn is Bloodraven and Quaithe is Lady Tanda. I thought this was common knowledge??? 

It is known.

[TheLastWolf]

34 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Everyone knows that Qyburn is Bloodraven and Quaithe is Lady Tanda. I thought this was common knowledge??? 

It is known.

HODOR!!!! REALLY??? 

[Ser Leftwich]

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I've been toying with this possibility in my head for awhile. Quaithe probably isn't a friend to Daenerys. All her warnings are cryptic and seem to be helpful on the surface, but they seem to serve the purpose of causing Dany to doubt everyone and quite possibly from going to Westeros at all. So what females would benefit from Dany failing? 

Some associate of MMD? One of the Blackfyre daughters? An associate of Qarth's warlocks? 

Had this same thought about a possible Quaithe-MMD connection the other day and have been mulling it over. Not sure how it could be revealed in any reasonable way. Still mulling.

[Lord Lannister]

38 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Had this same thought about a possible Quaithe-MMD connection the other day and have been mulling it over. Not sure how it could be revealed in any reasonable way. Still mulling.

They both have the same grandiose, riddle filled way of speaking to be certain.