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Fury Resurrected

US Politics- Roger Stoned to Death

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4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I know this is a faint hope, but what else can we do but hope?  No matter how decisively Trump is defeated, the GOP will regain power eventually.  And if they keep moving further and further right, that is a recipe for rigged elections, civil war, authoritarianism, etc.  It might not be too long before we're saying "At least with TRUMP he had some respect for the courts, this guy on the other hand..."

Yeah....I think the only hope, longterm, is to render the GOP inert.  If they keep minimizing their reelection strategy to uneducated white people, I think there's more hope in another party arising than there is for the GOP to actually cease its rightward shift.

3 minutes ago, argonak said:

But who is going to stop him?  He regularly ignores laws already.  What's to stop him from going further?  

Like I said, I agree he gets away with a shitload, i.e. regularly ignoring laws, that's undeniable.  Other than abuse of federal law enforcement and the presidents potential to have wide breadth in foreign policy (albeit Trump hasn't really used that..yet), he is stopped from his worst impulses - often by his own party in Congress.  Certainly he'll be stopped by Dems holding both chambers.

6 minutes ago, argonak said:

If the GOP wants to keep him in power, and they just ignore everything what happens?  Because that's what happens when they break laws right now.  Nothing.  Nothing happens.  Or if Trump tomorrow said Ted Cruz was on now the Supreme Court.  Wrote some executive order.  And Ted Cruz started showing up to the court, what happens?  If the Republicans on the SC say "yes, he's now on the SC, he's with us."  What happens?  The Left leaning court members stop showing up, but then the SC just meets anyway?  

Again, this is fantasy land.  Elections stop him from keeping him in power.  That's why we need to make sure he loses convincingly.  As for appointing Ted Cruz to the SC with an EO, uh...no.  That's fucking beyond absurd.  Even the conservative justices would get the Marshals to remove him.  You think Thomas is going to let someone sit on his court without getting confirmed after what he went through?

8 minutes ago, argonak said:

So much of our society relied on people following norms.

What you're referring to aren't norms, they're laws.  And moreover, constitutional law.

8 minutes ago, argonak said:

I'm not so sure they'll dump Trump.  He's become this weird iconic figure for them.  Not even Reagan had it like this.  Its like religion to some of them.

Not so sure about that if he loses reelection.  The authoritarian personality that's attracted to Trump does not like losers.

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30 minutes ago, argonak said:

I'm not so sure they'll dump Trump.  He's become this weird iconic figure for them.  Not even Reagan had it like this.  Its like religion to some of them.

 

28 minutes ago, DMC said:

Like I said, I agree he gets away with a shitload, i.e. regularly ignoring laws, that's undeniable.  Other than abuse of federal law enforcement and the presidents potential to have wide breadth in foreign policy (albeit Trump hasn't really used that..yet), he is stopped from his worst impulses - often by his own party in Congress.  Certainly he'll be stopped by Dems holding both chambers.

Reagan is a religious figure for them now. Dunno if that was always the case.

Anyway, the most important thing is. Trump must under no circumstances be pardoned by his successor. He just has to stand trial for his crimes. Yes, for them he will become a martyr, but those are lost anyway. The important thing is, that a public trial, should also tarnish all those GOP Senators and enablers that shielded him. Also release the Muller report with as few redactions as possible. The entire shame has to be out there in the light of day. A convict will look less good on that pedestal.

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah....I think the only hope, longterm, is to render the GOP inert.  If they keep minimizing their reelection strategy to uneducated white people, I think there's more hope in another party arising than there is for the GOP to actually cease its rightward shift.

The GOP has to be defeated repeatedly, until the last one of them is out. Which will probably not be happening to Cotton, because of his very safe seat.

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38 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah....I think the only hope, longterm, is to render the GOP inert.  If they keep minimizing their reelection strategy to uneducated white people, I think there's more hope in another party arising than there is for the GOP to actually cease its rightward shift.

Like I said, I agree he gets away with a shitload, i.e. regularly ignoring laws, that's undeniable.  Other than abuse of federal law enforcement and the presidents potential to have wide breadth in foreign policy (albeit Trump hasn't really used that..yet), he is stopped from his worst impulses - often by his own party in Congress.  Certainly he'll be stopped by Dems holding both chambers.

Again, this is fantasy land.  Elections stop him from keeping him in power.  That's why we need to make sure he loses convincingly.  As for appointing Ted Cruz to the SC with an EO, uh...no.  That's fucking beyond absurd.  Even the conservative justices would get the Marshals to remove him.  You think Thomas is going to let someone sit on his court without getting confirmed after what he went through?

What you're referring to aren't norms, they're laws.  And moreover, constitutional law.

Not so sure about that if he loses reelection.  The authoritarian personality that's attracted to Trump does not like losers.

Man I hope you're right.  I get too spun up sometimes.  But I live in a part of washington with a lot of the "wealthy suburb" style Trump voters, and they're just in their own fantasy land.  My neighbor kept telling me how Seattle was just in total chaos and destruction, and how we had to be ready for when "antifa" came to attack our homes.  And this is a person who you would otherwise consider to be quite intelligent and cool headed within his career.

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but your solution seems counter-productive. Backing politicians who promise you the stars and the moon with no real plan to achieve them are doing you a greater disservice than the incrementalists. They aren't your allies either if you need something to actually happen. They're giving you a false sense of hope. 

As far as lacking empathy and a willingness to fight for others, spare me. You have no evidence to make such claims. Someone who lacks empathy isn't going to work with children with special needs and someone who won't fight for others isn't going to work +12 hours a day, everyday, to get good politicians in office and then work on legislation to improve people's lives.

Stop being unnecessarily hostile to people who are mostly like minded to you, for starters. The actual differences between a Biden and Sanders Administration with regards to healthcare would most likely be minor, and Biden may actually have a better chance of expanding it further than Sanders could, especially if we still have a divided government.

Yeah, hm, seems familiar to claiming that I ever rooted against Clinton. There is literally no evidence of that. I've always said she is highly qualified and would be a fine President. I've recently said I'd happily take her over Biden. So you're kind of making shit up too. Sucks, right?

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Not so sure about that if he loses reelection.  The authoritarian personality that's attracted to Trump does not like losers.

Except for Nazis and the Confederacy, I guess.

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I hope people remember who I am.  Because this post could come across as a complete troll. :)  And its not that.  I've been here years!  Just never in the politics thread.

But this is definitely  a weird one...

So I was having a very rare political conversation with a very good friend of mine (an American citizen) who has lived in Ireland for years. And I was shocked by what she implied.

BUT, I wouldn't be the right person to debate these topics with her. I'm no expert on American politics. But, I would like to send her info. So if people have any links to info on the below topics, can they share? It can argue either side but i'd rather not have supposition and exaggeration.  The topics are...

  1. Is the Green New Deal good for America?
  2. What are Harris’ views on defunding the police?
  3. How much does the Democratic party control BLM (or vice versa)?
  4. Do police arrest violent criminals and democratic politicians let them go? (I tried to deescalate these 5 statements but there is no way of doing that for this one without losing all meaning).
  5. As a whole, how often are BLM protests violent?

Thanks for any info!  I originally planned to just google stuff myself but I would never be sure that the stuff I find isn't click-bait.

I'm not going to debate anything here.  Just take any links and run! :)

 

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49 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

Yeah, hm, seems familiar to claiming that I ever rooted against Clinton. There is literally no evidence of that. I've always said she is highly qualified and would be a fine President. I've recently said I'd happily take her over Biden. So you're kind of making shit up too. Sucks, right?

You trashed her during the primaries. There are productive and unproductive ways to differentiate candidates and policies, and you typically do the latter.

Also, why would you pick her over Biden, just out of curiosity? 

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37 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I hope people remember who I am.  Because this post could come across as a complete troll. :)  And its not that.  I've been here years!  Just never in the politics thread.

But this is definitely  a weird one...

So I was having a very rare political conversation with a very good friend of mine (an American citizen) who has lived in Ireland for years. And I was shocked by what she implied.

BUT, I wouldn't be the right person to debate these topics with her. I'm no expert on American politics. But, I would like to send her info. So if people have any links to info on the below topics, can they share? It can argue either side but i'd rather not have supposition and exaggeration.  The topics are...

  1. Is the Green New Deal good for America?
  2. What are Harris’ views on defunding the police?
  3. How much does the Democratic party control BLM (or vice versa)?
  4. Do police arrest violent criminals and democratic politicians let them go? (I tried to deescalate these 5 statements but there is no way of doing that for this one without losing all meaning).
  5. As a whole, how often are BLM protests violent?

Thanks for any info!  I originally planned to just google stuff myself but I would never be sure that the stuff I find isn't click-bait.

I'm not going to debate anything here.  Just take any links and run! :)

 

Pod why in the name of the old gods and the new are you hanging out with some Seppo who needs convincing that Dems don't just...let violent criminals go?

So, for #1 -- here's an opinion piece in a centrist publication by economists. Given that most legit (i.e. not ideological right-wing bullshit) concerns about the Green New Deal involve the economic side, this endorsement of the Green New Deal does a good job at showing why it's good economic policy.  

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/429652-green-new-deal-is-good-economics

Edited by Xray the Enforcer

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40 minutes ago, Padraig said:

 

  1. Is the Green New Deal good for America?
  2. What are Harris’ views on defunding the police?
  3. How much does the Democratic party control BLM (or vice versa)?
  4. Do police arrest violent criminals and democratic politicians let them go? (I tried to deescalate these 5 statements but there is no way of doing that for this one without losing all meaning).
  5. As a whole, how often are BLM protests violent?

1. Yes

2. She is against defunding the police 

3. Very little.

4. No

5. Very rarely - most violence is caused by right-wing counter-protesters 

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45 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I hope people remember who I am.  Because this post could come across as a complete troll. :)  And its not that.  I've been here years!  Just never in the politics thread.

But this is definitely  a weird one...

So I was having a very rare political conversation with a very good friend of mine (an American citizen) who has lived in Ireland for years. And I was shocked by what she implied.

BUT, I wouldn't be the right person to debate these topics with her. I'm no expert on American politics. But, I would like to send her info. So if people have any links to info on the below topics, can they share? It can argue either side but i'd rather not have supposition and exaggeration.  The topics are...

Well, if she doesn’t vote for Biden I guess we’ll just have to blame Pod.

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@Padraig that's a laundry list of Republican propaganda. Unfortunately it's commonly believed by a lot of stupid people. I'm on a town Facebook page where some dingbat low-level Republican office-holder constantly talks about how Evil Democrats hate America and want to get us all killed by releasing violent criminals (is black and brown people) from prison and making it impossible for (white) homeowners to defend themselves by banning guns.

 

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6 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Pod why in the name of the old gods and the new are you hanging out with some Seppo who needs convincing that Dems don't just...let violent criminals go?

Very nice to see you back here!  

31 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I hope people remember who I am.  Because this post could come across as a complete troll. :)  And its not that.  I've been here years!  Just never in the politics thread.

But this is definitely  a weird one...

So I was having a very rare political conversation with a very good friend of mine (an American citizen) who has lived in Ireland for years. And I was shocked by what she implied.

BUT, I wouldn't be the right person to debate these topics with her. I'm no expert on American politics. But, I would like to send her info. So if people have any links to info on the below topics, can they share? It can argue either side but i'd rather not have supposition and exaggeration.  The topics are...

  1. Is the Green New Deal good for America?
  2. What are Harris’ views on defunding the police?
  3. How much does the Democratic party control BLM (or vice versa)?
  4. Do police arrest violent criminals and democratic politicians let them go? (I tried to deescalate these 5 statements but there is no way of doing that for this one without losing all meaning).
  5. As a whole, how often are BLM protests violent?

Thanks for any info!  I originally planned to just google stuff myself but I would never be sure that the stuff I find isn't click-bait.

I'm not going to debate anything here.  Just take any links and run! :)

 

1.  Yes, it will create jobs and start to tackle climate change in a meaningful way.  It's not a fox for everything, and there are a lot of specifics to hammer out, but it would be far more expensive and dangerous in the long run NOT to start implementing it asap.

2. Here's Harris explaining that herself.  

3.  The Democratic party does not control BLM, at all, and BLM certainly doesn't control the Democratic party.

4.  No, I do not know of any violent criminals being let go on the orders of democratic politicians.  The democratic party as a whole, and particularly the mainstream-estavlishment Democratic party,  isn't all that different when it comes to law and order and criminal justice than the Republicans, they may be slightly less cruel, and they at least pay lip service to the idea of systemic racism needing to be dealt with.  I mean Joe Biden wants to increase police spending, and much of the left thinks that Harris was too harsh as a prosecutor and attorney general.

5.  How often are BLM protests violent?  I'm not sure.  The cops don't seem to hesitate before getting violent with protestors, in Portland it seems like the cops were getting violent pretty much everyday, usually around nightfall.  

To my knowledge neither Biden nor Harris have even mentioned the injustice of federal agents murdering Reinhoel (sp?) in Portland.  

To this Democratic leaning voter, both Biden and Harris are much more sympathetic to the law enforcement in this country than they are to BLM.

Caveat: this is all just my interpretation of what's been happening, ymmv 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Except for Nazis and the Confederacy, I guess.

If he loses?  Nah, they'll find some other standard-bearer.

39 minutes ago, Padraig said:
  • Is the Green New Deal good for America?
  • What are Harris’ views on defunding the police?
  • How much does the Democratic party control BLM (or vice versa)?
  • Do police arrest violent criminals and democratic politicians let them go? (I tried to deescalate these 5 statements but there is no way of doing that for this one without losing all meaning).
  • As a whole, how often are BLM protests violent?

I'm too lazy to provide many links right now - maybe later - but I'll give brief answers on these.

  1. The GND is aspirational, most of it is unlikely to get passed anytime soon.  Still, aspirational policy on the greatest challenge this world faces in the longterm future is generally good for America.
  2. Harris does not support the "defund movement."  See here:  "Most recently, in a June 10 interview with The New York Times, Harris differentiated between defunding police and reinvesting in communities. 'No, we’re not going to get rid of the police,' she said. 'We all have to be practical. But let’s separate out these discussions.'"
  3. The BLM lobbies the Democratic party for influence.  To what extent?  Minimal.  The Democratic party definitely does not control BLM.
  4. No, that notion is Willy Horton-esque horseshit.
  5. According to a recent study, about 93% of racial justice protests are non-violent.

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I mean, yes. All of that is accurate @tzanth and @DanteGabriel. And personally I don't think questions 3 thru 5 are worth putting any effort in, because as you say those are blinkered beliefs that no amount of well-researched, well-reported, and well-written analysis is ever going to punch through. 

But at least #1 and #2 are easy to tackle. 

@DMC -- that article about more than 9 out of 10 BLM protests being nonviolent is a good find. Thank you. 

Edited by Xray the Enforcer

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I'm amazed at how much respect DMC seems to have for the rule of law in the United States. Every time someone proposes some hypothetical scenario about Trump doing something extreme (from packing the SC to seizing ballots at gunpoint), DMC's response seems to be "no one would let him get away with him breaking the law like that!". Yet we consistently see Trump pushing the boundaries of the law and getting away with it. Every day we see more evidence that the right-wing in the US has pretty much given up on the law - if anything they see the law with disdain.  Every day we also see more examples of political violence, from shootings at protests to armed road blockades in Oregon. I'm worried that we are at the point where most people on the right do just see laws as norms, and in many cases they see norms that they would like to break. I think we are near the point where Trump could ignore most US laws, the SC, Congress, or just about anyone else and half the country would fully support him. At that point its really just the US military that has any real check on his power, and the thought of that is pretty terrifying.  

 

 

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42 minutes ago, tzanth said:

I'm amazed at how much respect DMC seems to have for the rule of law in the United States.

Uh, I don't.  Trump's constraints have little to do with the "rule of law."  They have to do with the competing interests of other officials - including in his own party.  Trump wanted to abolish the filibuster, McConnell didn't let him.  He could have tried to pack the courts his first two years, but he didn't.  Seizing ballots at gunpoint?  Uh, no, that ain't gonna to fly because it would become public immediately, and nobody serious is going to acquiesce to that, c'mon.  I'm not saying Trump and the right doesn't continue to push the envelope to democracy-threatening degrees.  But a lot of the things that are thrown out around here are decidedly fantastical, and yeah, I'm gonna say so.

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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Uh, I don't.  Trump's constraints have little to do with the "rule of law."  They have to do with the competing interests of other officials - including in his own party.  Trump wanted to abolish the filibuster, McConnell didn't let him.  He could have tried to pack the courts his first two years, but he didn't.  Seizing ballots at gunpoint?  Uh, no, that ain't gonna to fly because it would become public immediately, and nobody serious is going to acquiesce to that, c'mon.  I'm not saying Trump and the right doesn't continue to push the envelope to democracy-threatening degrees.  But a lot of the things that are thrown out around here are decidedly fantastical, and yeah, I'm gonna say so.

Just out of curiosity, in a hypothetical where that was widespread tampering with ballots, both in person and by mail, what happens? Would it be state by state since elections are still local or is there some federal law that would kick in?

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13 minutes ago, DMC said:

But a lot of the things that are thrown out around here are decidedly fantastical, and yeah, I'm gonna say so.

I hope you are right, but every day we read about things that even just a few months ago I also would have thought were fantastical. Today it was armed gangs manning roadblocks in Oregon and demanding IDs from drivers. A few weeks ago it was Rittenhouse shooting up a protest in Wisconsin. Whats going to be next? The fantastical and terrifying sadly seems increasingly normal and the tempo at which things become more absurd and more violent is speeding up every week. The US is rapidly running down the rabbit hole and I don't think we can reject hypotheticals anymore just because they seem fantastical or absurd. 

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

You trashed her during the primaries. There are productive and unproductive ways to differentiate candidates and policies, and you typically do the latter.

Also, why would you pick her over Biden, just out of curiosity? 

I did not plus you're changing the argument from me hoping she loses. Double strike.

Edited by Simon Steele

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13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Would it be state by state since elections are still local or is there some federal law that would kick in?

Not a lawyer, but I'd assume the immediate response would be from local law enforcement, yes.  And while the SC gutted an important aspect of the VRA, I assume there'd be some federal violations as well, yeah.

8 minutes ago, tzanth said:

Today it was armed gangs manning roadblocks in Oregon and demanding IDs from drivers. A few weeks ago it was Rittenhouse shooting up a protest in Wisconsin.

My focus is on what Trump can or could get away with.  Neither of those examples were organized by him or his staff - although to be clear I'm absolutely not arguing he caused them.  There's a difference.  Rittenhouse is still being prosecuted.  Is it likely he'll be let off or at best be given a slap on the wrist?  Yeah, but that speaks to a broken justice system that frankly precedes Trump.

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