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Alyn Oakenfist

Who's the stupidest player in the Game of Thrones?

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The Sansa defenders kinda make me dislike her as a character even more. 

She has almost no autonomy in the entire story except for three instances. The first time when she backs up Joffrey's version of events at the Trident and the second time when she rats out her father's plan to Cersei. Each time she chooses against her family to selfishly get what she wants. The third time is when she lies for Littlefinger after he killed Lysa but that is less relevant and done out of self preservation.

Sansa is directly responsible for all the Stark men and women who died in the Tower of the Hand that didn't go with Ned to the Throne room by letting Cersei know exactly when and how Ned was going to act. Veyon Poole, Septa Mordane, Hullen, Syrio, and all other named and unnamed people in service to House Stark died because Sansa ratted them out because she's a selfish idiot. She knew she was acting against her father's wishes but she did it anyway. 

Ned was probably going to be captured or killed regardless (because he trusted his life to a man who tried to bang his wife) but everyone else could have gotten out. 

She almost even spoils Littlefinger's plan to get her out of the city saying she doesn't need Dauntoss anymore because the Tyrells wrapped her around their finger via Margery and an attempted betrothal to Willas. It only works out for her because Tywin intervened. 

She is the Fredo of House Stark although I may be doing a disservice to Fredo with that comparison. 

Edited by Khal Eazy

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On 10/11/2020 at 12:07 AM, R2D said:

Your question re Sansa...

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

- GRRM

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1017

Even GRRM says Sansa is not blameless.

Seen it already - it's been brought up a few times. I said it was a trick and troll, which is maybe unfair, but it does give me total sense of humour failure. Let's go through it:

On 10/11/2020 at 12:07 AM, R2D said:

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall.

Specifically, he is talking about the fall of Ned. Not about any escape from the Tower of the Hand.

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Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her.

Just look at the spin he puts on that sentence!! It's not fair to name Sansa as mastermind of the entire coup, but anything short of that could be fair. Isn't that sweet support for the haters?

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But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc...

Not privy to all Ned's plans regarding Stannis and the gold cloaks - that implies she knew some of them. Which would be a flat falsehood. Sansa does not know that Joffrey is illegitimate; therefore obviously, obviously she doesn't know any plans to raise forces against Joffrey and make Stannis king.

Besides. Ned told Cersei about Stannis, and LF told her about the gold cloaks plan. Why is GRRM even bringing up these things? It's a big, fat troll.

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but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship,

The Wind Witch leaves on the evening tide, but Cersei must act immediately the king dies, which could be any moment. When the king is dead, either Ned or Joff will take the Iron Throne; it's as simple as that.

The Wind Witch comes too late to be a factor, and was never a secret anyway. The steward openly booked passage. People were going back and forth to the stables, preparing cartloads of non-essential luggage. The Tower of the Hand has been under surveillance from Day 1. No surprises, no secrets.

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how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command,

Unlikely that Sansa does know that.

  • Ned only gives Sansa information on a need-to-know basis. (He is angry that she witnessed his deployment of troops against Gregor.)
  • Ned changed the escort in the middle of the night.
  • The escort never assembled. Fat Tom was to lead it, and he was in the throne room with Ned. The escort is irrelevant.
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where Arya was that morning, etc...

Arya was in the Tower of the Hand. The Small Hall is in the Tower of the Hand - there is an explicit quote for this somewhere. (I had an idea that it might be just outside, but I was wrong.) So Arya was exactly where you would expect her be. If Sansa gave the specifics of the Small Hall, that might have earned Arya the special attention of a kingsguard, instead of a mob of wild-eyed and red-handed Lannister shock troops. Probably a good thing. Irrelevant to the fall of Ned though.

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all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

So tell me how. What he said in interview, and what he writes as fact in the books, are two incompatible things. This topic has been discussed for years, and I've never heard yet how Sansa could have helped Cersei in planning and timing her move.

I don't know why GRRM did this. I called it a trick and a troll, but it's probably more fair to say his interviews are aimed to be entertaining, to amp up the argument and focus - but definitely not to deflate interest by giving all the answers. It would like a comedian trying to explain why his jokes are meant to be funny. He's not going to do it.

 

 

 

ETA (Oct 23rd)

The Tower of the Hand, again!

The name is used both ways  - to mean the tower itself, and the tower plus associated buildings. So, we get 'the Small Hall in the Tower of the Hand', but we also get Arya leaving the Small Hall through one door and entering the tower through another.

Edited by Springwatch
word and ETA

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On 10/10/2020 at 12:42 PM, frenin said:

Wildfire was used in Winter by Aerys to heat the Red Keep...

As a warm welcome to Robert's rebellion?

All I remember is the pyromancers lighting wildfire lamps to impress Tyrion, but he noticed/knew they were put out double quick.

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Pyromancers know how to make it, not so much about how to properly use it in warfare setting, those two skills are simply not related with teach other.

They are related. But yes, pyromancers and soldiers would work together.

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And what's Cersei's council but a bunch of fools, incompetents and bootlickers??

Not as bad as they look.

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Pycelle.

Qyburn!  :D

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[Qyburn] "There is some news from Dorne that Your Grace may find of interest. Prince Doran has imprisoned Ser Daemon Sand, a bastard who once squired for the Red Viper."

[Cersei] "I recall him." Ser Daemon had been amongst the Dornish knights who had accompanied Prince Oberyn to King's Landing. "What did he do?"

"He demanded that Prince Oberyn's daughters be set free."

"More fool him."

"Also," Lord Qyburn said, "the daughter of the Knight of Spottswood was betrothed quite unexpectedly to Lord Estermont, our friends in Dorne inform us. She was sent to Greenstone that very night, and it is said that she and Estermont have already wed." [...]

"Eldon Estermont has taken a wife fifty years his junior," she said to Qyburn. "Why should that concern me?"

He shrugged. "I do not say it should... but Daemon Sand and this Santager girl were both close to Prince Doran's own daughter, Arianne, or so the Dornishmen would have us believe. Perhaps it means little or less, but I thought Your Grace should know."

"Now I do." She was losing patience.

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Listening to whom??  Where do we see those informants?? The only we get to see, and  she parades the proudly, are Taena and Qyburn.

  • LF points out a solider watching the Tower of the Hand, and identifies him as Cersei's spy.
  • Tyrion knows that Cersei hired all Sansa's maids, to spy on her.
  • LF hid Cat in a brothel - an extreme measure, so that she would not be tracked down. iirc, he was not hiding her from Varys, whose own spies spotted her in the first place. So she was being hidden from Cersei.
  • Tyrion wants to bring Shae into the Red Keep; he suggests the kitchens. Varys warns against this idea, saying that there are spies in the kitchens. He says hiding Shae from Cersei would be very difficult. (iirc)

ETA

  • Also - Tyrion pretending to be with Alayaya, but actually slipping through a hidden passage in a wardrobe, to a stables, then riding over to Shae's manse, in disguise - that is extreme if Cersei had no spies. How much time did Tyrion actually get with Shae, after all that?
Edited by Springwatch

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7 hours ago, Khal Eazy said:

The Sansa defenders kinda make me dislike her as a character even more. 

She has almost no autonomy in the entire story except for three instances. The first time when she backs up Joffrey's version of events at the Trident and the second time when she rats out her father's plan to Cersei. Each time she chooses against her family to selfishly get what she wants. The third time is when she lies for Littlefinger after he killed Lysa but that is less relevant and done out of self preservation.

Sansa is directly responsible for all the Stark men and women who died in the Tower of the Hand that didn't go with Ned to the Throne room by letting Cersei know exactly when and how Ned was going to act. Veyon Poole, Septa Mordane, Hullen, Syrio, and all other named and unnamed people in service to House Stark died because Sansa ratted them out because she's a selfish idiot. She knew she was acting against her father's wishes but she did it anyway. 

Ned was probably going to be captured or killed regardless (because he trusted his life to a man who tried to bang his wife) but everyone else could have gotten out. 

She almost even spoils Littlefinger's plan to get her out of the city saying she doesn't need Dauntoss anymore because the Tyrells wrapped her around their finger via Margery and an attempted betrothal to Willas. It only works out for her because Tywin intervened. 

She is the Fredo of House Stark although I may be doing a disservice to Fredo with that comparison. 

Wait, this made me think. Did LF help set up the match between Sansa/Tyrion to foil the Tyrells?

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7 hours ago, Khal Eazy said:

She almost even spoils Littlefinger's plan to get her out of the city saying she doesn't need Dauntoss anymore because the Tyrells wrapped her around their finger via Margery and an attempted betrothal to Willas.

The only thing she did wrong was not turning Dontos in to Lannisters. Guess it'd be better for her and anyone else (xept for Lannisters and LF), if she was married to Willas. Still cannot blame her, how could she know.

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On 10/11/2020 at 11:37 AM, Loose Bolt said:

Assuming that members of goldcloaks are hired either from King's Landing or areas near that city there should been many watchmen who would have hated Lannisters. After all if during sacking of KL someone had killed uncle of X, raped older sister of Y or burned old home of Z those watchmen would not have been loyal to Cercei. So in a way Ned could have assumed that goldcloaks would have hated Cercei and not supported her.

 

On 10/11/2020 at 12:00 PM, TsarGrey said:

Confirmed by Ironhand. ACoK, Tyrion IX.

This is said after Slynt triples the size of the Watch, though.

Yes, but it's very much like what Meribald/Elder Brother were describing in AFFC. The ordinary soldier found himself on one side or the other because his leader was a knight whose lord swore fealty to a high lord who chose to follow Robert. Or Rhaegar.

The higher ranks of the Gold Cloaks were offered much higher bribes than the average soldier.

It was the same when Tyrion bribed the Second Sons.

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9 hours ago, Khal Eazy said:

Sansa is directly responsible for all the Stark men and women who died in the Tower of the Hand that didn't go with Ned to the Throne room by letting Cersei know exactly when and how Ned was going to act.

Ned was going to act the moment Robert died. No one had any doubt about that.

I'd recommend the Sansa haters to reread Eddard XIV to make a more realistic assessment on which consequences may have had her actions.

In any case, a short timetable of the Eddard's downfall would go as follows:

  • 1:30 AM: Eddard is waken and brought to Robert. The dying king dictates his will. Ned thinks to himself that if Cersei had any sense, she "would take her children and fly before the break of day".
  • 2:00 AM: Eddard refuses Renly's offer.
  • 2:30 AM: Eddard orders Fat Tom to look for a ship to bring her daughters home, and writes a letter to Stannis.
  • 3:00 AM: Eddard talks to Littlefinger. Lord Baelish offers to bribe the City Watch.
  • 6:00 AM: Renly flees KL ("one hour before dawn")
  • 7:00 AM: Eddard wakes up.
  • 7:30 AM: Eddard breaks his fast with her daughters. Arya and Sansa are told that they'll leave KL with Fat Tom at the first evening tide. They should have everything packed by midday.
  • 7:45 AM: Sansa goes to Cersei.
  • 8:30 AM: Pycelle tells Eddard about Robert's death ("it was an hour later" [after the breakfast]). Eddard summons the council "at once".
  • 9:00 AM: Pycelle, Barristan, Varys and Littlefinger are at the Tower of the Hand when the "young king" summons the Small Council to the Throne Room in turn. Eddard is betrayed.

Now, try to imagine what would have changed if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei.  Do you believe that Cersei would have waited for Eddard to be oficially named Lord Regent? Would she ever allow Eddard to take command of the Kingsguard and let him take the iniciative? Even if Cersei hadhad no idea when or how Eddard's daughters would leave the City, her only reasonable course of action would be to strike as soon as Robert died.

Edited by The hairy bear

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Thats a nice timetable and parts of it could be accurate but we really can't know for sure what was happening during individual hours of the day like that. 

And Cersei seems to agree that Sansa's tip off was integral to how she executed her plan. 

"No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans." 

I can't give the exact page and chapter citation but thats from Feast during the chapter when Loras volunteers to storm Dragon Stone to free up the Redwyne fleet. 

I agree Sansa didn't know exactly what was gonna happen by telling Cersei but all that means to me is that she is slightly less morally culpable in that she didn't intentionally want them all dead. Sorta like a drunk driver doesn't intend to kill somebody but does anyway.

Edited by Khal Eazy

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2 hours ago, Khal Eazy said:

Thats a nice timetable and parts of it could be accurate but we really can't know for sure what was happening during individual hours of the day like that. 

Yes, but there is information there. Things that must have happened in a certain order. Time constraints. Supposing Cersei had anything to learn from Sansa, she had roughly 40 minutes to make a plan and execute it. That is a fixed timescale.

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And Cersei seems to agree that Sansa's tip off was integral to how she executed her plan. 

"No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans." 

I can't give the exact page and chapter citation but thats from Feast during the chapter when Loras volunteers to storm Dragon Stone to free up the Redwyne fleet. 

Cersei is an unreliable narrator. One of the most unreliable. You can see a progression in her memory of the event. (Haven't got the quotes; I'll look them up later.)

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I agree Sansa didn't know exactly what was gonna happen by telling Cersei but all that means to me is that she is slightly less morally culpable in that she didn't intentionally want them all dead. Sorta like a drunk driver doesn't intend to kill somebody but does anyway.

What exactly did she tell Cersei? How does Cersei change her plans in response? If Sansa had gone to her room after breakfast and stayed there, what series of events follow? Give me a scenario.

Edited by Springwatch

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Ok, the progression of the unreliable narrator; I think it goes:

  1. truth
  2. conscious fiction
  3. false memory syndrome

 

So Cersei's memory of Sansa's visit goes:

  1. truth: "Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?". This is 3 days after the event; Cersei remembers clearly and has no reason to lie.
  2. conscious fiction: "[...] Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans..."  This was later, in Clash. Cersei does have a reason to lie, because she hates being mocked by Tyrion, and does not want to talk about the true source of her information: the twincest conversation with Ned in the godswood.  Tyrion always mocks her about the twincest.
  3. false memory: No one had give Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard's plans. This is later still, in Feast.  She can't remember what the truth is.

 

Compare with that other famously unreliable narrative - the Unkiss:

  1. truth:  ... for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes wanting it to be over, but nothing happened.  This is in Clash; it's what actually happened.
  2. conscious fiction: Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.  This is in Swords. Sansa has been thinking about kissing the Hound - a conscious fiction, a fantasy.
  3. false memory: As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. This is in Feast, and happens again later in the chapter: She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her.

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On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

all thanks to Sansa spilling the beans of their departure.  the ports get closed and the ship infiltrated. 

Ned was valuable and only lost his head by unforeseen circumstances and again had he been the only one, likely would not have happened. but plot contrivance has him die for war to go into full swing. 

the comparison between Sansa and Joffrey is not absurd. they are both privileged and entitled brats that hold substantial status in politics. he the prince, she the bride to be. 

  • Are you saying that Cersei could have not closed the ports on her own?? She only needs the Goldcloaks to enforce that.
  • They were all valuable hostages and the Lannisters treat them like crap, Joffrey could've ordered his death regardless in the very own Black Cells.
  • Your very rationalization just proves why it's so absurd. 

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting,
though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for
your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we
sit,
and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

that is clear as day that safety is the issue. not everyone needs to be told every single detail to know why, but Sansa should be well aware of this especially since Ned himself is injured. 

As far as anyone can tell, Ned's guard are not Ned's daughters, she is not told more, nor is she told to distrust the Lannisters,nor is she told...

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

you know, the difference here is that Sansa is the obedient one and has little need for complete and detailed explainations whereas Arya has runoff on the Kingsroad, got lost in the castle and has to constantly be reigned in to behave. and Explaination to Arya makes more sense. and Sansa was given no vague information so there is that. 

So the difference is that Ned lately is paying no attention to Sansa, nor trying to understand her because he's busy and that backfires...  Sansa is the obedient one and the only thing she sees is that Aya is time after time being rewarded for misbehaving... which only reinforces her idea that, she's just being a little naughty, not commiting treason and certainly not playing the Game of Thrones.

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

oh Sansa had power and she used it. she went to the Queen and bam! A prisoner she becomes. she had the power to obey. her actions were willfully disobedient. she isn't powerless. she had information and gave it freely. 

Sansa has the same power as a peasant asking for audience,  you said that she's comparable with actual people with power, with armies to enforce them, with the ability to dictate laws or demand the head of great lords and be obliged.

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

No she wanted to remain in King's landing and be Queen. her actions all center around her dream prince and her status as a future Queen. You misunderstood what I said.  she got what she wanted which was to remain in kings landing with her prince, but it was a poisoned apple due to the cruelty of Joffrey and the death of Eddard Stark and of course her  precarious position as a noble hostage rather than an honored lady of the court. she has been brought low by her own selfish desires and diminutive world view. her overcoming that is growth. 

She wanted to remain and King's Landing alongside all the pageantry, Joffrey was just the cherry on the top but Sansa has been dreaming with living in the south since she was old enough to understand the fairy tales.

She has been brought low by the war and her family's fortunes, not because any selfish desires.

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

ok so, doesn't change that the escape plan was blown by Sansa . 

and Ned was the most Valuable because he was a HighLord. doesn't mean his daughters would be useless. When he dies Sansa becomes more valuable because she is of the Stark family and Jaimie has been captured. later as the remaining Stark clan starts disappearing, Sansa's value skyrockets as the schemers all try to utilize her claim for their own benefits. 

ok so hypothetically  Ned dies in black cells,  their coup was successful  and Sansa and Arya escape, the Lannisters will  have little bargaining power as they have no hostages. so obviously if Ned is dying, they have an invested interest in keeping him alive to trade wile he is still breathing and end the war. And they have the lack of a confession which affirms Joffery as Robert's heir while portraying the Starks as the baddies. 

 

  •  It does change that, as Cersei would act regardless.
  • Ned was the most valuable hostage and died right away. hisdaughters are there to try to keep Robb at bay, it fails, later on, Robb's heirs die, Sansa becomes a valuable assset until she herself is framed for kingslaying.
  • If Ned is dying, they have no bargaining tool, Robb would want vengeance and nothing says that Ned would even survive the extraction, nor they need a confession, a confession did not change a thing regardless.

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

no. she played politics. that is the game. her intention was to get them to prevent her from leaving King's landing to be with joffery and become his future queen.

She didn't play politics, begging the king's wife to convince his best friend to stay at King's Landig because you like the city very uch, it's not playing politics, not in any world.

 

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:56 AM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Lady's serve do they not? Arya has been in a serving role for a lot of the books were Sansa has been in a served position.  this in no way means Arya cannot be a lady. she has the same education as her sister.  and I guess that depends too on the type. is she a lady by courtesy, as a consort, or a ruling noblewoman? she plays the role of a boy to keep her identity  a secret why not as a lady if the situation presented itself? being a servant could be what Arya needs to be a good lady. 

Arya learns restraint and learns to keep her mouth shut. unfortunately Sansa  is submitting not restraining. 

being beaten is not the same as getting murdered, executed or tortured to death. Sansa's near miss was the bread riots in king's landing, but then again so were Joffery and Tommen's lives. almost died at blackwater.... threats are one thing,surviving an attempt is another.

,  oh framed yes and then whisked away like she was never there so her husband gets the blame. she and Tyrion are blamed not just Sansa. Tyrion getting thwacked in the face was almost getting killed. the difference is that people are not hunting her with an invested reason to kill Sansa. she isn't going hungry or looking for a place to stay etc. in a way Arya being incognito puts her in danger slightly more because her value is not known exept when it does become known by the brotherhood and then Sandor. 

Sansa is not in danger because of the value others have in her. they have an invested interest to keep her alive. yea sure Cercie could have slaughtered them all to prevent them becoming prizes of Stannis but that never happens not even close. 

Sansa is also catered to, well fed, dressed, has servants and freedom of the castle as opposed to Arya who has to find food, work her ass off and hope not be noticed by those who would do harm on her or her little pack. 

 

  •  Lady's serve... to whom exactly?? Arya has always struggled at court ad she at the end ignored her duties because Ned indulged and Sansa at Arya had the same education, it's just so happens that Sansa learned much more than Arya could ever do and that's why she is still alive, Arya's strenghts are others, which is why she could make it out of that wild riverlands ride alive.
  • In court?? No, she doesn't, she does as an apprentice of assasin however.
  • Being beaten daily is torture, she was entirely at Joffrey's mercy and about the rest... Am i talking about the Lannisters?? Why is relevant that Joffrey could've also died??
  • Sansa is framed with kingslaying, she is being hunted by the Lannisters with an invested intention to kill her and last time i checked, the fact that you are well fed while being a prisoner does not mean you cannot not be killed or used at any given time, it's like arguing that Theon was never in danger of dying because he was well treated by the Starks.

 

 

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On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:

As far as anyone can tell, Ned's guard are not Ned's daughters, she is not told more, nor is she told to distrust the Lannisters,nor is she told...

Ned's guards protect him and his household. she is told what she needs to know but she also knows a lot that is beneficial to Cercie. it should be painfully obvious that they are in a hazardous place when he explicitly tells his children that he is sending them away for their own safety especially after his  men are killed and he, injured. he tells them that. she is told not to let anyone know of their intentions.

On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:

So the difference is that Ned lately is paying no attention to Sansa, nor trying to understand her because he's busy and that backfires...  Sansa is the obedient one and the only thing she sees is that Aya is time after time being rewarded for misbehaving... which only reinforces her idea that, she's just being a little naughty, not commiting treason and certainly not playing the Game of Thrones.

Sansa being more behaved would require less attention as she is not acting out of the ordinary nor is she misbehaving except in the cases that involve  fighting with Arya.  Also Arya is pretty much alone after her friend is dead and wolf forced away whereas Sansa is doing well, has a friend, lovesick with the prince and dazzled by the tournaments etc. Ned pays attention to who needs him most. Sansa was doing fine despite Lady's death. Arya was not. and anyway what you said does not excuse her misguided disobedience.

On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:

Sansa has the same power as a peasant asking for audience,  you said that she's comparable with actual people with power, with armies to enforce them, with the ability to dictate laws or demand the head of great lords and be obliged.

I made no such claim. only that she is comparable in that her actions were involved political ramifications which in story is called the game of thrones.

Besides, who has to be of equal station, for it to count? when was that a requirement?

running off to Cercie was a political maneuver. Her interests coincide with politics. Marrying the Prince is political. Tattling to Cercie on the intentions to send them home via her father, Hand of the King, is political. 

On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:

She wanted to remain and King's Landing alongside all the pageantry, Joffrey was just the cherry on the top but Sansa has been dreaming with living in the south since she was old enough to understand the fairy tales.

She has been brought low by the war and her family's fortunes, not because any selfish desires.

Joffrey was her primary motivation not the rest. the rest were the cherry on top.

sansa is described by Cercie as being wet with love for Joffrey.

  she was brought low by her own actions.

On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:
  •  It does change that, as Cersei would act regardless.
  • Ned was the most valuable hostage and died right away. hisdaughters are there to try to keep Robb at bay, it fails, later on, Robb's heirs die, Sansa becomes a valuable assset until she herself is framed for kingslaying.
  • If Ned is dying, they have no bargaining tool, Robb would want vengeance and nothing says that Ned would even survive the extraction, nor they need a confession, a confession did not change a thing regardless.

Does not change that the escape Ned planned for his daughters was blown by Sansa.- Cercie may act still but may not have known where they would be or their intended route to leave.

 Sansa was always going to be a prisoner after any peace if made to keep Robb at bay. yea, it is because Cercie snatches her up the moment she divulges their escape intent.  it fails  because peace is never made with Robb due to the impulse execution of Lord Eddard Stark by King Joffrey Baratheon. she intended Sansa remain her hostage to ensure the terms were kept. - I don't think we were in disagreement of this.

as for the confession: it was part of the agreement which certainty required Ned's cooperation in order to take the black. the confession did change things. it strengthened Joffery's claim to the throne while incriminating the starks and the rival Baratheons, Lord Stannis and Lord Renly  as the aggressors in the war. Ned was never supposed to die. Joffery did that. they still have Sansa as a valuable asset.

On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:

She didn't play politics, begging the king's wife to convince his best friend to stay at King's Landig because you like the city very uch, it's not playing politics, not in any world.

she did play, whether she knew it or not. she tried to influence things to allow her image of reality to continue. like I said before,  it is playing politics as she tried to influence her father by getting the King to make Ned to let her stay but due to irrational fear of a fat man, she goes to Queen Cercie to prevent her leaving the city to stay with Joffery.  

On 10/14/2020 at 2:46 PM, frenin said:
  •  Lady's serve... to whom exactly?? Arya has always struggled at court ad she at the end ignored her duties because Ned indulged and Sansa at Arya had the same education, it's just so happens that Sansa learned much more than Arya could ever do and that's why she is still alive, Arya's strenghts are others, which is why she could make it out of that wild riverlands ride alive.
  • In court?? No, she doesn't, she does as an apprentice of assasin however.
  • Being beaten daily is torture, she was entirely at Joffrey's mercy and about the rest... Am i talking about the Lannisters?? Why is relevant that Joffrey could've also died??
  • Sansa is framed with kingslaying, she is being hunted by the Lannisters with an invested intention to kill her and last time i checked, the fact that you are well fed while being a prisoner does not mean you cannot not be killed or used at any given time, it's like arguing that Theon was never in danger of dying because he was well treated by the Starks.

Lady's serve their households they serve their husbands and depending on their station, they serve other ladies.  birthing heirs and managing household are their primary duties unless they rule in their own right or in the stead of their Lord husbands. For example, Catelyn serves house Tully by marrying Ned in Brandon's stead. she serves house Stark by birthing heirs. she is tasked with educating Robb in preparation for war, and eventually serves him when he becomes the New head of House Stark and later, King. Lady Maege Mormont Serves her house as it's matriarch when Jorah Mormont is in exile and serves House Stark as a Vassal Lady, Dacey Mormont serves King Robb as a bodyguard and her Mother who is head of House Mormont. . Sansa is alive because she is a useful idiot and others take advantage of that and need her alive. Arya has this same experience when her identity is revealed with the brotherhood, she is valuable enough to be worth a ransom.  

you said that Arya was filling more of a serving role. so I gave my argument.  you seem confused.  you said she almost died in a riot. I agree, but no more than the others were at risk including Joffery.  she is protected and kept safe by the lannisters.  it was not Lannister men that assaulted the royal procession. 

as for being beaten its isn't the same as facing death.  but tit for tat, Arya gets beaten as well. 

eh no Sansa may be being hunted but Tyrion is the target.  technically she isn't framed, Tyrion is. 

every aspect of her standard of Living in KL is better than what Arya experiences. but that isn't the point. Arya has different challenges sure but she overcomes those, Sansa doesn't she is passed around  after being knocked down a peg or two.  Sansa was never in danger of death on a basis like that of Arya due to who Sansa is in the realm  of politics, which is, a valuable asset to control.

her escape was planned by others and her treatment was done by others, Sansa does very little on her own. but this isn't the oppression Olympics. the topic of the post was who was the worst player in the game of thrones. I consider it to be Sansa Stark as she did play and was terrible at it. and the tangential argument has been devolved to who is worse, Arya or Sansa. my point there is that Arya is more adaptable than Sansa was and would likely survive Kingslanding if the roles were reversed. Sansa being a pretty docile dimwit would likely be raped on the spot on the road without sufficient protection yet Arya's unkempt look gives her a leg up in that matter to play the boy role to escape. but neither serve to answer the question who is the stupidest player in the game of thrones. 

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12 hours ago, lalt said:

The one who died first. Jon Arryn.

Jon Arryn was the administrator behind the Baratheon reign.  The same reign which brought Westeros down to the worst condition it has ever been in.  His management skills are bad.  But he was good at politics.  Stupidest was Robb Stark.  

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1 minute ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon Arryn was the administrator behind the Baratheon reign.  The same reign which brought Westeros down to the worst condition it has ever been in.  His management skills are bad.  But he was good at politics.  Stupidest was Robb Stark.  

Mine was a joke, paraphrasing TV show Cersei.

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7 hours ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the topic of the post was who was the worst player in the game of thrones. I consider it to be Sansa Stark as she did play and was terrible at it.

Even if I accept that she was a player, and I don't, she is nowhere near the stupidest.  She makes one serious mistake (going to Cersei) and the consequences of that are still unclear (and disputed).  Also, she is a child and has limited information.

Cersei and Theon both make long series of astonishly stupid decisions that land them on the Walk of Shame and Ramsay's dungeon, respectively, and they're both grown-ups with all the information they need.

I think the only reason Cersei beat Ned was that Ned seriously underestimated her venality, and she was outrageously lucky.  Sansa's errors don't hold a candle to those two.  Also, she has learned a lot since the first book, and I think is on the verge o f being a solid player by the end of Feast.

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On 10/13/2020 at 11:25 PM, Khal Eazy said:

The Sansa defenders kinda make me dislike her as a character even more. 

She has almost no autonomy in the entire story except for three instances. The first time when she backs up Joffrey's version of events at the Trident and the second time when she rats out her father's plan to Cersei. Each time she chooses against her family to selfishly get what she wants. The third time is when she lies for Littlefinger after he killed Lysa but that is less relevant and done out of self preservation.

Sansa is directly responsible for all the Stark men and women who died in the Tower of the Hand that didn't go with Ned to the Throne room by letting Cersei know exactly when and how Ned was going to act. Veyon Poole, Septa Mordane, Hullen, Syrio, and all other named and unnamed people in service to House Stark died because Sansa ratted them out because she's a selfish idiot. She knew she was acting against her father's wishes but she did it anyway. 

Ned was probably going to be captured or killed regardless (because he trusted his life to a man who tried to bang his wife) but everyone else could have gotten out. 

She almost even spoils Littlefinger's plan to get her out of the city saying she doesn't need Dauntoss anymore because the Tyrells wrapped her around their finger via Margery and an attempted betrothal to Willas. It only works out for her because Tywin intervened. 

She is the Fredo of House Stark although I may be doing a disservice to Fredo with that comparison. 

Joffrey was supposed to be part of her family and she didn’t speak against Arya. She said that she didn’t remember IIRC.

She shouldn’t have gone to Cersei. That was a dumb mistake. But she didn’t know everything that was going on and Cersei was going to be part of her family too, when she married to Joffrey. If Robert had been there, he’d have sent her back to Ned and their wouldn’t have been a problem. I’m not saying that she was right of course. She made some terrible mistakes. But she was 11.

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7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Even if I accept that she was a player, and I don't, she is nowhere near the stupidest.  She makes one serious mistake (going to Cersei) and the consequences of that are still unclear (and disputed).  Also, she is a child and has limited information.

Cersei and Theon both make long series of astonishly stupid decisions that land them on the Walk of Shame and Ramsay's dungeon, respectively, and they're both grown-ups with all the information they need.

I think the only reason Cersei beat Ned was that Ned seriously underestimated her venality, and she was outrageously lucky.  Sansa's errors don't hold a candle to those two.  Also, she has learned a lot since the first book, and I think is on the verge o f being a solid player by the end of Feast.

It’s worth remembering that the only land that the Ironborn have been able to keep in the North up until now are the Stoney Shore and Torrhen Square and both were conquered by a Theon and his men. What lands Theon in the dungeon was his identity crisis and the fact that he wanted to die fighting. For example, there’s a part where Black Loren suggests killing all of the smallfolk before Rodrik returns and Theon knows that’s the smart thing to do, but he doesn’t do it, because he’s attack

hed to the place and the people, in spite of his protestations. Before Rodrik returns, he allows some of his men to leave Winterfell and they manage to escape. He could have left too. He wanted to die fighting.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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9 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon Arryn was the administrator behind the Baratheon reign.  The same reign which brought Westeros down to the worst condition it has ever been in.  His management skills are bad.  But he was good at politics.  Stupidest was Robb Stark.  

The worst? That’s a massive exaggeration. Robert ruled during a long summer and the peasants thrived during his reign. He spent to much and created a debt crisis, but according to the Iron Bank, they were being payed regularly. The crowns incomes also massively increased under Littlefinger. Robert and Jon’s rule was far from great, but it was far from terrible too. They were just mediocre.

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On 10/7/2020 at 12:26 PM, The hairy bear said:

 

I completely agree with you here. Abandoning his brother without even warning him after Jon Arryn's death, waiting until there were already three other kings to put forward his claim, abandoning the religion practiced by the immense majority of the Westerosi and burning their gods... It was one stupidty after another.

I've never quite understood why Stannis didn't tell Robert about Cercei's children, especially after Jon Arryn was murdered.

We know that Ned didn't, because he was certain that Robert would immediately kill Cercei and her children, and Ned wanted to protect the children..Stannis however saw them as abominations, and I doubt he'd have the same reservations as Ned.. So why say nothing? He was at court long enough to know what Cercei was capable of..

Instead he just ran off to his island, knowing full well that his brother's life would be at risk of anyone else would find out.

I think Robert was the stupidest player in the game. I mean; he wasn't even trying.. not even a little bit.. oh well.. at least he was having fun.

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