Death Penalty

[Varysblackfyre321]

For anyone would like to continue discussing this particular topic.

[A True Kaniggit]

I think I ranted about this in one of my drunken ramblings.

I’d rather 999 guilty people spend their live’s in prison than take the chance one innocent person gets killed by mistake.  

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Yeah, the death penalty is insanity. None of the reasoning for its existence holds water--literally every reason can be factually refuted. One of the few things I appreciated that Hickenlooper did when he was Colorado's governor was come out on the record during the James Holmes trial (Aurora movie theater/batman shooting)--the death penalty was being sought--and Hickenlooper said if Holmes was sentenced to death, he would immediately overturn it. Luckily Colorado finally got rid of the death penalty this year.

Either way, even in the Holmes case, I see zero purpose in the death penalty. 

[Liffguard]

The death penalty is not a deterrent, but even if it was I'd oppose it.

The death penalty is expensive, but even if it wasn't I'd oppose it.

The death penalty results in the deaths of innocent people, but even if every person ever executed was guilty of horrific crimes I'd oppose it.

The death penalty is classist, but even if it applied to rich and poor alike I'd oppose it.

The death penalty is racist, but even if it was completely colour-blind I'd oppose it.

I simply cannot approve of any circumstance that involves taking a helpless person (however evil they may be, or however dangerous they were in the past, they're helpless at the time of execution), strapping them down so they can't even resist, and killing them in cold blood. It's a bone-deep revulsion. If someone is a clear and present threat to other people, and deadly violence is the only way to prevent them from doing harm in the moment, then so-be-it. But once someone is subdued and restrained, this no longer applies.

There are a lot of logical reasons to oppose the death penalty, but even if all of those issues were solved, I'd oppose it.

 

[BigFatCoward]

28 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

 

I’d rather 999 guilty people spend their live’s in prison than take the chance one innocent person gets killed by mistake.  

I agree, but there are obviously cases where there is no doubt as to guilt, where offences are caught on camera. Does that factor in? 

Personally some crimes are so abhorrent that I think the death penalty is too easy and quick. Let them rot in prison is a far worse punishment. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I agree, but there are obviously cases where there is no doubt as to guilt, where offences are caught on camera. Does that factor in? 

Personally some crimes are so abhorrent that I think the death penalty is too easy and quick. Let them rot in prison is a far worse punishment. 

I’m not a fan of this reasoning. I get it.

Some crimes such as rape, or murder, I think wanting the offenders to suffer is natural.

But rationally I don’t really see government executing someone not actively posing a threat to anyone as acceptable.

Our justice system needs to have dangerous people secured away and if possible reformed.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

25 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I agree, but there are obviously cases where there is no doubt as to guilt, where offences are caught on camera. Does that factor in? 

Personally some crimes are so abhorrent that I think the death penalty is too easy and quick. Let them rot in prison is a far worse punishment. 

 

17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m not a fan of this reasoning. I get it.

Some crimes such as rape, or murder, I think wanting the offenders to suffer is natural.

But rationally I don’t really see government executing someone not actively posing a threat to anyone as acceptable.

Our justice system needs to have dangerous people secured away and if possible reformed.

 

This just begs the question, is a life sentence not also a cruel and unusual punishment? If society has deemed a soul to be beyond rehabilitation, then what? A quick death or a life of misery? I can't say without specifics, but arguing that the latter isn't also cruel for the sake of being cruel is a bit misleading. 

[A True Kaniggit]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

This just begs the question, is a life sentence not also a cruel and unusual punishment? If society has deemed a soul to be beyond rehabilitation, then what? A quick death or a life of misery? I can't say without specifics, but arguing that the latter isn't also cruel for the sake of being cruel is a bit misleading. 

The goal would be to keep dangerous individuals separated from society where they can't cause harm. The fact the U.S. prison system is so shitty and dangerous that being confined in it counts as cruel and unusual punishment is a problem that needs to be rectified.

You know what? If an individual who has been deemed so dangerous for society that they must be contained would rather be dead, then I'd be OK with self requested execution for them.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

If society has deemed a soul to be beyond rehabilitation, then what? A quick death or a life of misery? I can't say without specifics, but arguing that the latter isn't also cruel for the sake of being cruel is a bit misleading. 

Except it's not being cruel for the sake of being cruel if they're freedom would be a threat to society or "deemed beyond rehabilitation."  Lifetime imprisonment is protecting society from that individual, and under your own conditions necessary.  Killing the individual is not necessary.

[Liffguard]

5 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The goal would be to keep dangerous individuals separated from society where they can't cause harm. The fact the U.S. prison system is so shitty and dangerous that being confined in it counts as cruel and unusual punishment is a problem that needs to be rectified.

 

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Except it's not being cruel for the sake of being cruel if they're freedom would be a threat to society or "deemed beyond rehabilitation."  Lifetime imprisonment is protecting society from that individual, and under your own conditions necessary.  Killing the individual is not necessary.

 

Agreed, the point of a life sentence isn't (or rather, shouldn't be) a punishment as such, but rather as a way to keep everyone else safe from a person too dangerous to ever be allowed to wander freely. And if the state of prisons is so barbaric as for this to constitute a punishment (especially a cruel and unusal one), then that's a separate problem to solve.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

You know what? If an individual who has been deemed so dangerous for society that they must be contained would rather be dead, then I'd be OK with self requested execution for them.

According to this, about ten percent of those executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976 are deemed "execution volunteers" - at least partially waiving the process they're entitled to.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The goal would be to keep dangerous individuals separated from society where they can't cause harm.

Well sure, but how exactly do we know if and when they can return to society, and moreover, should we assume that a person can never return? Should we condemn a 19 year old to life in prison when his or her cognitive development is incomplete? 

Quote

The fact the U.S. prison system is so shitty and dangerous that being confined in it counts as cruel and unusual punishment is a problem that needs to be rectified.

Agreed. Literally every level and sector of our judicial system needs massive reforms. 

Quote

You know what? If an individual who has been deemed so dangerous for society that they must be contained would rather be dead, then I'd be OK with self requested execution for them.

Likewise.

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Except it's not being cruel for the sake of being cruel if they're freedom would be a threat to society or "deemed beyond rehabilitation."  Lifetime imprisonment is protecting society from that individual, and under your own conditions necessary.  Killing the individual is not necessary.

Well I guess this then asks if that person can still provide anything to society. There are certainly cases where you can point to in which it does. Numerous former gang members serving life sentences have tried to counsel and convert younger inmates and kids who will likely be exposed to the temptations of joining a gang. That's a huge positive. Maybe they don't deserve to be in jail for life, then, if that's the path they follow. Others have no remorse, no benefit to society and are a financial drain. I'm not saying they should just be executed, but what benefit do they serve, and what remorse will they ever feel for what they've done?

[Heartofice]

The way I see it is the Death Penalty is really about vengeance more than anything else, and I don’t think vengeance is a good thing to base your society on. 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Others have no remorse, no benefit to society and are a financial drain. I'm not saying they should just be executed, but what benefit do they serve, and what remorse will they ever feel for what they've done?

It's not about whether the prisoner has any redeeming value to society or remorse, it's about the fact that the state executing prisoners is barbaric and archaic.

[A True Kaniggit]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Should we condemn a 19 year old to life in prison when his or her cognitive development is incomplete? 

No, I don't think so. And we just executed such a person within the last few days.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's not about whether the prisoner has any redeeming value to society or remorse, it's about the fact that the state executing prisoners is barbaric and archaic.

Isn't the NFL, you dirty 49ers fan? At least @Kalbear Total Landscaping just watches the Bears through a peephole these days. 

 

Jokes aside, a lot of what we do is barbaric and archaic. And yes, how many treat the death penalty is just as such. It's disgusting to see from the prior thread that people actually get paid to volunteer to be executioners. That should never happen, nor should families be involved in the process as a means of retribution. I would hope my remarks about feeding someone to a shark or throwing them into an active volcano would obviously been seen as satire, though perhaps not. But there are some cases in which the death sentence could be merited. Does it statistically reduce crime? I haven't seen any evidence to suggest it. However, there are some rare instances IMO in which a person has forfeited their right to live. But before we have a system that determines when that is so, we must address so many other flaws in the judicial system. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

No, I don't think so. And we just executed such a person within the last few days.

Which is also wrong. Most people's brains do not fully form until their mid 20's. They're really just kids until then. 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Jokes aside, a lot of what we do is barbaric and archaic.

Your whataboutism is beyond tiring at this point.  I do not think the state should execute prisoners because it's nauseatingly barbaric.  If you do, that's your problem.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Your whataboutism is beyond tiring at this point.  I do not think the state should execute prisoners because it's nauseatingly barbaric.  If you do, that's your problem.

Why, because it can't be denied? I don't think any reasonable person can say the death penalty is a good thing, but why this absolutist position? What exactly would you do with someone who is an obvious cause for death row in a world in which the death penalty didn't exist? Would you sentence them to a lifetime of solitude or reintroduce them to gen pop even if they aren't rehabilitated? 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why, because it can't be denied?

What can't be denied?  I don't even know what you're asking anymore.  The rest of your questions have obvious answers and I'm really sick of you being so obtuse, whether it's deliberate or not.