Death Penalty

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

What can't be denied?  I don't even know what you're asking anymore.  The rest of your questions have obvious answers and I'm really sick of you being so obtuse, whether it's deliberate or not.

I'm not being obtuse, just pointing out a flaw in your position absent several other reforms. If you unilaterally eliminate the death penalty, you would likely have to make several other changes as well, and then like I said before, discuss if lifetime sentences should also be axed.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m not a fan of this reasoning. I get it.

Some crimes such as rape, or murder, I think wanting the offenders to suffer is natural.

But rationally I don’t really see government executing someone not actively posing a threat to anyone as acceptable.

Our justice system needs to have dangerous people secured away and if possible reformed.

 

I think U.S. society will be so much better off when (if?) it moves past the justice system as a mode of suffering, payback, vengeance or whatever. Like you said, I get the instinct. I saw a documentary on Chris Watts recently (family murderer), and he's a vile, sick person. Part of me wants to see him suffer for what he did. 

But a bigger part of me has come to understand that nothing happens in a vacuum. There's no excuse for what these people do, but in our worst cases of murders, pedophiles, etc., it's most common to find that the guilty party's life was filled with horrible abuse, or in the case of serial killers, a significant case of head trauma. As Liff said about murdering helpless people no matter how evil they are, I wholly agree. A good society has to move beyond this kind of barbarism, if not at the very least, because we've executed innocent people--often due to corruption in law enforcement and prosecution. 

Norway's the exemplar of why restorative justice works. Even the vile Anders Breivik is treated like a human, which is more than he did for his victims. The culture, though, it representative of this, and until the U.S. finds a way to shift cultural awareness to something much more humane, I don't see how this kind of reform could ever work in this country. For example, the father of one of Breivik's victims has said he supports Breivik's restoration as a citizen (though it's unclear Norway will allow Breivik to ever go free as while the maximum prison sentence is around 20 years, the country can override that if they fear the prisoner has not changed, might pose a danger).

I hate the spectacle of the U.S. justice system where we constantly have access to trials, where when a vile person is facing the death penalty, we parade the deceased's significant others in front of cameras to either give their point of view in support of the death penalty, or show us all "what human compassion really is" by saying they forgive the killer and don't want to see the killer die. It's cruel. So much about the justice system is fundamentally broken, but the death penalty is the clearest symbol of this.

As 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

52 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

No, I don't think so. And we just executed such a person within the last few days.

His last words are tragic:

Among his final words, Mr. Bernard apologized to the family of the couple he had killed and for the pain he caused his own family, according to a report from a journalist in attendance. For his role in their deaths, he said, “I wish I could take it all back, but I can’t.”

“I’m sorry,” he said, looking at the witness room windows. “That’s the only words that I can say that completely capture how I feel now and how I felt that day.”

[DMC]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not being obtuse, just pointing out a flaw in your position absent several other reforms.

That is whataboutism.  Obviously there are tons of other prison reforms that are necessary and I obviously agree they need to be instituted.  That doesn't make the state killing prisoners ok.  Again, if you think it does, that's your problem, but it's not a flaw in my position or reasoning.  It's you changing the subject to skirt your own stance on the basic question of whether or not it's ethical for the state to kill prisoners.  Because the reality is all these mitigating circumstances you say are "flaws" in my position do not change the fact that the vast majority of Americans that are executed do not want to be executed - in spite of prison conditions or life sentences or any other factors you bring up.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, DMC said:

That is whataboutism.  Obviously there are tons of other prison reforms that are necessary and I obviously agree they need to be instituted.  That doesn't make the state killing prisoners ok.  Again, if you think it does, that's your problem, but it's not a flaw in my position or reasoning.  It's you changing the subject to skirt your own stance on the basic question of whether or not it's ethical for the state to kill prisoners.  Because the reality is all these mitigating circumstances you say are "flaws" in my position do not change the fact that the vast majority of Americans that are executed do not want to be executed - in spite of prison conditions or life sentences or any other factors you bring up.

But I have stated my position. I am okay with the death penalty, albeit in a very limited context, one in which I would think would reduce some of the problems discussed. I've never dodged this. What I have however pointed out is flaws with eliminating unilaterally without changing a number of other things. That doesn't make me right, but they are things to consider. Which is why judicial reform can't be done piecemeal. It must be comprehensive. 

[HoodedCrow]

I can’t think of of a good reason to keep the death penalty, other than to facilitate revenge and poor behavior all around. Imagine being a part of the process of state sanctioned domestic murder. Why? There are laws that can be passed to keep rare long term dangerous offenders from being released. The families of victims would be better off having a shorter trial, ( without another whole phase)and less of an adversarial system. The justice apparatus is broken from many points of view. Lethal injection is a disgusting use of the law and medical gear. We see Ned making dangerous mistakes in executing Gared without any serious trial and critical information is lost.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I am okay with the death penalty, albeit in a very limited context, one in which I would think would reduce some of the problems discussed. I've never dodged this. What I have however pointed out is flaws with eliminating unilaterally without changing a number of other things. That doesn't make me right, but they are things to consider.

First of all, the death penalty already is very limited from a statistical standpoint.  Since 1976, the annual number peaked at 98 in 1999.  So far this year it's at 17. 

Second of all, you have provided no logic for why the death penalty "reduces" any problems discussed.  Again, if at least 90% of Americans that have been executed did not want to be executed, that means that the "flaws" you're pointing out like prison conditions or lifetime sentences does not change the fact almost all the people actually being put to death would rather be alive and deal with such conditions than be dead.  How you think killing them "in a very limited context" can be part of a more humane "judicial reform" is just beyond the fucking pale.  Not to mention the overwhelming likelihood that if the death penalty was abolished that 90% would significantly increase, as it's safe to assume a lot of the remaining 10% have just given up and accepted their fate.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

39 minutes ago, DMC said:

First of all, the death penalty already is very limited from a statistical standpoint.  Since 1976, the annual number peaked at 98 in 1999.  So far this year it's at 17. 

Well that's good then, and suggests it's not a huge issue either way unless you're a hardliner. 

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Second of all, you have provided no logic for why the death penalty "reduces" any problems discussed.  Again, if at least 90% of Americans that have been executed did not want to be executed, that means that the "flaws" you're pointing out like prison conditions or lifetime sentences does not change the fact almost all the people actually being put to death would rather be alive and deal with such conditions than be dead.  How you think killing them "in a very limited context" can be part of a more humane "judicial reform" is just beyond the fucking pale.  Not to mention the overwhelming likelihood that if the death penalty was abolished that 90% would significantly increase, as it's safe to assume a lot of the remaining 10% have just given up and accepted their fate.

Curious, how would you feel in that instance? You don't strike me as the type that would just accept your fate.

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well that's good then, and suggests it's not a huge issue either way unless you're a hardliner. 

Curious, how would you feel in that instance? You don't strike me as the type that would just accept your fate.

The hell?  if you're against it it's still injustice, and it's representative of our entire concept of justice.  This is definitely an issue that transcends a statistic.

For example, even look at how it could affect the psychology of a would be criminal- if you've already committed a capital offense, why not commit more to cover it up?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

The hell?  if you're against it it's still injustice, and it's representative of our entire concept of justice.  This is definitely an issue that transcends a statistic

So is unlawful shootings by police officers. Which merits more of your attention? You can't fight every battle, Larry. 

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For example, even look at how it could affect the psychology of a would be criminal- if you've already committed a capital offense, why not commit more to cover it up?

I'm not sure this is applicable. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

So is unlawful shootings by police officers. Which merits more of your attention? You can't fight every battle, Larry. 

I'm not sure this is applicable. 

I don't understand any of this.  

edit: I'm sure you've maybe seen commentary from me and others re: police shootings.  I bet if you want to tackle it from a quantity standpoint you'd find there are probably dozens to hundreds of posts in this board re:police violence for every post about the death penalty.

It's applicable because it's something that resonates through society beyond just the number of deaths.  

As far as cause of deaths goes (and I'd count police shootings here) the death penalty is a drop in a bucket.  But it's not some incurable disease, it's something we actually decide to do.

[DMC]

16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Curious, how would you feel in that instance?

I have no idea what I would do or want or feel if I was on death row.  I think it's kind of pointless to speculate.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

I don't understand any of this.  

Are we not talking about the flaws within the judicial system?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I have no idea what I would do or want or feel if I was on death row.  I think it's kind of pointless to speculate.

As a thought exercise, try. Smoke a bowl if you want, I'll do the same. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Are we not talking about the flaws within the judicial system?

yeah, so?

[DanteGabriel]

I accept all the intellectual and moral arguments against the death penalty. I would support its abolishment. Even a murderer with a life sentence can do good with the rest of their lives.

I used to support the death penalty when I was younger. Probably even a decade ago or less, before I truly grasped the brokenness of our justice system. My emotional instincts are pretty Old Testament, and I would find a kind of grim satisfaction from seeing some scumbag Epstein types suffering terrible torments. I acknowledge it's not helpful, just owning it.

I'd support a voluntary death penalty, I guess, if a prisoner doesn't want to spend decades in prison.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As a thought exercise, try. Smoke a bowl if you want, I'll do the same. 

No.  Ruminating on what I'd do if I was on death row is not my idea of a good time.  And especially seems like a waste of weed.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I just hope officials are erring on the side of caution and not letting any unreformed murderers back into society where they could pose a danger to innocent people.

I would prefer that anyone that takes a life is removed from society for evermore except in maybe only the rarest of rare circumstances. I have almost no faith in the concept that such people can be reformed to the extent they no longer pose a threat to innocent members of the public and would rather officials not risk finding out.

Actually once incarcerated, they are probably an even greater threat. So if your not going to execute them at the very least keep them out of society, preferably forever.

[Martell Spy]

What a major bummer. We now have 2 death threads.

[A True Kaniggit]

Just now, Martell Spy said:

What a major bummer. We now have 2 death threads.

Negative.

We have a thread about the death penalty. 

And a separate thread about death in general. 

Quit spreading fake news.