Football: A Blizzard of Games

[Mexal]

4 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Martinelli is a better player than Aubameyand, I'm saying it now.

Martinelli is a better left winger. He should own that position going forward and if Auba plays, has to be through the middle.

Really liked Smith-Rowe today too.

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Martinelli is a better left winger. He should own that position going forward and if Auba plays, has to be through the middle.

 

Problem is left wing is Saka's best position too, though he's adjusting to the right. And Martinelli can play up front.

My main thing though is Aubameyang doesn't make off-the-ball runs into space and I haaaate it. Always waiting for the pass to be played first. WHereas Martinelli is excellent at it.

[Mexal]

11 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Problem is left wing is Saka's best position too, though he's adjusting to the right. And Martinelli can play up front.

My main thing though is Aubameyang doesn't make off-the-ball runs into space and I haaaate it. Always waiting for the pass to be played first. WHereas Martinelli is excellent at it.

I see Auba do it but in the side when Auba plays, not a single player willing to play the ball behind. 
 

All I want is a quick front that is willing to have some positional flexibility and weave. Seems Arteta allowed it today and for once, the team looked dangerous. Too often it’s just Auba and Willian standing on the sidelines waiting for the ball because that’s the zone Arteta wants them to play in. It’s a waste.

[polishgenius]

Tbh I don't think it's just an Arteta thing. It's never been something I thought Auba was particularly strong on, always thought he's been a bit 'wait for the pass then use his pace' type. No Walcott by any means, but not close to a Vardy type either.

And Lacazette for all the problems he's had usually does give it a go, which I feel like is why he did get the shout today.

[polishgenius]

Ooooh, it's all gone Jose Mourinho.

He even hurled Timo Werner under the bus specifically by saying he hadn't offered anything on or off the ball and that's why he got yanked at half time.

[Mark Antony]

He’s playing Werner out of position right? At least that seems to be a huge complaint I’ve seen Chelsea fans have about Lampard. Wonder if he will start getting Ole like pressure now that they have only 3 points from the last 12.

[Heartofice]

30 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

He’s playing Werner out of position right? At least that seems to be a huge complaint I’ve seen Chelsea fans have about Lampard. Wonder if he will start getting Ole like pressure now that they have only 3 points from the last 12.

Isn’t Werner used to playing in a front 2? I find it unlikely Chelsea would play that way, which is why I never understood why they bought him 

[Mark Antony]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Isn’t Werner used to playing in a front 2? I find it unlikely Chelsea would play that way, which is why I never understood why they bought him 

Yeah from that I understand he’s best in sort of a shadow striker role. Ngl I only watched a couple of Leipzig games over the last few years. 

[Consigliere]

Werner should be playing as a #9. He's wasted out on the LW and the goals have dried up for him being constantly stuck out there. It was understandable at first when Pulisic was injured and Werner is capable of filling in in that position but once Pulisic got back, Werner should have been moved up top. Lampard was also primarily using a 4-2-3-1 last season but has inexplicably switched to 4-3-3 this season after spending loads on Havertz only to use him in a midfield three or on the RW when it's obvious to all and sundry that he is much more productive as a CAM or Secondary Striker type role. Mount is being used in a deeper midfield role as well this season and his production has also dried up.

[ljkeane]

I hardly watch any Bundesliga so I don’t know but I was under the impression that he played anywhere across a front three? I thought that was why Liverpool wanted him?

In general though I wouldn’t be rushing to any conclusions about any players signed this year. They’ve had to come into a new league with hardly any preseason. I think Werner and Havertz will probably be fine.

[Heartofice]

My understanding that he would generally play in a sort of 424, with a bigger strike partner. Clearly being an inside forward on the left is a different role requiring slightly different skills, no wonder it’s not working out for him, even up front on his own requires a different game.

So why did they buy him? What was the thinking? All the other players the bought suggested some sort of 4231 or 433, he seems like an odd one.

[polishgenius]

Werner is a 9, but to be slightly fair to Lampard, I don't think that's really been the issue or at least not the main cause of it. It's not as if he's not getting chances or involved in play, he's just missing chance after chance.

That said, to do what he just did to a player clearly shorn of confidence seems pretty terrible management, and like Consigliere said continuing to play him out of position even when wingers are fit is odd.

 

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

My understanding that he would generally play in a sort of 424, with a bigger strike partner. Clearly being an inside forward on the left is a different role requiring slightly different skills, no wonder it’s not working out for him, even up front on his own requires a different game.

Tbf like when you're a world class player you're expected to be able to play in more than one very specific formation. Werner's strength is off-the-ball movement on the shoulder of a defender to make runs in behind. There's no particular reason to believe a player like that has to be playing in a two-man partnership with a bigger bloke. Out of options available to Chelsea to plan to lead a line, there weren't many better- Europe isn't rife with world class outright 9s.

 

 

 

 

[Consigliere]

 

[Heartofice]

20 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Tbf like when you're a world class player you're expected to be able to play in more than one very specific formation. Werner's strength is off-the-ball movement on the shoulder of a defender to make runs in behind. There's no particular reason to believe a player like that has to be playing in a two-man partnership with a bigger bloke. Out of options available to Chelsea to plan to lead a line, there weren't many better- Europe isn't rife with world class outright 9s.

I always find that a bit of an unfair criticism thrown at players at the top level, some players can just be really good at one thing. Not everyone needs to be a universalist in a Pep side.

But I guess you would need to have more about you if you were expected to play in midfield or in a front 3 than if you were up front in a 2. That sort of wide forward can come in a variety of forms, but I guess the ideal role model for Werner could be Mo Salah, who has that speed and off the ball movement to break past people. Salah has more to his game than just that though, he needs a first touch, dribbling skills to find that space, does Werner have that?

The most reliable source of player scouting information, Football Manager 2021 suggests not! 

https://fmdataba.com/21/p/548899/timo-werner/

[A Horse Named Stranger]

52 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I hardly watch any Bundesliga so I don’t know but I was under the impression that he played anywhere across a front three? I thought that was why Liverpool wanted him?

If you are refering to Havertz. Yes, he can play pretty much all the roles. Just the CAM role is his best position.

Werner is a CF, that's by far his best position. He can also play on the wing, but he really is primarily a CF.

 

Anyway. This now looks like Chelsea went for all the big name signings in the last window, without a clear idea what to do with them. To quote an Irish philosopher: Failing to plan, is planning to fail. Altho, for a while it looked like Chelsky got things going, and would definately end up top three. Now it looks disjointed again, with all the pieces being out of place.

[ljkeane]

6 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

If you are refering to Havertz. Yes, he can play pretty much all the roles. Just the CAM role is his best position.

Werner is a CF, that's by far his best position. He can also play on the wing, but he really is primarily a CF.

I meant Werner but, sure, Havertz too.

Wolves aren’t going to pay us loads of money for Origi? I don’t think they get how the transfer market is supposed to work. Teams overpay us for fringe squad players then Edwards buys undervalued players off everyone else.

[Heartofice]

My guess is that a lot of Chelseas thinking was financial, I never understand football finances, especially when it comes to someone as crooked at Abramovic, but Chelsea have been running a model of recruitment, especially in regards to it's youth and loan system that seems almost entirely based on making money. 

On the face of it, it makes very little sense to bring in all these new players, to unsettle a team of young home grown talent and a inexperienced manager, when nobody else was spending that money. But it might be that they just see it as an investment, gobble up all the brightest talent, you can always sell them a couple of years later even if it doesn't work out, for decent money. If it does work out then you basically get stupid money off of some oil rich arab run club and you are sorted. 

[Consigliere]

I don't think a lack of planning is a fair accusation to level against Chelsea's board. They needed a CF and Werner was the best CF available who has an excellent scoring+assist record in a top league and was available for a cut price. They needed a CAM - Mount was first choice and Barkley never really earned Lampard's trust. Havertz is a highly rated young player who in theory is an upgrade over both Mount and Barkley. They needed a winger, LB, CB and GK and signed Ziyech, Chilwell, Thiago Silva and Mendy to fill those positions. Their board made good signings in the exact positions that needed strengthening. As a result, Chelsea easily have the third best squad in the league. It's not the board's fault that Lampard has thus far failed to get the best out of a strong squad.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

I don't think a lack of planning is a fair accusation to level against Chelsea's board. They needed a CF and Werner was the best CF available who has an excellent scoring+assist record in a top league and was available for a cut price. They needed a CAM - Mount was first choice and Barkley never really earned Lampard's trust. Havertz is a highly rated young player who in theory is an upgrade over both Mount and Barkley. They needed a winger, LB, CB and GK and signed Ziyech, Chilwell, Thiago Silva and Mendy to fill those positions. Their board made good signings in the exact positions that needed strengthening. As a result, Chelsea easily have the third best squad in the league. It's not the board's fault that Lampard has thus far failed to get the best out of a strong squad.

Yeah, but it really doesn't look like Lampard is entirely sure what to do with that squad.

What's Chelsea's planned desired starting XI and formation?

 

I know I'd try something like this.

 

                                   Werner                     

Pulisic/Odoi                                                          Ziyech/Odoi

                       Havertz            Mount

                                    Kante

Chilwell     Thiago Silva/Christensen     Rürdiger/Zouma             James

                                     Mendy

 

Alternatively:

                             Abraham Werner

                                       Havertz/Mount

Pulisic/Odoi                                                          Ziyech/Odoi

                                        Kante

Chilwell       Thiago Silva/Christensen    Rüdiger/Zouma       James

                                      Mendy

Both formations feel a bit unbalanced (not super solid at the back) to me. Of Course you could also go the 4-2-2-2-2 road, with Kante + Mount/Havertz in central midfield and Abraham/Werner upfront. 

[Consigliere]

4-2-3-1. The same formation that Lampard primarily used last season. 

                       Mendy

James   Zouma   Silva   Chilwell 

                Kante    Kovacic

    Ziyech       Havertz      Pulisic

                       Werner