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The Lord of the Crossing

Dareon was a victim of Arya's brand of "justice"

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Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

Edited by The Lord of the Crossing

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23 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

 

Arya is emotionally disabled and mentally unstable.   It's Dareon's bad luck to run into her.  

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3 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

He claims that it was consensual

Also, I'd like to point out, if it was for consensual, it'd make far more sense for Rowan to either kill him or send him away with a threat, both as a means of preserving his daughter's honor. Sending him to the Wall ensures he can talk and has nothing to lose if he does. Sure, it's far away, but rumors do spread.

Second off, in the one scene we see of him, Rowan seems to have a decent sense of justice.

So it being consensual and Daeron being sent to the Wall for it doesn't really make sense, both from a practical POV and from what little we know of the character of Rowan.

I think it's far more likely it actually was rape, and Rowan only allowed him to go to the Wall because of the aforementioned sense of justice.

Also there's a whole parallel with Marilion and stuff.

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Dareon is a kind of character that makes you feel sorry for him (for how his life turned out) and makes you hate him too (for abandoning Sam and Maester Aemon). Yet, I don't think it was a fair move from Arya to kill him. He didn't know the guy the way he knew his other victims. All he knew was that Dareon was a Black Brother.

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also, I'd like to point out, if it was for consensual, it'd make far more sense for Rowan to either kill him or send him away with a threat, both as a means of preserving his daughter's honor. Sending him to the Wall ensures he can talk and has nothing to lose if he does. Sure, it's far away, but rumors do spread.

Second off, in the one scene we see of him, Rowan seems to have a decent sense of justice.

So it being consensual and Daeron being sent to the Wall for it doesn't really make sense, both from a practical POV and from what little we know of the character of Rowan.

I think it's far more likely it actually was rape, and Rowan only allowed him to go to the Wall because of the aforementioned sense of justice.

Also there's a whole parallel with Marilion and stuff.

He would achieve nothing with changing his backstory and lying about his past. That's why it is likely true.

Either way, If I was a honorable Lord, and a singer would rape my daughter, I'd kill him. If a simple peasant singer would've slept with my daughter, I would've given him the chance of taking the black. Lord Rowan probably knew his daughter. Or he was so honorable that he gave the chance of taking the black even for the man who raped his daughter.

Either way it is illogical to think Dareon raped that girl. Imagine being a singer at a lord's court, then you suddenly try to rape his daughter. What you're gonna do next? Await for your execution? How do you run away if the girl runs for help instantly? And consider that a Lord can afford to look after you with dogs on horseback. It makes no sense, that's why it wasn't a rape. Dareon wasn't a bad guy unless he abandoned Sam and Aemon. And it wasn't fair for him to be killed by Arya, that's what the Kindly Man said too. Because Arya know nothing about his past (including why he was sent to the Wall). I'm totally fine with every act of Arya, except for this, and I think it's fair.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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4 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

Did Arya killing him have anything to do with rape, or him trying to escape the Nights watch?  If he was trying to escape nothing else needs to be said beyond you disagreeing with her authority to carry out that sentence. 

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2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Can you prove that she is all that and not a traumatised 10 years old?

Killing Daeron was wrong but yeah she is also a traumatised kid. Lets not judge her the same way we would an adult, there is a reason most countries in the world set their age of criminal responsibility to begin at an age that is older than 10 years old

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7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

 

Arya is mentally ill.  Of course she's not able to make decisions with regards to justice.  She's not sane.  The girl wrote down a list of people to kill.  That's not normal for Westeros or any other society.  

58 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Killing Daeron was wrong but yeah she is also a traumatised kid. Lets not judge her the same way we would an adult, there is a reason most countries in the world set their age of criminal responsibility to begin at an age that is older than 10 years old

Most of the leading characters are children.  So we either judge them all as adults or we don't.  The age at which a person is considered an adult in a lot of countries today is 18.  All but Tyrion is below this age.  The point is irrelevant in Arya's case because she's no longer sane.  

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4 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Most of the leading characters are children.  So we either judge them all as adults or we don't. 

Yeah, that's one of the many drawbacks of GRRM making his characters so young. Personally I do judge all the child characters as children rather than adults but its up to other readers to make up their own minds.

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Just now, Lady_Qohor said:

Yeah, that's one of the many drawbacks of GRRM making his characters so young. Personally I do judge all the child characters as children rather than adults but its up to other readers to make up their own minds.

It is up to the reader. 

Arya is mentally ill.  She could take the insanity defense in a modern court.  Arya is Arkham Asylum level of mad.  I choose to judge Arya as an adult because her crimes are vile and worse than even most adults would commit in her own world.   

Spoiler

I include what we learned from her preview chapters in forming my opinion of Arya

 

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25 minutes ago, Rondo said:

her crimes are vile and worse than even most adults would commit in her own world. 

You are right. The only worse I could think is torturing children to get informations out of their father.

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9 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Dareon is not the most mature man to ever wear the black.  But we can all agree that he was twice the victim of injustice.  The first came from Lord Rowan and his daughter at Goldengrove.  And the second injustice came from Arya Stark.  Arya Stark murdered Dareon in Braavos.  Arya's thirst for blood and revenge is not justice. 

We do not "all agree," nor do we all even accept the premise of your argument. Who knows what really happened with Lord Rowan's daughter? Dareon says it wasn't rape, which is what all rapists say, so his account of things isn't convincing. And he broke his Night's Watch vows, the penalty of which is execution. How is Arya doing any different than any other Westerosi would have done? Why the double standard?

Edited by Nathan Stark

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1 hour ago, Rondo said:

Arya is mentally ill.  She could take the insanity defense in a modern court.  Arya is Arkham Asylum level of mad.  I choose to judge Arya as an adult because her crimes are vile and worse than even most adults would commit in her own world.   

  Reveal hidden contents

I include what we learned from her preview chapters in forming my opinion of Arya

 

Prove it.

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2 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

We do not "all agree," nor do we all even accept the premise of your argument. Who knows what really happened with Lord Rowan's daughter? Dareon says it wasn't rape, which is what all rapists say, so his account of things isn't convincing. And he broke his Night's Watch vows, the penalty of which is execution. How is Arya doing any different than any other Westerosi would have done? Why the double standard?

Arya does many things rightfully. But she has to realise that she has no right to kill anyone who she thinks deserves it. Life wasn't too good to Dareon, but little did Arya know about this when she killed her. I also explained earlier why it makes no sense for a singer to rape a Lord's daughter in the girl's bed, but people usually reply without reading the whole topic (big mistake). 

I'm nowhere near against Arya, tho. This is the only occasion I can agree with what she did. And the Kindly Man was right about it: People with the ability to kill anyone should not judge anyone without knowing both sides of the coin.

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10 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I also explained earlier why it makes no sense for a singer to rape a Lord's daughter in the girl's bed, but people usually reply without reading the whole topic (big mistake). 

It doesn't make sense for Marilion, either, and yet he does try it, doesn't he?

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4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Dareon is a kind of character that makes you feel sorry for him (for how his life turned out) and makes you hate him too (for abandoning Sam and Maester Aemon). Yet, I don't think it was a fair move from Arya to kill him. He didn't know the guy the way he knew his other victims. All he knew was that Dareon was a Black Brother.

He would achieve nothing with changing his backstory and lying about his past. That's why it is likely true.

Either way, If I was a honorable Lord, and a singer would rape my daughter, I'd kill him. If a simple peasant singer would've slept with my daughter, I would've given him the chance of taking the black. Lord Rowan probably knew his daughter. Or he was so honorable that he gave the chance of taking the black even for the man who raped his daughter.

Either way it is illogical to think Dareon raped that girl. Imagine being a singer at a lord's court, then you suddenly try to rape his daughter. What you're gonna do next? Await for your execution? How do you run away if the girl runs for help instantly? And consider that a Lord can afford to look after you with dogs on horseback. It makes no sense, that's why it wasn't a rape. Dareon wasn't a bad guy unless he abandoned Sam and Aemon. And it wasn't fair for him to be killed by Arya, that's what the Kindly Man said too. Because Arya know nothing about his past (including why he was sent to the Wall). I'm totally fine with every act of Arya, except for this, and I think it's fair.

 

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Arya does many things rightfully. But she has to realise that she has no right to kill anyone who she thinks deserves it. Life wasn't too good to Dareon, but little did Arya know about this when she killed her. I also explained earlier why it makes no sense for a singer to rape a Lord's daughter in the girl's bed, but people usually reply without reading the whole topic (big mistake). 

I'm nowhere near against Arya, tho. This is the only occasion I can agree with what she did. And the Kindly Man was right about it: People with the ability to kill anyone should not judge anyone without knowing both sides of the coin.

Plenty of rapists go around firmly believing that what they did isn't "rape." "She wanted it," they say. "She was playing hard to get." "She was such a tease she must have wanted it." Marrilion almost rapes Sansa while employing similar "logic;" "all baseborn girls are wanton, so stop being such a tease."

The problem with your argument is that you are assuming innocence on Dareon's part. What if he plied the girl with wine so that she was drunk when he raped her? What if he played the charming nice guy for a while and used coersion to get her clothes off? If you coerse a person into having sex when they don't really want to have sex, it is still rape.

And while we're at it, let's just get this out of the way. Dareon is not all that bright. Is it likely he was stupid enough to violently force himself on a noblewoman? No. But it is still possible.

My point is that it is fully possible and even likely that Dareon believes he is innocent of raping Lord Rowan's daughter. That doesn't mean he is, because rape comes in many, many different forms. We only have Dareon's side of the story, and his account basically boils down to "she was moaning, so she wanted it." We don't have the woman's point of veiw here, only Dareon's very biased perception of her point of view. So we can in no way say that he is actually giving an accurate version of events.

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16 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

And while we're at it, let's just get this out of the way. Dareon is not all that bright. Is it likely he was stupid enough to violently force himself on a noblewoman? No. But it is still possible.

That possibility is pretty low, tho.

And you may get yourself into the whole "Dareon didn't know it was rape", but how wouldn't he know if he get into the girl's bedroom? On this stage, this whole "he didn't know" theory fails. Then he was either telling the truth or was lying.

And, again, him telling the truth actually makes sense, since he even refers to the situation when he's drunk, when he gave a damn about everything, he was telling that how unjust life was with him.

And I'm really trying not to be offensive, but you seem to believe that Dareon was a bad guy because this way Arya's hands would be cleaner. But that's not the case, that's what the Kindly Man said too. That all Arya knew was that the guy abandoned the Watch, nothing more.

Quote

This was a lesson that Arya understood, unlike some readers on this forum.

 *TWOW SPOILER*And the case of Dareon is nothing like the one with Raff the Sweetling.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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4 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

That possibility is pretty low, tho.

And you may get yourself into the whole "Dareon didn't know it was rape", but how wouldn't he know if he get into the girl's bedroom? On this stage, this whole "he didn't know" theory fails. Then he was either telling the truth or was lying.

And, again, him telling the truth actually makes sense, since he even refers to the situation when he's drunk, when he gave a damn about everything, he was telling that how unjust life was with him.

And I'm really trying not to be offensive, but you seem to believe that Dareon was a bad guy because this way Arya's hands would be cleaner. But that's not the case, that's what the Kindly Man said too. That all Arya knew was that the guy abandoned the Watch, nothing more.

 *TWOW SPOILER*And the case of Dareon is nothing like the one with Raff the Sweetling.

People are capable of self delusion, you know. Marrillion firmly believes that Sansa secretly wanted to have sex, which is a delusion. You are assuming that Dareon was innocent of raping this girl and working backwards from there. I am not assuming anything, and even admit the possibility that Dareon may in fact be innocent. But things are a lot more complex than you seem to want to admit.

Not every girl who invites a singer into her bedroom wants to actually have sex. It's possible this Lady Rowan was Sansa's age and wanted to hear Dareon play. It's possible she did want to have sex. It's possible that she raped him. We don't know. We know only what Dareon tells us, and Dareon has every reason to believe the version of events where he is entirely innocent. Until and unless we have the woman's  account of all this, we simply can't be as sure as you seem to be about what the truth is.

16 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And, again, him telling the truth actually makes sense, since he even refers to the situation when he's drunk, when he gave a damn about everything, he was telling that how unjust life was with him.

This argument basically exonerates every frat boy out there who laments about being accused of date rape in his cups. Maybe Dareon is telling the truth. But maybe he isn't. He has every motivation to lie, even and especially to himself. My point is that your argument is not wholly sound here, because it takes Dareon's story at face value. I say we absolutely should not do that. We should hold open the possibility that Dareon is guilty of rape after all.

Finally, my argument is not meant to clear Arya's hands. Arya is beside the point. She did not kill Dareon because he might have raped someone, she killed Dareon because he admitted to abandoning the Night's Watch, which is a crime that is punishable by execution in her culture. You could argue that she did not have the authority to kill him. She didn't. But not that she had no reason to. She did. It seems rather that you are trying to clear his name in order to make his murder at Arya's hands wrong, which I think it was in any case. That still does not mean we should let him off the hook for potentially raping someone.

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