Will Aegon carry a false Blackfyre?

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know the reference about the Darksabre, apologies.  The point is that Blackfyre is the sword of Targaryan Kings and should communicate Aegon's legitimacy to the masses.  It would be quite the proverbial cherry on top for this dark horse virtually no one in Westeros knows is a player.  I like how the table is set for Aegon whomever he is to be manipulated in so many ways right under the noses of so many people.   It is a well thought out publicity stunt at the very least, a daring coup at it's worst.  An accessory such as a legendary magic sword will give all Westeros something to ponder while rumors of Daenaerys and her dragons spread like wildfyre.  I hope Aegon & Co. have Aegon The Conqueror's crown while they're at it.  

I’m not sure about the legitimacy clause, since the Golden Company was the last party known to have the sword, which could cast doubt on the claim.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre.

 

Exactly.  Blackfyre works for either potential fathers here in loudly symbolic ways.  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m not sure about the legitimacy clause, since the Golden Company was the last party known to have the sword, which could cast doubt on the claim.

I think for the reader you nailed it...however, Westeros is war torn and weary.  Winter is coming with its famine and illness and freezing cold the Lannister/Tyrell regime is unlikely to address.  There is enough text mentioning a Targaryan Restoration and the Lannisters have fewer friends every day.  The smallfolk or less involved or more remote people of Westeros will embrace Aegon in hopes of real change.   Cersei is not a beloved ruler or mother of a ruler.  People will beg to be free of her by the time Aegon really shows his hand.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

Boom! A replica of Rhaegar's armor since the original one was smashed by Robert. He washes the blue from his hair, dons an armor of gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen picked with rubies on the breast. Who do you think Aegon will remind the men old enough to remember Rhaegar?

I did write something about the sword and the armor here since we're now way off topic.

It's well worth the read.

[Angel Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think for the reader you nailed it...however, Westeros is war torn and weary.  Winter is coming with its famine and illness and freezing cold the Lannister/Tyrell regime is unlikely to address.  There is enough text mentioning a Targaryan Restoration and the Lannisters have fewer friends every day.  The smallfolk or less involved or more remote people of Westeros will embrace Aegon in hopes of real change.   Cersei is not a beloved ruler or mother of a ruler.  People will beg to be free of her by the time Aegon really shows his hand.  

People might want to watch those hands when they’re shown. They might be greyscaled.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m not sure about the legitimacy clause, since the Golden Company was the last party known to have the sword, which could cast doubt on the claim.

I'm sorry I missed you live, but I was having a lot of fun reading through all this.  As a rather more interested in the swords than many readers reader, they are much like characters themselves in my humble opinion.  Blackfyre belongs in both worlds, red and black dragons.  That the Blackfyre Rebellions failed shouldn't negate the fact that Daemon Blackfyre had a lot of support in Westeros.  He was a rock star in his day and people loved him.  He may have been the real king among all the siblings, half siblings true and bastard children of Aegon IV.   This is where the discussions about trueborn and not so much really illustrates how wrong the monarchy succession rules were at the time Aegon's children killed each other.  We have examples of brothers full and half who work as teams, 1 leading and the other supporting the lead.    Torrhen Stark and Brandon Snow come to mind as quickly as Daeron T 2 and Brynden Rivers.   I am as fully behind Blackfyre pointing to usurpers and pretenders as to the sword of kings.  I just think some of those kings it should have pointed to are some of the bastard born or second or third or fourth sons...or daughters, but that's another discussion.  That Blackfyre implies one and the other thing I think it's safe to say it points to both and the tragedy of inheritance at the top level.  

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

Boom! A replica of Rhaegar's armor since the original one was smashed by Robert. He washes the blue from his hair, dons an armor of gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen picked with rubies on the breast. Who do you think Aegon will remind the men old enough to remember Rhaegar?

I did write something about the sword and the armor here since we're now way off topic.

I mean if the armor is a metaphor then idk what the hell Lightbringer is lol. 

Yea Rhaegars armor would be pretty cool and all his fans would swoon, but not the GC. Theyre not, nor ever been, Targaryen supporters

But interesting theory and plausible 

[Jaak]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't believe Valyrian Steel can be faked.  Jamie can have a (ceremonial) gold sword and there are plenty of shining or rusty steel swords which is just normal metallic color.   This smoky grey to black is not a natural color that could be mimicked.  OM is a good guess as it is described as black, but there are distinct differences between a long sword and bastard sword.   A good half foot at least.  I would imagine Blackfyre's appearance is well known and people would not be fooled by a substitute.  Blackfyre makes more than one statement or implication about its bearer.  

No, it isn´t.

Valyrian steel cannot be faked (and Euron wears Valyrian armour). But you could pass a different Valyrian sword for a specific one.

We are directly told that there are more Valyrian blades around in Essos than in Westeros. Arakhs are specifically rare - but Caggo has no surname or house and his arakh has no name. Straight Valyrian swords are rare and valuable in Essos, but lots of them are not named or tied to long-lived houses like those in Westeros. Golden Company can just have captured some straight Valyrian sword in Essos and pass it for Blackfyre. They are NOT limited to Orphanmaker - just one of the many swords that have never been to Westeros.

Recognize Blackfyre? Only those who fought Ninepenny War 40 years ago could have seen it, if even then. Besides. a sword would be worn sheathed much of time. Just how detailed were descriptions of Blackfyre, to tell it apart from another straight Valyrian sword of matching length?

[Bullrout]

No.  It's a case of Real Sword, False Dragon. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Recognize Blackfyre? Only those who fought Ninepenny War 40 years ago could have seen it, if even then.

That's the thing, isn't it? The only battle that we know Blackfyre was present for sure was at the Redgrass Field. Bittersteel didn't give it to his nephew Daemon II Targaryen. And the Blackfyre kings that he crowned, Haegon and his son both died in Westeros, but no sword mentioned. Maelys fought Barristan, if he had the sword, then Barristan would have picked it up to return it to the Targaryens, but again, nothing mentioned about the sword. 

Blackfyre is a power symbol for Daemon's descendants because that's the thing that lends them legitimacy, something that Bittersteel knows, but he doesn't pass the sword down the line. What's he holding on to the sword for, exactly? He may not have supported Daemon's first heir, but he put crowns on the heads of the others.

My conclusion is that sometime between the Redgrass Field and the crowning of Haegon I Blackfyre, the sword was gone. Stolen back, I'm thinking. 

Quote

Besides. a sword would be worn sheathed much of time. Just how detailed were descriptions of Blackfyre, to tell it apart from another straight Valyrian sword of matching length?

All we know about Blackfyre is that it's a bastard sword, which is a match for Longclaw. We don't know what Blackfyre's hilt / crossguard even look like. 

[Jaak]

38 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

All we know about Blackfyre is that it's a bastard sword, which is a match for Longclaw. We don't know what Blackfyre's hilt / crossguard even look like. 

The Qohorik skill used to usefully refashion Ice into two blades is presented as not common. But hilt and crossguard are not required to be visibly Valyrian steel. Which means altering the hilt of a Valyrian sword is easier.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Jaak said:

No, it isn´t.

Valyrian steel cannot be faked (and Euron wears Valyrian armour). But you could pass a different Valyrian sword for a specific one.

We are directly told that there are more Valyrian blades around in Essos than in Westeros. Arakhs are specifically rare - but Caggo has no surname or house and his arakh has no name. Straight Valyrian swords are rare and valuable in Essos, but lots of them are not named or tied to long-lived houses like those in Westeros. Golden Company can just have captured some straight Valyrian sword in Essos and pass it for Blackfyre. They are NOT limited to Orphanmaker - just one of the many swords that have never been to Westeros.

Recognize Blackfyre? Only those who fought Ninepenny War 40 years ago could have seen it, if even then. Besides. a sword would be worn sheathed much of time. Just how detailed were descriptions of Blackfyre, to tell it apart from another straight Valyrian sword of matching length?

A long sword is 3 to 4 feet long.   A great sword is 5 to nearly 6 feet long.   Bastard swords are in between.   The blades are wider than long swords which speaks to the configuration of the pommel.  Many of the pommels of the named VS swords have very specific adornment that is easily identifiable to people who were raised without VS in their proximity as evidence by Catelyn Tully's recognition of both Dark Sister and Heartsbane.    While I appreciate your argument about some unknown Essosi VS sword is possible my personal take is that it is not really plausible.   The Essosi swords outside Caggo's arakh are not drawn to the reader's attention.  Though I could be in error, I take this omission to mean they are not important to the Westeros story.  

Blackfyre gets a special mention in F&B when it is placed with Aegon in his funeral pyre and darkens.   There are many reasons this is important, but for this conversation I think it is supposed to distinguish the color from Longclaw.  Red Rain is sometimes depicted as a red blade by artists.   While we have no text specifically detailing the color of this blade, we also have nothing saying it isn't.   I don't know that Red Rain is actually red and reserve that cool possibility for words from GRRM before getting too excited about it.   To general descriptions we only have the 3 basic types of VS swords an axe and an arakh.  Our subcategory would contain Widows Wail, Dark Sister and possibly Oathkeeper which are no doubt all distinguished by their length and width as specially configured long swords.   We only have 2 bastard or one and a half hand swords in Blackfyre and Longclaw.  Without more information about missing swords the only swords we know for sure are great swords are Heartsbane, Ice and Brightroar.  A basic long sword could be substituted for another so long as the color of the blade isn't specifically set aside to distinguish it.   Orphan Maker is black and is therefore readily identifiable but it isn't big or wide enough to be Blackfyre.   It would be very hard to sell a thinner shorter blade as Blackfyre.  

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

We don't know what Blackfyre's hilt / crossguard even look like. 

We do know that.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/27/Blackfyre_by_Velvet_Engine.png

It's a picture of the Blackfyre-sword from the World of Ice and Fire book, thus it's a canon. There are two dragons on its handle, and a red stone on top of the pommel.

 

We don't know what that stone is, whether it's ruby or something else, but my bet is that it's a red garnet. And part of it appeared in Dunk&Egg novels:

The Hedge Knight "He had piled the old man's things under an oak. The cloth purse contained three silver stags, nineteen copper pennies, and a chipped garnet; as with most hedge knights, the greatest part of his worldly wealth had been tied up in his horses and weapons."

The Mystery Knight ""We have twenty-two pennies, three stars, one stag, and that old chipped garnet, ser.""

I think that that chipped garnet is a piece of stone from Blackfyre's pommel, and that Daemon I Blackfyre gave it for his baby-son, Duncan the Tall, born by Princess Daenerys Targaryen, and who was the real reason of the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

Also the sword was mentioned in the books for the last time when Targaryens confiscated it from Haegon I Blackfyre, in 219. Dunk and Egg also participated in that battle and did something heroic there. Could be that the sword was then given to Dunk, who possibly was escorting Bittersteel to The Wall. I think that that's when Bittersteel will see that Dunk has that chipped garnet, and he will realise who Dunk really is, and will reveal to him that he is a Blackfyre-bastard. And that's how Bittersteel will manage to escape (with the sword), and Dunk will help him.

[Curled Finger]

On 2/6/2021 at 6:19 AM, Jaak said:

The Qohorik skill used to usefully refashion Ice into two blades is presented as not common. But hilt and crossguard are not required to be visibly Valyrian steel. Which means altering the hilt of a Valyrian sword is easier.

It would be easier to switch out a hilt.  The problem I see here is that Blackfyre is nearly black where Longclaw is only described as dark.  What level of dark would make the difference.  If the blades are close in color then I think your pommel switch could work.  

[Sigella]

Am I the only onw who wonders if carrying Blackfyre might be a liability?

It’s a generational traitors sword. Sure it once belonged to Aegon tC, but now its given its name to five rebellions and at least one big war, so connotations isn’t all sunshine and rainbows.

 

I do love this about (f)Aegons armor though, it’d be too awesome if he had one with rubys like Rhaegars! It would also put a nice twist in Danys dream of Rhaegar in armor, lifting his visor and seeing herself, it could be turned into a big psychological drive of doubt or guilt.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

10 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Am I the only onw who wonders if carrying Blackfyre might be a liability?

I'm pretty sure it is, especially since Aegon is already being called a pretender. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Am I the only onw who wonders if carrying Blackfyre might be a liability?

It’s a generational traitors sword. Sure it once belonged to Aegon tC, but now its given its name to five rebellions and at least one big war, so connotations isn’t all sunshine and rainbows.

 

I do love this about (f)Aegons armor though, it’d be too awesome if he had one with rubys like Rhaegars! It would also put a nice twist in Danys dream of Rhaegar in armor, lifting his visor and seeing herself, it could be turned into a big psychological drive of doubt or guilt.

The fact that the Golden Company, traditional supporters of the Blackfyres and enemies of the Targaryens, is backing (f)Aegon is a giveaway; in the case of the sword it would also be suspect for the same reasons. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The fact that the Golden Company, traditional supporters of the Blackfyres and enemies of the Targaryens, is backing (f)Aegon is a giveaway; in the case of the sword it would also be suspect for the same reasons. 

I think it's a mistake to assume that the GC's support of Aegon is a giveaway to his real identity. George has given him too many parallels to Egg for the answer to be a giveaway. He planted his seeds in both directions. He gave him one thing that could indicate that he could be a Blackfyre vs a whole bunch that parallel him to Egg and even to Jon Snow, Jaehaerys, Daeron I. 

[Jaak]

We are not told of what became of the original Blackfyre when Maelys was killed, but we are not directly told it was lost.

Note that Golden Company was NOT crushed, and continued to exist.

If for whatever reasons Maelys was not wielding Blackfyre in his duel with ser Barristan, and Blackfyre along with Aegor´s gilt skull was safe in Golden Company camp, Golden Company can simply still have it.

Whether later captains-general like ser Myles Toyne and ser Harry Strickland wielded Blackfyre or whether they treated it as a treasure not to display lightly, openly handing it over to Aegon would merely affirm that Golden Company is serious about Aegon.

[Back in Black-Snow]

Why would the Golden Company follow someone/thing they know is false and fake?

Edit to add: I am referring to the references made that they have a sword they could pass off as Blackfyre.