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Targaryeninkingslanding

(Theory) The Massacre at Castle Black

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The Night's Watch is weaker now more than ever. The Baratheon host that replied Mance's horde has gone south, and those same wildlings are now south of the wall. Why have they not spread out? Why do they not raid? Because they have a new King. Not Mance, not Stannis. No, Freefolk follow the man, and Jon gained his crown in the same way Jon stole Ygritte; accidentally in doing what he thought was right. He has made himself Both feared and loved by Wildlings. Certainly some hate him, but they're not the ones who stabbed him. No that was the Crows. The Freefolk are already behind Jon, we're ready to go to war with him, and they won't take the treachery well. Those Brothers left at Castle Black, maybe not all but many, will be overwhelmed by the wildlings and massacred (Thankfully most of Jon's friends have been sent away). Queen Selyse will be captured. Her Daughter may even be burned as Val warned. Doing so may be the only way for Melisandre to Survive, and if Stannis is dead, Shireen is of Queen's blood and may catalyst Jon's revival. Like Dany in Drogo's pyre, his hair will burn away and will grow back white, no longer a black crow, he will be The White Wolf, Aejon Targaryen, King of the Wall.

At least  I hope so.

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This is brilliant! It never occurred to me that the Wildlings would consider Jon their king. It does follow with their own logic though, even if Jon doesn't know it. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

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i just love the love that happens here every once in a while

REJOICE!
 

& it is a neat idea about what the Wildings people might consider about Jon. thanks!

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Posted (edited)

I think they either leave and take the Night Fort, or the Night's Watch leaves and takes it, or Stannis' men do so. Someone is going to take it. Whoever is most likely to do a repeat of "The Night's King and his Corpse Bride".

On the subject of Jon as a Wildling king. It's pretty clear Mance wrote the pink letter. And I think Mance always knew the free folk would have to adapt to live south, to have a castle, be a bit more like kneelers, but he never wanted to tell them. An alliance with a Stark heir is the best outcome to make sure the free folk are protected instead of plunging them in a war with the whole north. Val hasn't been married, but Stannis and co. were trying to. The idea that marrying Val would secure an alliance with the free folk has been setup. Mance would get Jon and Val married, ruling over Winterfell. He would do what Bael could not, and finally he wouldn't just sing songs of greater men.

Jon being the leader of the free folk is I think key to what will motivate him to give his support to Daenerys later, as I believe they will be attacked, possibly even enslaved by factions of Essos such as the GC or Braavos. Dany would be the only one willing to stop that. And she always ends up with people in her team who the people of Westeros would see as enemies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)

Quote

The condition and quality of Otherness (the characteristics of the Other) is the state of being different from and alien to the social identity of a person and to the identity of the Self.[5] In the discourse of philosophy, the term Otherness identifies and refers to the characteristics of Who? and What? of the Other, which are distinct and separate from the Symbolic order of things; from the Real (the authentic and unchangeable); from the æsthetic (art, beauty, taste); from political philosophy; from social norms and social identity; and from the Self. Therefore, the condition of Otherness is a person's non-conformity to and with the social norms of society; and Otherness is the condition of disenfranchisement (political exclusion), effected either by the State or by the social institutions (e.g., the professions) invested with the corresponding socio-political power. Therefore, the imposition of Otherness alienates the person labelled as "the Other" from the centre of society, and places him or her at the margins of society, for being the Other.

Dany and her army will be the Others the people of Westeros will be actually afraid of, not the grumpkins up north.

Edited by Egged

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The Wildlings do not see Jon as their king.  They were going to battle the Boltons to save their king, Mance Rayder.  I support Mance + Lyanna = Jon theory.  So it is possible for Jon to inherit the leadership of the Wildlings from Mance.  However, that does not make him king of the north unless the Wildlings can beat the feudal lords, which is everybody in the north, in battle.  No lord of the seven kingdoms would accept the Wildlings as the majority and a traitor of the nights' watch as their king.  The most probable outcome is a fractured people.  The north will be broken up into tribes.  Jon will lead one of those tribes if they can accept a wight as their leader.  

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The theory makes sense. If White Walker is a descriptive phrase for “Walks on white”. Someone who walks on snow or just a snow shoe. It may make all the wildlings the walkers of the white lands. 
Interesting if it refers to immigration across an ice bridge.

If it’s a snow shoe, could that mean Jon is an old boot? Or will he walk in someone else’s shoes?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

The theory makes sense. If White Walker is a descriptive phrase for “Walks on white”. Someone who walks on snow or just a snow shoe. It may make all the wildlings the walkers of the white lands. 
Interesting if it refers to immigration across an ice bridge.

If it’s a snow shoe, could that mean Jon is an old boot? Or will he walk in someone else’s shoes?

Does the term "White Walker" even appear in the books?  It may have been used once or twice, figuratively, but not on a regular basis. I think that's just an HBO thing. I always figured that they needed it for the show, where people hear the words instead of seeing them on a page.  "Wight" sounds the same as "white;" and you can't see the capital O in "Other."  So those terms would have made for some confusing dialog.

Edited by Aebram

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17 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

The Night's Watch is weaker now more than ever. The Baratheon host that replied Mance's horde has gone south, and those same wildlings are now south of the wall. Why have they not spread out? Why do they not raid? Because they have a new King. Not Mance, not Stannis. No, Freefolk follow the man, and Jon gained his crown in the same way Jon stole Ygritte; accidentally in doing what he thought was right. He has made himself Both feared and loved by Wildlings. Certainly some hate him, but they're not the ones who stabbed him. No that was the Crows. The Freefolk are already behind Jon, we're ready to go to war with him, and they won't take the treachery well. Those Brothers left at Castle Black, maybe not all but many, will be overwhelmed by the wildlings and massacred (Thankfully most of Jon's friends have been sent away). Queen Selyse will be captured. Her Daughter may even be burned as Val warned. Doing so may be the only way for Melisandre to Survive, and if Stannis is dead, Shireen is of Queen's blood and may catalyst Jon's revival. Like Dany in Drogo's pyre, his hair will burn away and will grow back white, no longer a black crow, he will be The White Wolf, Aejon Targaryen, King of the Wall.

At least  I hope so.

Yeah, they probably saw strength in Jon. But Jon is mortally wounded, if not dead, and the wildlings now know that Mance is still alive. So it will be interesting to see where their allegiances lie going forward, especially now that they are all safe behind the Wall and the Others don't seem all that interested in pursuing them.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Aebram said:

Does the term "White Walker" even appear in the books? 

Thank you. Man, I had to actually look it up as I wasn’t sure. The show can really massage the mind towards corrupted thoughts. Like I sometimes think 3eyed raven instead of 3eyed crow.

Tell them, Sam . . . tell them how it is upon the Wall . . . the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold . . ."   :Feast Sam4

This could read as 3 things. Wights,Walkers, and creeping cold.

Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. Dance Dragon Jon5

This may also be 3 things. Wights, Whites, and dead things.

Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the whitewalkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night's Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. 
World of Ice and Fire: Long Night

Despite the efforts? The first men of the Night watch banded together? So not a United group. Banded? As in chain maybe?

The children made their homes in the vast primeval forest that once stretched from Cape Wrath to Cape Kraken, north of the Iron Islands (today all that remains of this great wood are the kingswood and the rainwood), and the giants in the foothills of the Red Mountains and along the rugged stony spine of Massey's Hook.
WOIAF: Children of the Forest 

This last one I just thought was always interesting. Locations mentioned and stuff but not the North woods.

And if ice is the same as water, could a Bravosi Water Dancer walk on snow as well as water? A human that has worged with a water strider?

The Gerridae are a family of insects. pleuston

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

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On 3/25/2021 at 5:32 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Thanks. You Starks are alright.

And you Targaryens are pretty cool. Peace, my friend.

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Posted (edited)

I am almost certain that when it says the Others were beaten and fled to the icy north, it means "the people who were different from us", meaning they became what we know them as today much later on.

I post this often but really think it is relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)

Quote

In phenomenology, the terms the Other and the Constitutive Other identify the other human being, in their differences from the Self, as being a cumulative, constituting factor in the self-image of a person; as acknowledgement of being real; hence, the Other is dissimilar to and the opposite of the Self, of Us, and of the Same.[1][2] The Constitutive Other is the relation between the personality (essential nature) and the person (body) of a human being; the relation of essential and superficial characteristics of personal identity that corresponds to the relationship between opposite, but correlative, characteristics of the Self, because the difference is inner-difference, within the Self.[3][4]

The condition and quality of Otherness (the characteristics of the Other) is the state of being different from and alien to the social identity of a person and to the identity of the Self.[5] In the discourse of philosophy, the term Otherness identifies and refers to the characteristics of Who? and What? of the Other, which are distinct and separate from the Symbolic order of things; from the Real (the authentic and unchangeable); from the æsthetic (art, beauty, taste); from political philosophy; from social norms and social identity; and from the Self. Therefore, the condition of Otherness is a person's non-conformity to and with the social norms of society; and Otherness is the condition of disenfranchisement (political exclusion), effected either by the State or by the social institutions (e.g., the professions) invested with the corresponding socio-political power. Therefore, the imposition of Otherness alienates the person labelled as "the Other" from the centre of society, and places him or her at the margins of society, for being the Other.[6]

The term Othering describes the reductive action of labelling and defining a person as a subaltern native, as someone who belongs to the socially subordinate category of the Other. The practice of Othering excludes persons who do not fit the norm of the social group, which is a version of the Self;[7] likewise, in human geography, the practice of othering persons means to exclude and displace them from the social group to the margins of society, where mainstream social norms do not apply to them, for being the Other.

 

Edited by Egged

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On 3/25/2021 at 5:10 PM, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

The Night's Watch is weaker now more than ever. The Baratheon host that replied Mance's horde has gone south, and those same wildlings are now south of the wall. Why have they not spread out? Why do they not raid? Because they have a new King. Not Mance, not Stannis. No, Freefolk follow the man, and Jon gained his crown in the same way Jon stole Ygritte; accidentally in doing what he thought was right. He has made himself Both feared and loved by Wildlings. Certainly some hate him, but they're not the ones who stabbed him. No that was the Crows. The Freefolk are already behind Jon, we're ready to go to war with him, and they won't take the treachery well. Those Brothers left at Castle Black, maybe not all but many, will be overwhelmed by the wildlings and massacred (Thankfully most of Jon's friends have been sent away). Queen Selyse will be captured. Her Daughter may even be burned as Val warned. Doing so may be the only way for Melisandre to Survive, and if Stannis is dead, Shireen is of Queen's blood and may catalyst Jon's revival. Like Dany in Drogo's pyre, his hair will burn away and will grow back white, no longer a black crow, he will be The White Wolf, Aejon Targaryen, King of the Wall.

At least  I hope so.

The White Walkers will be the ones to revive Jon.  You are partially right about Jon coming back changed.  He will come back as a creature of the cold, an ice wight.  His mind will have lost a lot of his memory and his humanity will begin to face as the direwolf instinct starts to take over.  Arya is imprinted on his mind and I believe he will seek her out. 

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I really hope this happens. It feels thematically right to me too

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How is he going to burn Shireen if he's at Winterfell and she's at Castle Black? Does he have a magic carpet that can fly through a massive snowstorm? No, unfortunately :) he doesn't.

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4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

How is he going to burn Shireen if he's at Winterfell and she's at Castle Black? Does he have a magic carpet that can fly through a massive snowstorm? No, unfortunately :) he doesn't.

I never said he was going to do it right now. But he will be the one to do it, Martin himself has confirmed that in an interview for a book that came out recently.

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On 3/28/2021 at 7:06 AM, Allardyce said:

The White Walkers will be the ones to revive Jon.  You are partially right about Jon coming back changed.  He will come back as a creature of the cold, an ice wight.  His mind will have lost a lot of his memory and his humanity will begin to face as the direwolf instinct starts to take over.  Arya is imprinted on his mind and I believe he will seek her out. 

His resurrection might be a combo of old gods, fire and ice. Bran is lurking around and Mel and Val are conveniently close. Kill the boy, let the man be born. Yeah, he will be changed. 

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