Who has the authority to declare that oaths are null?

[divica]

For example, joffrey expels barristan from the KG but did his position as king give him the moral authority to do it?

Who can declare tyrion dead so that sansa can marry someone in the vale? Who will take responsability if comes back to life? Can he argue about the validity of his marriage?

And about jon. As LC can he release himself from the NW? At least lawfully he wouldn t be a deserter...

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, divica said:

Who can declare tyrion dead so that sansa can marry someone in the vale?

The wedding can be annulled on the grounds of no consummation.

2 hours ago, divica said:

And about jon. As LC can he release himself from the NW? At least lawfully he wouldn t be a deserter...

I can see that going in three different ways. One is that with his death his vows are completed, there was nothing in the oaths about second life. Two is that there is no Wall and no Night’s Watch at the end and the last one isabout him being the King and that there will be more important thinks than some archaistic vows.

[divica]

1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

The wedding can be annulled on the grounds of no consummation.

But anulled by whom? A king or the high septon? And doesn t tyrion need to be heard?

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

Just now, divica said:

But anulled by whom? A king or the high septon? And doesn t tyrion need to be heard?

If there is no consummation what is to be told? No consummation means no marriage all it would need is an examination and if someone needs the wedding to be dissolved all they have to do is saying that Sansa is not properly married. Tyrion’s, great and very polite, decision to not have a bedding ceremony will be crucial on the annulment of the wedding.

[Springwatch]

What Varys said: power lies where people think it lies. Joffrey could dismiss Barristan because people were willing to obey him at that time. Maybe it will set a precedent, maybe it won't.

Jon could create a precedent too - but he needs support from his brothers, and anyone else whose support he needs (lords who could forcibly overthrow him, or refuse to send new recruits, or supplies etc)/

[Lord Lannister]

I really think some people are trying too hard to find subjective loophole in the wording/circumstances of certain marriages/contracts/oaths. People are going to think whatever suits their agenda to think about the validity of such things.

It comes down to a simple principle. Might makes right. What the people in power say/enforce is what's going to be valid and right in the end.

[The Young Maester]

Laws and rules can be taken under interpretation. The same applies to oaths.

Jon justifies allowing the wildlings south of the wall because the nights watch vows say “protect the realms of men”. However another noble will likely disagree by saying wildlings aren’t part of the realms of men.

If you can find a justifiable excuse to break an oath (no matter how far fetched it is), than nothing can stop you. 

[nyser1]

In this society, power is perceived as being in the hands of the lord you serve (going all the way up to the King ( and High Septon for religious matters). With that said, it is as Varys said that power lies where people belief it resides. If a King makes a claim but is perceived weak or countered by a lord who is perceived to be stronger, what value is his authority?

[Lord Varys]

That is a weird question. In relation to the KG it is pretty obvious that the king decides who he wants as bodyguard and who not. Or do you think the king could be forced to keep a man as bodyguard he loathed or the loathed bodyguard appeal to some 'higher authority' if the king were to take his armor and weapons from him and threw him out on the street?

Not very likely.

We already know who could get Sansa her annulment - the High Septon or a council of the Fatih (whatever that might be). But this doesn't mean Tyrion couldn't still later claim he and Sansa are lawfully married - although it is not very likely that many people would listen to him.

There is so far no way to wiggle out of the NW vows ... and I expect nobody to ever try, especially not Jon, because that would be bad form. The way for him out of that is going to come with the destruction of the Wall when the NW as an institution will cease to exist.

If he were to turn his back on the NW and the mission to defend the realms of men against the Others in favor and instead tried to wear crowns, win glory, take wives, and father children he would pretty much suck as a hero. Because he already understands - or claims to understand - that crucial fight is with the NW. And he would lose all standing with the men there if he no longer tried to keep his vows or be part of the institution.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, divica said:

But anulled by whom? A king or the high septon? And doesn t tyrion need to be heard?

 

It can be annulled  by a High Septon or by a Council of Faith. 

 

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is so far no way to wiggle out of the NW vows ... and I expect nobody to ever try, especially not Jon, because that would be bad form. The way for him out of that is going to come with the destruction of the Wall when the NW as an institution will cease to exist.

 

Or he dies, therefore fulfilling "it will not end until my death". 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Or he dies, therefore fulfilling "it will not end until my death". 

As I said, if he did that it would be very bad form. He should continue doing his duty at the Wall, etc. And the idea of him doing that as king or lord or with a wife and children would just set very bad precedents. I mean, if the Lord Commander can do that, why not everybody else, too?

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

As I said, if he did that it would be very bad form. He should continue doing his duty at the Wall, etc. And the idea of him doing that as king or lord or with a wife and children would just set very bad precedents. I mean, if the Lord Commander can do that, why not everybody else, too?

Everybody else is probably not going to resurrected, unless they're wights.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

Everybody else is probably not going to resurrected, unless they're wights.

Sure, but it still sets a precedent. Barristan was thrown out of the KG because he failed to save Robert, and then KG could be dismissed for other reasons as well as that one.

People could think: 'Well, yeah, the Lord Commander died and all, but he wasn't *really* dead because then he would have never come back, so why cannot we wear crowns and win glory and father children, too?

I mean, I could see this as an eventual rationalization for Jon to leave the NW if things there went to hell or he had severe problems with what was going on there and couldn't do anything about it or had the need to go to some other place for some reason ... but it isn't something he is likely to cite immediately after his resurrection.

Because so far the one coherent trait in his arc is that he has understood the danger the Others pose and wants to stop them. He couldn't do that if he left the Wall.

[Angel Eyes]

Tywin believed he had the authority to annul oaths, remember when he tries to persuade Jaime to be released from his vows as a Kingsguard?

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tywin believed he had the authority to annul oaths, remember when he tries to persuade Jaime to be released from his vows as a Kingsguard?

He was going to make a "suitable gift to the Faith"  in order for it to be set aside. 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but it still sets a precedent. Barristan was thrown out of the KG because he failed to save Robert, and then KG could be dismissed for other reasons as well as that one.

 

Yokay then. Also, it's not just Barristan. Remember Boros Blount( Though he was restored). And Osmund Kettleblack is likely to be kicked out.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It can be annulled  by a High Septon or by a Council of Faith. 

You are right. Yet still there is the question about what faction would need the annulment. For example as far as we know the Northmen can even claim that the wedding wasn’t even legal since it was in a sept instead in front of a weirwood tree, especially since she was forced to marry.

[Jaenara Belarys]

55 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

You are right. Yet still there is the question about what faction would need the annulment

Littlefinger maybe? The only problem is that it would look suspicious if Lord Baelish turned up in KL or sent a letter asking the High Septon to annul Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. At least to me.

 

57 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

For example as far as we know the Northmen can even claim that the wedding wasn’t even legal since it was in a sept instead in front of a weirwood tree, especially since she was forced to marry.

So far as I know, the Northmen would hold the marriage to be legitimate, even if it was in a sept. They could claim the marriage null and void because it wasn't consummated.......

[divica]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but it still sets a precedent. Barristan was thrown out of the KG because he failed to save Robert, and then KG could be dismissed for other reasons as well as that one.

People could think: 'Well, yeah, the Lord Commander died and all, but he wasn't *really* dead because then he would have never come back, so why cannot we wear crowns and win glory and father children, too?

I mean, I could see this as an eventual rationalization for Jon to leave the NW if things there went to hell or he had severe problems with what was going on there and couldn't do anything about it or had the need to go to some other place for some reason ... but it isn't something he is likely to cite immediately after his resurrection.

Because so far the one coherent trait in his arc is that he has understood the danger the Others pose and wants to stop them. He couldn't do that if he left the Wall.

The problem here is if the king can kick people out of the kingsguard why can t the LC kick people out of the NW? The LC is the leader of the NW like the king is the leader of the kingdom.

You can discuss that some lords might stop suporting the NW, but the important here is if the LC can sent people out of the NW without them becoming deserters.

And in regards to jon he was ready to accept stannis offer to become lord of winterfell. He only ender up refusing because he didn t want the simbols of the old gods in winterfell destroyed by mel. If he is declared robb's heir I have very little doubts that he will want to leave the NW. And he can do much more for the fight against the others as kitn than LC...

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said, if he did that it would be very bad form. He should continue doing his duty at the Wall, etc. And the idea of him doing that as king or lord or with a wife and children would just set very bad precedents. I mean, if the Lord Commander can do that, why not everybody else, too?

Look at what you are saying. Basically, if you want to get out of the KG then you just have to be really bad at your job that the king will eventually kick you out?

And if he marries or becomes king obviously jon would quit the NW. The question is if as the LC he has the authority to abandon the NW without becoming a deserter. After all, even robb thought that people could get out of the NW. So we aren't talking about something unthinkable.

3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Or he dies, therefore fulfilling "it will not end until my death". 

But if he dies and then revives he isn't dead. It sounds like a technicality that most people would argue against.

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, divica said:

But if he dies and then revives he isn't dead. It sounds like a technicality that most people would argue against.

 

He still died, though. 

[divica]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a weird question. In relation to the KG it is pretty obvious that the king decides who he wants as bodyguard and who not. Or do you think the king could be forced to keep a man as bodyguard he loathed or the loathed bodyguard appeal to some 'higher authority' if the king were to take his armor and weapons from him and threw him out on the street?

Not very likely.

Why? The KG surely made a vow to the gods that he would be there for the king. Why can the king dismiss a vow made to the gods? By that logic if the LC of the night watch doesn t want a sworn member of the NW he can expel him. The power of the LC and the king is very simillar within their domains...

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We already know who could get Sansa her annulment - the High Septon or a council of the Fatih (whatever that might be). But this doesn't mean Tyrion couldn't still later claim he and Sansa are lawfully married - although it is not very likely that many people would listen to him.

The faith would have to listen no? And does if sansa wasn't a virgin would she need to stay married to tyrion until there is proof he is dead?