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How powerful/rich was house Darry before Robert rebellion?

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Castle Darry is described as small. In my opinion, the Darrys were just more vocal about their support for House Targaryen than others. House Mooton is also a big Targaryen supporter in the riverlands but they have Maidenpool which is a port town of big regional importance plus they have place of culte with Jonquil's Pool. So the Mootons are very rich from trade and pilgrimage (historically they were/are? the wealthiest House in the riverlands). Unless the Darrys controlled fords/bridges to cross the Trident, I don't think they were that wealthy/powerful.

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On 6/23/2021 at 8:26 PM, Mrstrategy said:

How powerful/rich was house Darry before Robert rebellion since. It seems that it could possibly rival house Frey?

They were doing fine.  I believe the Inn is located on Darry lands.  Their lands were fertile and therefore, productive when it came time to harvest.  But they are not rivals to House Frey.  House Frey is one of the richest families in Westeros. 

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On 6/25/2021 at 1:03 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

They were doing fine.  I believe the Inn is located on Darry lands.  Their lands were fertile and therefore, productive when it came time to harvest.  But they are not rivals to House Frey.  House Frey is one of the richest families in Westeros. 

I have House Frey in the top 14 or so. After the defiance Duskendale lands probably aren't what they were; Rosby is probably still pretty wealthy. Lannisters/Hightowers and lords paramount still sit above them. There are probably several lords in the Reach of comparable wealth. They do still have the crannogs to the North after all. Gulltown Arryns are richer without a doubt as well as Manderlys.

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On 6/26/2021 at 6:15 AM, Leonardo said:

I have House Frey in the top 14 or so. After the defiance Duskendale lands probably aren't what they were; Rosby is probably still pretty wealthy. Lannisters/Hightowers and lords paramount still sit above them. There are probably several lords in the Reach of comparable wealth. They do still have the crannogs to the North after all. Gulltown Arryns are richer without a doubt as well as Manderlys.

I believe the Freys were richer than the Starks. The houses I would say definitely have more money are:

The Lannisters 

Hightower's 

Tyrells

Martell

Redwynes

 

The houses that probably have more

Tullys

Velyro

Rowan 

The Arryns 

Manderleys 

So yea I'd have to agree the Freys are around top 10 maybe a little further back. Still very rich for a castle without a sea port.No mines and no trade to speak of. In my opinion House Darry is way behind them. All Darry has was fertile land. Farmers aren't known to get rich in this story. I think all their power came from House Targaryan and being one of their staunchest supporters. That's what got the Tully's their position of Ord Paramount's of the river lands. They probably figured if they won they might of been rewarded with the Tully's titties and perhaps even their keep. 

I

 

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15 hours ago, Impbread said:

I believe the Freys were richer than the Starks

Hard to believe. The Starks have a entire "kingdom" paying taxes to them, including one of the few cities in Westeros while the Freys have only a bridge

15 hours ago, Impbread said:

All Darry has was fertile land. Farmers aren't known to get rich in this story.

Thats precisely what makes the Reach soo powerful. The Redwynes got rich because of their vines.

Saying that, I doubt that the Darrys were really that rich in the past.

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3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Hard to believe. The Starks have a entire "kingdom" paying taxes to them, including one of the few cities in Westeros while the Freys have only a bridge

Thats precisely what makes the Reach soo powerful. The Redwynes got rich because of their vines.

Saying that, I doubt that the Darrys were really that rich in the past.

The North has had to seek aide from the crown in bad winters to feed the North folk. If the Starks can't afford to feed there own people in a harsh winter that occurs every 100 years or so than they obviously have very little coin. Think about it. Manderley is the only Northern house with  a port. It is also the only true city in the North  What do you think North people without ships or trade income do? They subsistence farm  Jusr surviving a brutal Northern winter is described a feat in itself. We are told of elder members of family "going out hunting" The only house that has any sort of income other than farming and mills would be the Dustin's and the horses they raise. You stated you agreed house Darry was pretty poor. Imagine the fortunes of a similar house in the North. Where they can't grow crops because Winterlasts 4 plus years and the soul isn't nearly as fertile as the land down south. The only income the Starks seem to have is the meager taxes their poor as constituents pay. Other than Manderley I  cant imagine anyone else is paying much. The Starks are a very old and prestigious house but poor af as far as Lord Paramounts go. That's just the way I interpret what we know of the Norths terrain and the high lords of the North's income streams.

 

     What do you think they are doing up there to make money? Just curious. I'm pretty sure that's why nights watch has always been manned by predominantly Northern lands because their families probably needed to get rid of mouths feed  Just a thought 

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25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

What do you think they are doing up there to make money? Just curious. I'm pretty sure that's why nights watch has always been manned by predominantly Northern lands because their families probably needed to get rid of mouths feed  Just a thought

Timber, tar and furs. Besides North should also have huge commercial navy bc they have access both raw materials and a lot of cheap labor. Or instead of going hunting those hungry people should build and man ships. There also should be a all kinds of minerals in there. After all the North covers the area that is almost same side than Europe so they should also had massive mining industry.

PS. Reason why the North did not have any kind of navy is that ghost of Brandon the Burner had come and buttraped anyone to death who even thinks about building any ships in the North.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Timber, tar and furs. Besides North should also have huge commercial navy bc they have access both raw materials and a lot of cheap labor. Or instead of going hunting those hungry people should build and man ships. There also should be a all kinds of minerals in there. After all the North covers the area that is almost same side than Europe so they should also had massive mining industry.

PS. Reason why the North did not have any kind of navy is that ghost of Brandon the Burner had come and buttraped anyone to death who even thinks about building any ships in the North.

I agree with you. They should have a fleet even a smallish one. The fact they never built ships with the iron born reving up and  down the stoney shore. Something to deter them Instead of fishing skiffs. All of Westeros seems to have ample timber at least to the extent it's not economically feasible to source it all the way from North. Cheap labor all over to.i would think furs could be a nice little side income or cottage industry for the North.As far as minerals you would think the mountainous regions described would have plenty of metals to mine .

Edited by Impbread

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12 hours ago, Impbread said:

The North has had to seek aide from the crown in bad winters to feed the North folk. If the Starks can't afford to feed there own people in a harsh winter that occurs every 100 years or so than they obviously have very little coin. Think about it. Manderley is the only Northern house with  a port. It is also the only true city in the North  What do you think North people without ships or trade income do? They subsistence farm  Jusr surviving a brutal Northern winter is described a feat in itself. We are told of elder members of family "going out hunting" The only house that has any sort of income other than farming and mills would be the Dustin's and the horses they raise.

While the North definitely does subsistence farm and hunt for a large part of the population, we know they do quite a bit beyond that. We see mead and ale common in northern halls, which means they have a surpluses of honey and grains. We also know they are advised to store at least a quarter of each harvest aside by the "current" Stark regime. There's quite a bit of animal husbandry; the Dustin horses and the Umber cattle ranging the most prominent examples. WH also has silver smiths and other artisans, and they act as the primary port for exports (wool,hides, and timber).

Aside from the obvious fantasy setting, there are a few things you have to keep in mind. The North suffers the brutal longest winters in the 7K so it makes sense they'd need help from the crown. Their lands are not as fertile (see population density vs the southern kingdoms) and they have shorter growing seasons. One can grow things like winter wheat, many tuber plants, alfalfa over the winter and even harvest them if it's warm enough, but the Northern fall /winter weather is so bad that basically any plants would die because of the amount of snows.

12 hours ago, Impbread said:

You stated you agreed house Darry was pretty poor. Imagine the fortunes of a similar house in the North. Where they can't grow crops because Winterlasts 4 plus years and the soul isn't nearly as fertile as the land down south. The only income the Starks seem to have is the meager taxes their poor as constituents pay. Other than Manderley I  cant imagine anyone else is paying much. The Starks are a very old and prestigious house but poor af as far as Lord Paramounts go. That's just the way I interpret what we know of the Norths terrain and the high lords of the North's income streams.

The North is supposed to be less advanced by design -- see armor used and first men culture -- anyway, so feudalism based on agricultural rent vs hard coin rent makes sense. So while the Starks might be short of immediate access to coin, they are not "poor" in the traditional sense of the word.

12 hours ago, Impbread said:

 What do you think they are doing up there to make money? Just curious. I'm pretty sure that's why nights watch has always been manned by predominantly Northern lands because their families probably needed to get rid of mouths feed  Just a thought 

Like a few others and I have mentioned, there are several things they can do to make money but they are definitely more limited than farther south.

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Traditionally most money came from agriculture, so if you had land you had wealth; that means all of the Lords Paramount are bound to be richer than Frey, since House Tully taxes them. House Tully does seem to have a lot of rivals in the Riverlands. Even if only 20% of the North were farmable(and it's bound to be far far more than that) then that already gives House Stark more farming land than any house in the realm. The North is just huge like that. Luxury goods usually didn't yield a ton because there wasn't a large enough upper and middle class to buy them en masse.

I imagine the North got some pretty awesome tax breaks/lowered tariffs and fees due to their early and massive support for Robert in both wars. Most of the army at the Trident was northmen. Wouldn't surprise me at all to learn the North was mostly exempt from taxation during Robert's reign.

 

The North also has the Manderlys under them, meaning they're paying a large amount in tax. The North is based on northern england/scotland, and both of them have plenty of farmland.

 

1. Lannisters
2. Tyrells

3. Hightowers

4. Arryn
5. Starks
6. Manderly
7. Rykker (Duskendale)
8. Grafton (Gulltown)
9. Lefford (Golden Tooth)
10. Tully

11. Baratheon of Storm's end
12. Martell

13. Redwyne

14. Frey/Tarly/Rowan

There's a bunch of houses at about this tier. Half of the Reach is going to be wealthier than most others, the land is probably more fertile and they generally own large chunks. Probably a lot of Westerland houses around this level too, but we don't know the states of the mines there. As Greyjoy DON'T SOW then they ain't going to have much cash, they're going to be stealing most of what they have. The Northern lords are too poor generally regardless of manpower, the Riverlords are probably fairly wealthy as well considering population density along the trident. Stormlords are probably on the lower half along with parts of the Vale. And of course Dornish lords can't do much farming outside of the valleys near the mountains in the east. House Yronwood probably has a respectable fortune, Dayne etc

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On 6/29/2021 at 4:59 AM, Impbread said:

The North has had to seek aide from the crown in bad winters to feed the North folk. If the Starks can't afford to feed there own people in a harsh winter that occurs every 100 years or so than they obviously have very little coin

Not necessarily. In real life even rich countries like France suffered terrible famines during winter. Hunger is a common part of life in the medieval world.

There's no way a bunch of fee collectors could be richer than the Starks

On 6/29/2021 at 4:59 AM, Impbread said:

What do you think they are doing up there to make money? Just curious.

Farming, fishing, hunting, like most of Westeros.

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I agree with Thomaerys post above.  I believe most of their influence came from their court positions with the Targaryens; but, their keep was relatively small.  I don't believe they were in what I would consider the 'upper' tier of river lords.  

The Trident/Riverlands seems a bit different than the other regions in that they seem to not have as 'stratified' of tiers as say the North or the Eyrie - where there are probably 4-5 Lords per each tier.  In the Riverlands, I think the tiers (1A -2 below) are much closer together than other regions

I would categorize as:  

1A:  Tully, Whent, Frey, Mallister, Vance (Wayfarer's Rest)

1B:  Bracken, Blackwood, Piper

2:  Mooton, Darry, Vance (Atranta), Roote

3:  Vypren, Lychester, Hawick, Blanetree, Charlton, Ryger

4:  All Others/Landed Knights

 

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9 minutes ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

I agree with Thomaerys post above.  I believe most of their influence came from their court positions with the Targaryens; but, their keep was relatively small.  I don't believe they were in what I would consider the 'upper' tier of river lords.  

The Trident/Riverlands seems a bit different than the other regions in that they seem to not have as 'stratified' of tiers as say the North or the Eyrie - where there are probably 4-5 Lords per each tier.  In the Riverlands, I think the tiers (1A -2 below) are much closer together than other regions

I would categorize as:  

1A:  Tully, Whent, Frey, Mallister, Vance (Wayfarer's Rest)

1B:  Bracken, Blackwood, Piper

2:  Mooton, Darry, Vance (Atranta), Roote

3:  Vypren, Lychester, Hawick, Blanetree, Charlton, Ryger

4:  All Others/Landed Knights

 

Looks dead on to me.

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11 hours ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

I agree with Thomaerys post above.  I believe most of their influence came from their court positions with the Targaryens; but, their keep was relatively small.  I don't believe they were in what I would consider the 'upper' tier of river lords.  

The Trident/Riverlands seems a bit different than the other regions in that they seem to not have as 'stratified' of tiers as say the North or the Eyrie - where there are probably 4-5 Lords per each tier.  In the Riverlands, I think the tiers (1A -2 below) are much closer together than other regions

I would categorize as:  

1A:  Tully, Whent, Frey, Mallister, Vance (Wayfarer's Rest)

1B:  Bracken, Blackwood, Piper

2:  Mooton, Darry, Vance (Atranta), Roote

3:  Vypren, Lychester, Hawick, Blanetree, Charlton, Ryger

4:  All Others/Landed Knights

 

Not sure how you can separate the Vances tbh. They were both powerful enough to be noted supporting a Targ faction during the dance. The world book or F&B noted that the Vances were more or less on par with 1B but didn't differentiate between the two:

“The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins.”

Agreed on the Freys being top tier of RL strength. 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/1/2021 at 7:53 AM, Leonardo said:

Traditionally most money came from agriculture, so if you had land you had wealth; that means all of the Lords Paramount are bound to be richer than Frey, since House Tully taxes them. House Tully does seem to have a lot of rivals in the Riverlands. Even if only 20% of the North were farmable(and it's bound to be far far more than that) then that already gives House Stark more farming land than any house in the realm. The North is just huge like that. Luxury goods usually didn't yield a ton because there wasn't a large enough upper and middle class to buy them en masse.

I imagine the North got some pretty awesome tax breaks/lowered tariffs and fees due to their early and massive support for Robert in both wars. Most of the army at the Trident was northmen. Wouldn't surprise me at all to learn the North was mostly exempt from taxation during Robert's reign.

 

The North also has the Manderlys under them, meaning they're paying a large amount in tax. The North is based on northern england/scotland, and both of them have plenty of farmland.

 

1. Lannisters
2. Tyrells

3. Hightowers

4. Arryn
5. Starks
6. Manderly
7. Rykker (Duskendale)
8. Grafton (Gulltown)
9. Lefford (Golden Tooth)
10. Tully

11. Baratheon of Storm's end
12. Martell

13. Redwyne

14. Frey/Tarly/Rowan

There's a bunch of houses at about this tier. Half of the Reach is going to be wealthier than most others, the land is probably more fertile and they generally own large chunks. Probably a lot of Westerland houses around this level too, but we don't know the states of the mines there. As Greyjoy DON'T SOW then they ain't going to have much cash, they're going to be stealing most of what they have. The Northern lords are too poor generally regardless of manpower, the Riverlords are probably fairly wealthy as well considering population density along the trident. Stormlords are probably on the lower half along with parts of the Vale. And of course Dornish lords can't do much farming outside of the valleys near the mountains in the east. House Yronwood probably has a respectable fortune, Dayne etc

There is no way that The Starks are richer than The Baratheons, The Tullys and The Martells. 

The Baratheons rule Westeros which definitely bring sthem extra wealth and they have The Dornish marches which are very rich lands. Also they have a strong fleet which means strong trade. The Starks don't have many ships as we already know. They should be richer tbh.

The Tullys are definitely richer. You guys need to realise that even though The Tullys don't have strong consolidating power in The RIverlands, they tax all their rich vassals, including the Lord of Harrenhall and The Freys. Secondly they are the only Great House that controls an area with harbours in both the Sunset and The Narrow Sea (The Starks control no harbor in The Sunset Sea). They control the second richest agriculural region in Westeros after The Reach and Riverrun is in a crossroads between The North and The Vale with Lannisport/Castery Rock and The Iron Islands. I see no reason that The Tullys are not the 4th richest family in Westeros after The Lannisters, The Tyrells and The Hightowers.

Between The Starks and The Martells the last are definitely richer. The Starks control a much bigger area and have a strong port-city but Dorn has very strong trade, they have strong relations with The Free Cities and with Summer Islands. Also we know that they cultivate oranges, lemons, Olives and other mediterranean stuff and that they make decent wine as well.  They also have spices and other exotic stuff. They even have their unique horse breed that they sell and also yew types for making bows. Dorne probably has the strongest trade after The Westerlands, The Reach, King's Landing and Oldtown.

 

My list of The RIchest houses of Westeros would be:

1. Lanisters

2. Tyrells

3. Hightowers

4. Tullys

5. Martells

6. Arynns

7.  Baratheons

8. Starks

9. Greyjoys (don't forget piracy)

10. Lord of Harrenhall

11. Redwynes

12. Freys

13. ~Manderlys~ or some other houses from The Westerlands or The Reach

 

*if The lord of The RIverlands was also The Lord of Harenhall, he would probably climb to #3, just after The Lannisters and The Tyrells. 

 

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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26 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Between The Starks and The Martells the last are definitely richer. The Starks control a much bigger area and have a strong port-city but Dorn has very strong trade, they have strong relations with The Free Cities and with Summer Islands. Also we know that they cultivate oranges, lemons, Olives and other mediterranean stuff and that they make decent wine as well.  They also have spices and other exotic stuff. They even have their unique horse breed that they sell and also yew types for making bows. Dorne probably has the strongest trade after The Westerlands, The Reach, King's Landing and Oldtown

Dorne is a barren wasteland that is less than half of the North's size. We dont really know about how strong their trade connections are, but considering that there are no cities in the whole region I doubt it should be really that strong.

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12 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Dorne is a barren wasteland that is less than half of the North's size. We dont really know about how strong their trade connections are, but considering that there are no cities in the whole region I doubt it should be really that strong.

Have you heard about Egypt, Carthage etc? These were both mainly desert empires and they both were extremely rich, with strong agriculture and and massive trade power.

The North is full of steppe, marshes and woods. 

Dorne is agriculture around it's rivers and it's position is extremely good for sea trade. I mean Sunspear is full of gold, you don't see much of it in Winterfell.

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Just now, Dreadscythe95 said:

Have you heard about Egypt, Carthage etc? These were both mainly desert empires and they both were extremely rich, with strong agriculture and and massive trade power.

The North is full of steppe, marshes and woods. 

Dorne is agriculture around it's rivers and it's position is extremely good for sea trade. I mean Sunspear is full of gold, you don't see much of it in Winterfell.

Both Egypt and Carthage were one of the most populous countries/cities of their time, while Dorne is the opposite. This clearly indicates that Dorne is indeed a barren wasteland.

If the dornishmen had a strong commerce their land should've been filled with cities too.

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53 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Both Egypt and Carthage were one of the most populous countries/cities of their time, while Dorne is the opposite. This clearly indicates that Dorne is indeed a barren wasteland.

If the dornishmen had a strong commerce their land should've been filled with cities too.

I agree, but I find it weird that the major rivers in southern Dorne are not major hubs of agriculture or trade. 

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