UK Politics - Put your mask in the bin and hug your granny

[mormont]

24 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

piss-mopping

Can we really not with this?

Personal care for the elderly is a serious subject. It is about trying to help them retain some dignity at the end of their lives. It's well worth funding and it's also worth discussing with respect for those who are in the unfortunate position of needing to receive such care. This sort of thing doesn't hit that bar.

[Spockydog]

Fair enough.

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well now you are saying it is exacerbating the problem, that wasn’t how you stated it before though. And the extent to that exacerbation is really not clear, given that there are clearly a lot of other factors at play.

As for Northern Ireland , could their lack of chicken problems be to do with the fact that one of Nandos leading poultry suppliers has production in Northern Ireland? And that the country is really far smaller than the rest of the UK?  Just another reason why it isn’t very clear. 
 

And yeah it’s not surprising that the UK would be more affected by driver shortages than elsewhere, given we are an island that heavily depends of driven freight. On top of that much of the issues we are seeing are not inevitable consequences of Brexit, but poor planning and backlogs that could have been anticipated a bit better. 
 

Not all doom and gloom though, the employment market does seem to be working well if the shortage leads to pay rises for drivers

Driver shortage: 'I got a big pay rise overnight'

Is Ireland not also an island, one not suffering the same shortages Scotland, England and Wales despite part of the island of Ireland also being part of the UK.

So what are the benefits again? 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

So what are the benefits again? 

Duh. Something, something, immigration.

[Derfel Cadarn]

26 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Duh. Something, something, immigration.

That’s been a wild success at least, judging by the agricultural, hospitality and haulage driver shortages! 

[Spockydog]

1 minute ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

That’s been a wild success at least, judging by the agricultural, hospitality and haulage driver shortages! 

Um, hooray..?

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Is Ireland not also an island, one not suffering the same shortages Scotland, England and Wales despite part of the island of Ireland also being part of the UK.

So what are the benefits again? 

You might notice there is also a tunnel between the UK and the EU so the methods of getting stuff from one place to another will not be the same for those countries, lorry freight is a very big part of the supply chain in the UK.

Also worth pointing out that there are over 400 nandos outlets in the UK, but only 7 in NI. It would be very surprising if they ran out of chicken, especially if they are producing it. 
 

The benefits of Brexit are the same they have always been, autonomy, accountability and sovereignty. You might not feel them right now, and it’s really not in any way surprising that there will be an adjustment period, which is what we are seeing now. However it’s worth saying that this adjustment period hasn’t been anywhere near the catastrophe some were predicting, actually I doubt most people have even noticed a difference. But even this issue is highlighting that there has been more of a move to hire local workers rather than import cheap eu Labour, and wage rises for drivers whose pay has been surpressed for years 

[Derfel Cadarn]

34 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You might notice there is also a tunnel between the UK and the EU so the methods of getting stuff from one place to another will not be the same for those countries, lorry freight is a very big part of the supply chain in the UK.

Also worth pointing out that there are over 400 nandos outlets in the UK, but only 7 in NI. It would be very surprising if they ran out of chicken, especially if they are producing it. 
 

The benefits of Brexit are the same they have always been, autonomy, accountability and sovereignty. You might not feel them right now, and it’s really not in any way surprising that there will be an adjustment period, which is what we are seeing now. However it’s worth saying that this adjustment period hasn’t been anywhere near the catastrophe some were predicting, actually I doubt most people have even noticed a difference. But even this issue is highlighting that there has been more of a move to hire local workers rather than import cheap eu Labour, and wage rises for drivers whose pay has been surpressed for years 

How do you think other countries, largely landlocked in thr EU move goods? And does Britain not have ports?

Still waiting to hear about these fabulous benefits.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

How do you think other countries, largely landlocked in thr EU move goods? And does Britain not have ports?

Still waiting to hear about these fabulous benefits.

Other countries also have driver shortages 

[Derfel Cadarn]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Other countries also have driver shortages 

But they arent suffering the same delivery shortages we are! Because Brexit has made our driver shortages all the more acute, because Brexiteers told the EU workers to fuck off.

Which they duly did. This is a big issue, despite what Brexiteers believe. It will take time for new drivers to train up and pass the test, and the DVLA has a massive backlog (due to covid).

[mormont]

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

The benefits of Brexit are the same they have always been, autonomy, accountability and sovereignty.

'Sovereignty', if we are saying it's something distinct from 'autonomy', indicates something so vague as to be unmeasurable and so nobody can realistically say it's a benefit since there's no way to tell if it has increased or if it has actually improved anything for the average person in the UK.

As for autonomy and accountability, I think it's fair to say the former has increased but the jury is very firmly out on whether that has produced any actual benefit for most of us, on balance. Accountability... I'm not seeing any signs of increased accountability and I would not advise holding your breath waiting for any.

[Heartofice]

19 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

But they arent suffering the same delivery shortages we are! Because Brexit has made our driver shortages all the more acute, because Brexiteers told the EU workers to fuck off.

Well nobody was told to fuck off for starters.

Delivery shortages are occuring elsewhere, around the world and in Europe. 

Yes, they are maybe worse here, for a variety of reasons. Brexit is one of them, or actually bad management of post Brexit rules. But how much is Brexit and how much is all the other causes is something we seem to disagree on (you use the word exacerbate, but your posts are still screaming that you think its the major cause)

When you also factor in all the other factors at play, like the the global supply shortage caused by Covid, the sudden re-opening of the country causing a huge spike in demand, HGV drivers going back to Europe after Brexit AND Covid (EU HGV drivers made up just 10% of all UK drivers btw), the changes to IR35 which basically made contracting unprofitable , the large number of retiring HGV drivers that has been creating a shortfall for years coupled with the huge backlog of issuing new certificates, plus the fact that driving long haul is a badly paid job with low life quality...

.. all of that contributes to why there might be shortage of drivers in the UK. Some of that is Brexit related, but a lot of it isn't. It doesn't seem like you really care though, because blaming Brexit for everything is top of your priority list.

[Werthead]

9 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Johnson appears to be charging full speed into into another parliamentary rebellion, this time over his National Insurance tax rise for social care.

Starmer has already said Labour will oppose it, and there are plenty of Tories apparently ready to do the same.

This is going to be fun.

Yeah, this is causing major consternation in the party.

Funding social care better is extremely important and essential, but funding it through NI alone is not remotely practical. The baby boom has well and truly worn off, so working-age people can't fund social care programmes for the older generations by themselves because those generations are larger than the current ones. The old standby of selling your house to pay for social care is increasingly impractical and will simply not be an option for the majority of future generations.

Asking working age people to fund the social care of potentially wealthy older people is a non-starter. You'd need some kind of means-testing, so wealthy older people can fund their own social care and poor older people can get help, and you'd need additional ways of raising funds through general taxation or taxing ultra-rich companies properly.

This is where the weakness of Britain's situation - where living costs are high and income is low compared to other European countries - really hits home. The second we really need to do something, we find it very different to do it because the country's economy is really not working efficiently, and hasn't been since at least the great crash.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Brexit is one of them, or actually bad management of post Brexit rules.

But the problem people are talking about is nothing to do with that. It has to do with the very purpose of Brexit, which you've cited as a benefit - reduced immigration. There are fewer EU immigrant drivers in the UK. This is not because of bad management of post-Brexit rules: it was always the intent.

[polishgenius]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

You might notice there is also a tunnel between the UK and the EU so the methods of getting stuff from one place to another will not be the same for those countries, lorry freight is a very big part of the supply chain in the UK.

 

It's a very big part of the supply chain in Ireland too, often going through the UK since through that same tunnel or by ferry across the channel then by road to the ferries out of Holyhead is easily the most efficient way to bring goods into Ireland from mainland Europe.  

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

But the problem people are talking about is nothing to do with that. It has to do with the very purpose of Brexit, which you've cited as a benefit - reduced immigration. There are fewer EU immigrant drivers in the UK. This is not because of bad management of post-Brexit rules: it was always the intent.

No. The purpose was control of immigration. 
 

Since we now have the ability to control our own immigration we could make it easier for HGV drivers to work here. That we aren’t is bad management and a lack of foresight ( even if many of the other factors mentioned have made that lack of foresight a bit more understandable)
 

That is part of the sovereignty and autonomy i mentioned earlier.

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well nobody was told to fuck off for starters.

I was - as I reported on here.
I was far from alone as well, as reported all over the place, and as you know perfectly well.

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

No. The purpose was control of immigration. 
 

Since we now have the ability to control our own immigration we could make it easier for HGV drivers to work here. That we aren’t is bad management and a lack of foresight ( even if many of the other factors mentioned have made that lack of foresight a bit more understandable)
 

That is part of the sovereignty and autonomy i mentioned earlier.

Christ! Immigration is not a problem. The problem is that the immigrants are generally shunted into poor communities already with over-subscribed public amenities and jobs struggling to cope. 
If an even spread were moved into Buckley St-Arsefuck and other toff areas, there would be less pressure on struggling communities. But the fucking Tories would rather move them into poorer areas and push the narrative of too many immigrants.

There are areas in rural Scotland in need of some fresh blood.

As for bad managemnt, Brexit was primarily pushed by a guy whose private school thought him too right wing, eho made Holocaust jokes to a Jewish classmate, eho goosestepped through the village;

A millionaire who wanted to get the UK out of the EU to protect his offshoremoney from new taxes;

And a disorganised lazy clown who recognised thst supporting Brexit (despite previously supporting the the UK being in the EU) was his best chance of becoming PM.

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

No. The purpose was control of immigration.

Since we now have the ability to control our own immigration we could make it easier for HGV drivers to work here. That we aren’t is bad management and a lack of foresight ( even if many of the other factors mentioned have made that lack of foresight a bit more understandable)

That is part of the sovereignty and autonomy i mentioned earlier.

A year or two ago, I'd mentioned here the EU rules that allow member states to control immigration, and to what extent.
I think I was talking about DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC to be specific. Its chapter 6 its entitled "Restrictions on the right of entry and the right of residence on grounds of public policy, public security or public health" and guarantees that "Member States may restrict the freedom of movement and residence of Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of nationality, on grounds of public policy, public security or public health."

The UK never made use of these rules. The UK never even bothered to count and track migrants.

But you always had the possibility of controling your immigration. At the very least, the UK could have imitated other EU countries attempting to control their immigration.

Here's an interesting extract from a paper I'm reading (not sure of its overall quality yet):

Quote

These fears [about immigration] were echoed in the debate following the European Union (EU) enlargement of May 1st 2004 when the Central European countries Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, and Poland joined the European Union. Citizens of these countries were granted immediate right of free movement across all EU countries, though access to national labour markets could be restricted by national governments for a transition period of up to 7 years. Only the UK, Sweden and Ireland allowed immediate access of new Central European citizens to their labour markets.

 

[Fragile Bird]

I just saw that the UK reported 41,000 new Covid cases today. What’s happening?