Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[Tucu]

48 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

In one of the Alayne chapters there's a bald knight named Ser Ossifer Lipps who's sigil is dark blue with a huge set of pink lips. He and another knight named Ser Uther Shett of Gulltown were oggling Myranda's large bosom. Myranda told Alayne she was hoping the two knights would duel each other for her hand and kill each other.

I think we may have found our pink lips parallel...

Ossifer= DUI jokes version of officer. Officer Lips...better don't google that

Uther Shett->utter shit. Who was the utter shit at Harrenhal?

Are these two a reference to the fight between the drunk oarsmen for sloey?

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“Last one to the gate must marry Uther Shett.”

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

In one of the Alayne chapters there's a bald knight named Ser Ossifer Lipps who's sigil is dark blue with a huge set of pink lips. He and another knight named Ser Uther Shett of Gulltown were oggling Myranda's large bosom. Myranda told Alayne she was hoping the two knights would duel for her hand and kill each other.

I think we may have found our pink lips parallel...

Back to the tourneys. Richard Lonmouth was the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. He was in Rhaegar inner circle and his sigil was: "Quartered of six: red lips strewn on a yellow field, yellow skulls strewn on a black field"

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The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war

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That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him

Ossifer could also be a reference to ossified as in the bones in Lonmouth's sigil

[alienarea]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:00 PM, Melifeather said:

Italy! How exciting! I hope you have a fun-filled trip!

Thank you :) Yes.

I already spent four days on the Adriatic coast halfway between Rimini and Ancona, and moved on to the Italian Alpes near Brunico today. Currently looking into a sky full of stars.

[alienarea]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:39 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Who is going to bite off Littlefinger’s finger?

And will he just go by Little then?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Back to the tourneys. Richard Lonmouth was the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. He was in Rhaegar inner circle and his sigil was: "Quartered of six: red lips strewn on a yellow field, yellow skulls strewn on a black field"

Ossifer could also be a reference to ossified as in the bones in Lonmouth's sigil

Maybe Quence and Allaquo were Richard and Robert? It does seem like Ser Lipps is a parallel to Lonmouth. While I really like having Robert in this mix, its totally possible that he wasn't part of Ashara's dishonoring. Maybe it was Richard Lonmouth the whole time? OR Richard Lonmouth saw Robert making advances. LOL, this makes Robert "utter shit" (Uther Shett).

 

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

And will he just go by Little then?

Maybe Petyr Baelish's nickname "Littlefinger" is the only nod towards the finger biting? Alayne symbolically is the Ring, and while Littlefinger has her under his influence, he's symbolically "wearing" the ring of power. We've already seen Littlefinger push Lyssa out the Moon Door. Is this the fall that matches up with Gollum's fall into the Pit of Doom or will Littlefinger have his own fall? It could be symbolic when Sansa reveals herself. She could have people seize him?

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe Quence and Allaquo were Richard and Robert? It does seem like Ser Lipps is a parallel to Lonmouth. While I really like having Robert in this mix, its totally possible that he wasn't part of Ashara's dishonoring. Maybe it was Richard Lonmouth the whole time? OR Richard Lonmouth saw Robert making advances. LOL, this makes Robert "utter shit" (Uther Shett).

Yes, Drunk Bob was my guess for Uther. Ser Lipps seems an OK knight:

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Ossifer Lipps is the dullest knight in the Vale

While Uther is slimy and maybe drunk:

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Uther Shett appeared to pay her slimy compliments as he trod upon her feet

 

[Springwatch]

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

In one of the Alayne chapters there's a bald knight named Ser Ossifer Lipps who's sigil is dark blue with a huge set of pink lips

When I read scenes like this, it feels like the dream world is increasingly seeping into reality. Gods knows what the next books are going to be like.

[Tucu]

57 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

When I read scenes like this, it feels like the dream world is increasingly seeping into reality. Gods knows what the next books are going to be like.

My theory is that the Alayne chapters are intended as a mummer's play, so attitudes and events are exaggerated. In one layer we have Littlefinger manipulation of the succession in the Vale and at another we have a recreation of some of the events around the Harrenhal tourney.

Something similar is going on in the Mercy chapter. Arya is playing the role of no-one who is playing Mercy who is playing a maid probably based in Sansa. The play and reality mix when Arya comes of out Mercy to recreate Raff giving the gift of mercy to Lommy and creating trouble between the Iron Throne and Braavos.

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Maybe Quence and Allaquo were Richard and Robert? It does seem like Ser Lipps is a parallel to Lonmouth. While I really like having Robert in this mix, its totally possible that he wasn't part of Ashara's dishonoring. Maybe it was Richard Lonmouth the whole time?

Wasn't there a theory that Lem Lemoncloak might actually be Richard Lonmouth ?

 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Wasn't there a theory that Lem Lemoncloak might actually be Richard Lonmouth ?

 

Yes.  

But, my personal theory is that Lem is actually the Bastard of Darry, probably named after a prominent Darry, Willem Darry.  Thus in reality, Willem Rivers.  Lem being short for Willem. And perhaps we’re seeing a conflict brewing between the daughter of Darry, Mariya Frey (formerly Mariya Darry) and one of the men who killed her husband, Lem,aka Bastard of Darry, Lemoncloak.  

Perhaps a parallel to another potential conflict brewing between the Bastard of Winterfell and Sansa, the daughter of Winterfell.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

My theory is that the Alayne chapters are intended as a mummer's play, so attitudes and events are exaggerated. In one layer we have Littlefinger manipulation of the succession in the Vale and at another we have a recreation of some of the events around the Harrenhal tourney.

Something similar is going on in the Mercy chapter. Arya is playing the role of no-one who is playing Mercy who is playing a maid probably based in Sansa. The play and reality mix when Arya comes of out Mercy to recreate Raff giving the gift of mercy to Lommy and creating trouble between the Iron Throne and Braavos.

That's an interesting observation and it feels like it rings true. Just like the giant purple cock that Mercy sews into Izembaro's pants.

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Wasn't there a theory that Lem Lemoncloak might actually be Richard Lonmouth ?

 

Yes I have read this. The first time I ever read it, it was presented by Pretty Pig. I think we need to reexamine Richard Lonmouth, he of the deadly kisses.

[HoodedCrow]

I thought last Alayne chapter read a little like Pride ( Harry ) and Predjudice( Sansa) , but just as a riff to turn on its head.

 

[Melifeather]

A brief history of the Knight of Skulls and Kisses, aka "deadly kisses", "poisonous kisses", or rather Richard Lonmouth.

From the wiki:

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Richard followed Myles Mooton in squiring for Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and each man received his knighthood from Rhaegar when they were ready. Richard and Ser Myles were close friends of Rhaegar and strong supporters of the prince at court, as were Lord Jon Connington, Prince Lewyn Martell, and Ser Arthur Dayne.

Richard was present at the tourney at Harrenhal, where he played a drinking game with Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Halfway through the tourney, he and Robert each promised Rhaegar's father, King Aerys II Targaryen, they would find and discover the true identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

It is unknown if Richard chose to follow his liege lords, House Baratheon, during Robert's Rebellion, or if he stayed loyal to Prince Rhaegar and House Targaryen.

 

Okay...so he's a mysterious guy. A squire to Rhaegar and friendly with Robert Baratheon? As Seargent Schultz on Hogan's Heroes would say, "Verrry interesting! (but stupid!") He was an important enough figure for Meera to include in the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. His sigil of big lips and skulls seems to be a hint, but is it too obvious to be a significant hint? Was he the guy that tried forcing himself upon Ashara at the Harrenhal Tourney? Or was he the one to find Robert in bed with her? 

It has been suggested that Lem Lemoncloak is actually Richard Lonmouth. If he is, why the disguise? Did he have to go into exile like Jon Connington?

[Tucu]

48 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

A brief history of the Knight of Skulls and Kisses, aka "deadly kisses", "poisonous kisses", or rather Richard Lonmouth.

From the wiki:

Okay...so he's a mysterious guy. A squire to Rhaegar and friendly with Robert Baratheon? As Seargent Schultz on Hogan's Heroes would say, "Verrry interesting! (but stupid!") He was an important enough figure for Meera to include in the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. His sigil of big lips and skulls seems to be a hint, but is it too obvious to be a significant hint? Was he the guy that tried forcing himself upon Ashara at the Harrenhal Tourney? Or was he the one to find Robert in bed with her? 

It has been suggested that Lem Lemoncloak is actually Richard Lonmouth. If he is, why the disguise? Did he have to go into exile like Jon Connington?

Lem is a curious character. Tansy (from the Stoney Sept) jokes that he was a Kingsguard. She has not seen them for a while but knows them well - old friends:

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The buxom red-haired innkeep howled with pleasure at the sight of them, then promptly set to tweaking them. "Greenbeard, is it? Or Greybeard? Mother take mercy, when did you get so old? Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard! And Tom o' Sevens, you randy old goat! You come to see that son o' yours? Well, you're too late, he's off riding with that bloody Huntsman. And don't tell me he's not yours!"

Later Lem takes the identity of the Hound who was a Kingsguard but then became a deserter and a broken-man.

[Frey family reunion]

One of the issues I have with Lem being Lonmouth, is that it doesn't really fit the facts that we know.  Lonmouth was a lord in the Stormlands, yet Lem speaks of his wife and children being killed by the Lannisters in the midst with their rampage through the Riverlands.  Lem doesn't speak like a nobleman.  Lem seems to have issues with how the Lords treat the commoners.

None of this adds up to a Stormlander lord who was the squire to Rhaegar.

At the end of ACOK, Varys brings up the death of the last heir of House Darry, and mentions that there is a bastard of House Darry who's whereabouts are apparently unaccounted for.

Then in ASOS we are introduced to Lem Lemoncloack.  We find out that Lem's family was killed by the Lannisters, presumably during their reign of terror in the Riverlands.  And it just so happens that House Darry's lands were some of the hardest hit by the Lannisters.

There is a prominent Darry, Willem.  Often children, even bastard children are named after their ancestors.  So it stands to reason that Lem might be short for Willem.

Now fast forward to the events of AFOC, where Jaime pays his visit to House Darry.  We find out that the last remaining daughter of House Darry, even though she was formerly married to a Frey, is present in Castle Darry, and her daughter is married to the new Lannister lord of Darry.  They specifically mention her emnity with the Brotherhood without Banners, and they also specifically mention that the "Hound" is wreaking havoc in the Riverlands.  We later find out that Lem has adopted the "Hound"'s identity.  Strongboar promises Lady Frey (aka Lady Darry) that he will hunt down both the Brotherhood and the Hound for her.

In my opinion, I think GRRM may be creating some parallels and/or foreshadowing to the events in House Darry with another famous House that has been destroyed and their lands taken over.  House Stark and Winterfell.  

 

[Tucu]

35 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

One of the issues I have with Lem being Lonmouth, is that it doesn't really fit the facts that we know.  Lonmouth was a lord in the Stormlands, yet Lem speaks of his wife and children being killed by the Lannisters in the midst with their rampage through the Riverlands.  Lem doesn't speak like a nobleman.  Lem seems to have issues with how the Lords treat the commoners.

None of this adds up to a Stormlander lord who was the squire to Rhaegar.

At the end of ACOK, Varys brings up the death of the last heir of House Darry, and mentions that there is a bastard of House Darry who's whereabouts are apparently unaccounted for.

Then in ASOS we are introduced to Lem Lemoncloack.  We find out that Lem's family was killed by the Lannisters, presumably during their reign of terror in the Riverlands.  And it just so happens that House Darry's lands were some of the hardest hit by the Lannisters.

There is a prominent Darry, Willem.  Often children, even bastard children are named after their ancestors.  So it stands to reason that Lem might be short for Willem.

Now fast forward to the events of AFOC, where Jaime pays his visit to House Darry.  We find out that the last remaining daughter of House Darry, even though she was formerly married to a Frey, is present in Castle Darry, and her daughter is married to the new Lannister lord of Darry.  They specifically mention her emnity with the Brotherhood without Banners, and they also specifically mention that the "Hound" is wreaking havoc in the Riverlands.  We later find out that Lem has adopted the "Hound"'s identity.  Strongboar promises Lady Frey (aka Lady Darry) that he will hunt down both the Brotherhood and the Hound for her.

In my opinion, I think GRRM may be creating some parallels and/or foreshadowing to the events in House Darry with another famous House that has been destroyed and their lands taken over.  House Stark and Winterfell.  

 

The bastard of Darry is a cousin to the child lord of Darry (son of Raymun). I would expect a person younger than Lem; unless he is a distant cousin, but then they would have included first the Freys that married Raymun's sisters

[Frey family reunion]

13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The bastard of Darry is a cousin to the child lord of darry. I would expect a person younger than Lem; unless he is a distant cousin, but then they would have included the Freys that married with the two old Lord Darry's daughters

You have to remember, that Lord Raymun Darry, the father to the child heir, had three older brothers, who were presumably killed or died before they had any heirs.  At least before they had any legitimate heirs.  So depending on how old Raymun's brothers were, the Bastard of Darry could have been almost of an age with Raymun.  (techinically could have been older)

[Melifeather]

It may be that Lem Lemoncloak is only a parallel to Richard Lonmouth? His appearance is more of a description of something Richard may have done. 
 

When I was studying the Queenmaker chapter there was a lot of language centered on “pissing”.  I’m going to review my initial thoughts and see if they may apply to Lonmouth. I had originally thought that the “pissing” was about Arthur Dayne, because Darkstar was doing the pissing. My thoughts were that he might be an alter ego of Arthur, sort of an Arthur gone bad like Darth Vader.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You have to remember, that Lord Raymun Darry, the father to the child heir, had three older brothers, who were presumably killed or died before they had any heirs.  At least before they had any legitimate heirs.  So depending on how old Raymun's brothers were, the Bastard of Darry could have been almost of an age with Raymun.  (techinically could have been older)

As the 3 brothers died at the Trident without heirs and no widow is mentioned, I assumed that they were young knights or squires during the rebellion, teenagers or early twenties.

BTW: there was a Willem Wylde in the Kingsguard that fought in Dunk's Trial of Seven and there were men from House Wylde with Beric. Their coat of arms is "A blue-green maelstrom, on a gold field"

[Frey family reunion]

37 minutes ago, Tucu said:

As the 3 brothers died at the Trident without heirs and no widow is mentioned, I assumed that they were young knights or squires during the rebellion, teenagers or early twenties.

BTW: there was a Willem Wylde in the Kingsguard that fought in Dunk's Trial of Seven and there were men from House Wylde with Beric. Their coat of arms is "A blue-green maelstrom, on a gold field"

I don't think we can assume that the Darry brothers were all young knights at the time of the Trident.  Only that they didn't have any legitimate heirs.  After all, the Blackfish, never had any heirs or ever got married.  Jon Arryn had no heir until late in his life.  So just because they died without a legitimate heir doesn't mean that they were necessarily very young at the time.