Who will be Daenerys' allies and enemies on Westeros ?

[Odej]

10 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I think you mean IF she arrives in westeros. 

If she arrives in westeros she will have her nephew aegon as her ally. Most of the crownlands will support them. The riverlands still have targaryen loyalists. Due to lannister havoc in the region most will not back lannisters, same with starks. So they have the riverlands as well. They may have half of the reach.

She will go to Westeros. George said in an interview Daenerys and Tyrion are coming home.

He also said there will be a second Dance of the Dragons so two Targaryen suitors will face each other for the throne and at this point of story we have Daenerys and Aegon. They likely won't be allies.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

She didn't spurn quentyn he arrived on the day of her marriage. 

And quentyn's death is on barristan's hands since he was in charge of meereen

But how will this story reach Doran's ears? And even if the truth comes, why would he see things from Daenerys point of view? He is not interested in hers desire to rule Meereen and marry a man from the city to establish her power there. Doran is more likely to see things from his point of view: I offered my son and Dorne's support to Daenerys and she refused, and my son ended up slain by one of her dragons.

And with the arrival of a Targaryen whom he shares blood, son of his beloved sister, male, and therefore more likely to be accepted, and Doran's ambitious daughter Arianne meeting him with the possibility of marriage let him make her queen, everything suggests Dorne will support Aegon and abhor Daenerys.

Daenerys will have a huge army behind her, but the chaos she has wreaked on the free cities, the fact that she is a woman, that she is bringing an army of barbarians and eunuchs to Westeros and her war against her own nephew should not draw many to her cause. Targaryen loyalists who still exist in Westeros may prefer Aegon, even though his identity is open to doubt. 

I don't think Dany would have much allies in Westeros except maybe by the Ironborns and the Tyrells. Militarily it won't matter, she'll have a huge army and dragons, but when it comes to winning the love and respect of her subjects, something that has always mattered to her, she will fail. She will win the war, but she won't be loved.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

She didn't spurn quentyn he arrived on the day of her marriage. 

And quentyn's death is on barristan's hands since he was in charge of meereen

Who the Dornishmen will believe? One of their own or Dany? The same woman who wants to usurp her nephews' Throne, whose husband killed her brother and who is coming with a host of barbarians?

Let's be realistic about it. When she refused Quentyn's wedding proposal she lost Dorne.

[The Commentator]

The majority will bend their knees to Daenerys. The main Lannister branch will be gone by the time of Dany’s arrival.  Euron, Aegon, and the Martells will have weakened themselves. The only families who will oppose are the Baratheons and the Starks.  It would be nice to have another field of fire and cook the Starks and the Baratheons. Medium rare would do. 

 

[SeanF]

I’m not convinced that Dany’s young dragons are going to be militarily invincible.  Balerion, Vaghar, and Meraxes were much older than Dany’s dragons.

So, Dany will need allies, and where will she find the them?  Among anybody who has lost out under fAegon and the Dornish; among those who suffer their vengeance;  among those disgusted by the likely murder of Tommen, Myrcella and Margaery and her cousins; among those who can’t stomach Euron Greyjoy.

 

[Lord Lannister]

4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Who the Dornishmen will believe? One of their own or Dany? The same woman who wants to usurp her nephews' Throne, whose husband killed her brother and who is coming with a host of barbarians?

Let's be realistic about it. When she refused Quentyn's wedding proposal she lost Dorne.

Agree. Quentyn died as a guest under her roof after she turned down the wedding alliance. That is what Dorne will remember. Only way Dorne is going Targaryen is if Arianne marries (f)Aegon, which seems likely. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 11/4/2021 at 11:16 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Agree. Quentyn died as a guest under her roof after she turned down the wedding alliance. That is what Dorne will remember. Only way Dorne is going Targaryen is if Arianne marries (f)Aegon, which seems likely. 

I am pretty sure that Arianne and Aegon's marriage will happen, and it means that they will hate Daenerys as much if not even more than the Lannisters if Arianne dies as a result, after already hearing that their prince was rejected and died to dragonfire and at this point I imagine that Doran will have lost so much and so many loved ones that he will abandon any caution and oppose Daenerys without caring if he dies as a result. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 11/4/2021 at 3:16 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Agree. Quentyn died as a guest under her roof after she turned down the wedding alliance. That is what Dorne will remember. Only way Dorne is going Targaryen is if Arianne marries (f)Aegon, which seems likely. 

Quentyn died because he was a fool who attempted to steal a dragon. He broke guest right when he did that, slew Targaryen men, and killed hundreds when he loosed the dragons on the city.

If Ser Barristan lives, then I'm sure Doran would be able to understand to a degree. Plus, what's Dany supposed to do if she's all the way in the Dothraki Sea? Warg into the dragons and have them nudge him gently out? They were locked up for a reason. 

In addition to that, how is she supposed to back out of the Hizdahr marriage without causing major problems in Meereen? Quentyn arrived too late, then proceeded to die like the idiot he was. 

[Lord Lannister]

32 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Quentyn died because he was a fool who attempted to steal a dragon. He broke guest right when he did that, slew Targaryen men, and killed hundreds when he loosed the dragons on the city.

If Ser Barristan lives, then I'm sure Doran would be able to understand to a degree. Plus, what's Dany supposed to do if she's all the way in the Dothraki Sea? Warg into the dragons and have them nudge him gently out? They were locked up for a reason. 

In addition to that, how is she supposed to back out of the Hizdahr marriage without causing major problems in Meereen? Quentyn arrived too late, then proceeded to die like the idiot he was. 

People aren't always rational about details like that. Especially fathers in regards to the killing of their children. Quentyn died as a guest under Dany's roof after being spurned by her and was killed by her dragons. Which admittedly he never should've been able to get anywhere near. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

People aren't always rational about details like that. Especially fathers in regards to the killing of their children. Quentyn died as a guest under Dany's roof after being spurned by her and was killed by her dragons. Which admittedly he never should've been able to get anywhere near. 

And let's not forget about dornish reactions after Oberyn's death, treating it as if he was murdered by combat instead of having fought and lost in a trial by combat.

[Jaenara Belarys]

42 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

People aren't always rational about details like that. Especially fathers in regards to the killing of their children. Quentyn died as a guest under Dany's roof after being spurned by her and was killed by her dragons. Which admittedly he never should've been able to get anywhere near. 

True. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Quentyn died because he was a fool who attempted to steal a dragon. He broke guest right when he did that, slew Targaryen men, and killed hundreds when he loosed the dragons on the city.

If Ser Barristan lives, then I'm sure Doran would be able to understand to a degree. Plus, what's Dany supposed to do if she's all the way in the Dothraki Sea? Warg into the dragons and have them nudge him gently out? They were locked up for a reason. 

In addition to that, how is she supposed to back out of the Hizdahr marriage without causing major problems in Meereen? Quentyn arrived too late, then proceeded to die like the idiot he was. 

Quentyn was extremely naive, and his marriage proposal was half-baked.  There was no way that Daenerys could have cancelled her marriage to Hizdahr the day before it was due to take place.

Like the fAegon plot, it's also predicated upon Dany being willing toleave the freedmen in the lurch and sail West, which she is not prepared to do.

But, I accept that's not how the Dornish will see it, especially now that Arianne has put two and two together to make five, having convinced herself that Daenerys murdered both Viserys and her husband.  Arianne's own thoughts towards Quentyn are less than charitable, but dead, he'll be a useful martyr.

[Only 89 selfies today]

Daenerys Targaryen will come to Westeros but it will be by invitation and not an invasion.  All of the leading houses save the Lannisters and the Starks will invite her to take over the kingdom and rule over them. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, I accept that's not how the Dornish will see it, especially now that Arianne has put two and two together to make five, having convinced herself that Daenerys murdered both Viserys and her husband.  Arianne's own thoughts towards Quentyn are less than charitable, but dead, he'll be a useful martyr.

Arianne is an idiot in general, but I can understand why she'd come to the conclusions that she has about Dany. She doesn't have the insider information about Dany's life that we do. From her perspective, Dany took advantage of her marriage to a powerful horselord and had her brother, the rightful ruler of Westeros, killed so she could take his claim, and then when she became powerful enough she had her husband murdered so she could be the undisputed ruler. If Dany was more like Cersei, this would be a completely reasonable conclusion to come to, based on the very scant knowledge that Arianne - and Westeros - has, and knowing how infamously ruthless and unstable some Targaryens could be.

7 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Daenerys Targaryen will come to Westeros but it will be by invitation and not an invasion.  All of the leading houses save the Lannisters and the Starks will invite her to take over the kingdom and rule over them. 

I don't see how this could realistically happen. Let's look at what each of the leading houses are currently trying to do:

Baratheon: Stannis will not invite Daenerys. I don't need to elaborate on why. And the stormlands in general won't either, because they're in the process of being conquered by/allied with Aegon, who for all intents and purposes is the Targaryen with the better claim.

Martell: The entire point of Quentyn's storyline was to put a swift, violent end to the idea of a Daenerys/Martell alliance. The Dornish would never accept being allied to the woman that they believe had the son of their prince murdered. There's also Doran's plan to have Arianne form an alliance with Aegon and Connington, which will mean he'll have committed Dorne to the "wrong" Targaryen claimant, from Dany's perspective.

Tyrell: The Tyrells seem far too ambitious and opportunistic to throw away all of their work in elevating the Tyrells to power in King's Landing to just throw it all away and bow down to someone else. I'll grant you that the Tyrells are more likely to ally with Dany than any of the other leading houses, though, so long as they could get some politically valuable marriages, ideally Willas and Dany. But they might have decided that they've played that game long enough, and don't want to just marry into the kingship, but seize it for themselves. Either outcome is plausible.

Tully: If given the chance, Edmure and especially the Blackfish would much sooner side with a resurgent North under a new Stark king or queen than a Targaryen. But if that doesn't happen, and it comes down to supporting Dany or remaining beaten by the Lannisters, they'd obviously support Dany. But at the moment it's a mute point, since the Tullys aren't in charge of anything anymore; their rightful lord is a prisoner on his way to Casterly Rock, and the riverlands are ruled by a Lannister-Frey regime.

"Arryn": This one is more interesting. Littlefinger's scheming seems to be to make Sansa the ruler of a combined North/Vale, although whether as a queen or just a lady is unclear. If it's the former, that'd make an alliance with Dany impossible. If the latter, however, it's possible that Sansa could keep her rule over the North/Vale so long as she bends the knee to Dany as her overlord. It'll depend on what the Northern lords want, though. If they're insistent on restoring their short-lived independence under their own monarch, they wouldn't allow Sansa to bend the knee to Dany.

Greyjoy: Well, Euron's idea of "inviting" Dany to Westeros is to kidnap her and force her into marriage with him. I don't think this quite counts as an invitation, and he certainly wouldn't allow her to have the dominant position in their marriage and rulership. 

[Loose Bolt]

I assume that if Dany comes to Westeros soon enough Boltons and Freys will turn their cloaks again and kneel to her. After all both of those houses are very "practical" and do not care about certain little unimportant things like honor. So if it seems that she is strong enough and she will allow Boltons to keep North and Freys Riverlands those houses will do that. Besides Starks and Tullys were enemies of her house during the Rebellion and so it is possible that she would want new overlords for those "kingdoms".

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that if Dany comes to Westeros soon enough Boltons and Freys will turn their cloaks again and kneel to her. After all both of those houses are very "practical" and do not care about certain little unimportant things like honor. So if it seems that she is strong enough and she will allow Boltons to keep North and Freys Riverlands those houses will do that. Besides Starks and Tullys were enemies of her house during the Rebellion and so it is possible that she would want new overlords for those "kingdoms".

Which is extremely unlikely given that events leading to the end of houses Bolton and Freys are already in motion, especially with the battle of Ice and retaking of Winterfell going to happen soon in the story. 

Besides I don't think that Daenerys would be willing to really ally and reward houses that had proved themselves to be totally self-serving, opportunistic and treacherous and who are so despised by the rest of Westeros after the Red Wedding. 

Another proof of this being that these two houses joined the rebellion against her family too, even if Walder Frey true to himself waited the moment where it was clear the Targaryen's cause was lost to do so.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Arianne is an idiot in general, but I can understand why she'd come to the conclusions that she has about Dany. She doesn't have the insider information about Dany's life that we do. From her perspective, Dany took advantage of her marriage to a powerful horselord and had her brother, the rightful ruler of Westeros, killed so she could take his claim, and then when she became powerful enough she had her husband murdered so she could be the undisputed ruler. If Dany was more like Cersei, this would be a completely reasonable conclusion to come to, based on the very scant knowledge that Arianne - and Westeros - has, and knowing how infamously ruthless and unstable some Targaryens could be.

I don't see how this could realistically happen. Let's look at what each of the leading houses are currently trying to do:

Baratheon: Stannis will not invite Daenerys. I don't need to elaborate on why. And the stormlands in general won't either, because they're in the process of being conquered by/allied with Aegon, who for all intents and purposes is the Targaryen with the better claim.

Martell: The entire point of Quentyn's storyline was to put a swift, violent end to the idea of a Daenerys/Martell alliance. The Dornish would never accept being allied to the woman that they believe had the son of their prince murdered. There's also Doran's plan to have Arianne form an alliance with Aegon and Connington, which will mean he'll have committed Dorne to the "wrong" Targaryen claimant, from Dany's perspective.

Tyrell: The Tyrells seem far too ambitious and opportunistic to throw away all of their work in elevating the Tyrells to power in King's Landing to just throw it all away and bow down to someone else. I'll grant you that the Tyrells are more likely to ally with Dany than any of the other leading houses, though, so long as they could get some politically valuable marriages, ideally Willas and Dany. But they might have decided that they've played that game long enough, and don't want to just marry into the kingship, but seize it for themselves. Either outcome is plausible.

Tully: If given the chance, Edmure and especially the Blackfish would much sooner side with a resurgent North under a new Stark king or queen than a Targaryen. But if that doesn't happen, and it comes down to supporting Dany or remaining beaten by the Lannisters, they'd obviously support Dany. But at the moment it's a mute point, since the Tullys aren't in charge of anything anymore; their rightful lord is a prisoner on his way to Casterly Rock, and the riverlands are ruled by a Lannister-Frey regime.

"Arryn": This one is more interesting. Littlefinger's scheming seems to be to make Sansa the ruler of a combined North/Vale, although whether as a queen or just a lady is unclear. If it's the former, that'd make an alliance with Dany impossible. If the latter, however, it's possible that Sansa could keep her rule over the North/Vale so long as she bends the knee to Dany as her overlord. It'll depend on what the Northern lords want, though. If they're insistent on restoring their short-lived independence under their own monarch, they wouldn't allow Sansa to bend the knee to Dany.

Greyjoy: Well, Euron's idea of "inviting" Dany to Westeros is to kidnap her and force her into marriage with him. I don't think this quite counts as an invitation, and he certainly wouldn't allow her to have the dominant position in their marriage and rulership. 

Besides, Arianne is struggling with her own guilt about her feelings towards Quentyn.  She’s hoping for his death, at the same time as denying it to herself.

I agree, the Tyrells will be the most likely allies.  They are the enemies of Aegon and the Dornish.

[Darth Sidious]

Tyrells, Asha Greyjoy, most of the River lords, half of Dorne, the Harlaws, Hightower, Redwyne, etc.  Basically all those who are not in the Stark, Baratheon, and Lannister camp.  I wouldn't mind seeing the Starks, Baratheons, and Lannisters perish in a second field of fire.  

[BlackLightning]

15 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Arianne is an idiot in general, but I can understand why she'd come to the conclusions that she has about Dany. She doesn't have the insider information about Dany's life that we do. From her perspective, Dany took advantage of her marriage to a powerful horselord and had her brother, the rightful ruler of Westeros, killed so she could take his claim, and then when she became powerful enough she had her husband murdered so she could be the undisputed ruler. If Dany was more like Cersei, this would be a completely reasonable conclusion to come to, based on the very scant knowledge that Arianne - and Westeros - has, and knowing how infamously ruthless and unstable some Targaryens could be.

I actually don't think Arianne is an idiot. I think she's one of the craftier characters in the story. Remember, she came to the same conclusion about using Myrcella that Tyrion did. And Tyrion is far from being an idiot. Had Tyrion gone to Dorne like he wanted/expected, they would've likely collaborated and, dare I say, been a lot more successful than Arianne alone.

Arianne's #1 problem has nothing to do with her being stupid. It has more to do with the fact that she is misinformed--misinformed about everything almost all of the time. Sometimes, it isn't her fault and sometimes it is.

Arianne's second problem is pretty much a continuation/complication of the first problem: she is surrounded by people who know more and have better connections than she does. The information Arianne tends to act on is either completely false, incomplete and/or lacking context.

But yeah: Arianne's storyline seems to be about fake news and her inability/unwillingness to check her sources or wait until she has more information is going to get her and/or someone else killed.

[Lord Lannister]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I actually don't think Arianne is an idiot. I think she's one of the craftier characters in the story. Remember, she came to the same conclusion about using Myrcella that Tyrion did. And Tyrion is far from being an idiot. Had Tyrion gone to Dorne like he wanted/expected, they would've likely collaborated and, dare I say, been a lot more successful than Arianne alone.

Arianne's #1 problem has nothing to do with her being stupid. It has more to do with the fact that she is misinformed--misinformed about everything almost all of the time. Sometimes, it isn't her fault and sometimes it is.

Arianne's second problem is pretty much a continuation/complication of the first problem: she is surrounded by people who know more and have better connections than she does. The information Arianne tends to act on is either completely false, incomplete and/or lacking context.

But yeah: Arianne's storyline seems to be about fake news and her inability/unwillingness to check her sources or wait until she has more information is going to get her and/or someone else killed.

I think Arianne's attempt at crowning Myrcella queen can be summarized as interesting idea, utterly terrible execution. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

23 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think Arianne's attempt at crowning Myrcella queen can be summarized as interesting idea, utterly terrible execution. 

At least it wasn't the completely stupid and petty plan made by her cousin Obara. Though as Doran pointed out to Tyenne it's unlikely this plan of crowning Myrcella queen would have worked anyway, since all the other kingdoms have males coming before females in the line of succession, not counting how low their opinion of Dorne is for most inhabitants of the other kingdoms.