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US Politics: Cancelling Democracy


DanteGabriel

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21 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

You people still don't understand what you're fighting against. 

Police, corporations, politicians, and now the very 'justice' department itself implicitly (at LEAST) condone the use of political violence towards objectives explicitly subversive to the concept of shared democratic institutions and traditions. They will not be punished for this

They support such practices towards the purpose of removing individual autonomy and diluting the capacity for popular will to be enacted through peaceful means. 

You're in a war and you're losing so badly that you still think you're in one country. 

None of this is news to me. And I think the end point of our zeitgeist is mostly unavoidable absent a giant change in public opinion and behavior. 

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11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

None of this is news to me. And I think the end point of our zeitgeist is mostly unavoidable absent a giant change in public opinion and behavior. 

But what makes that change? What action that can be undertaken could arrest our fall into that end point? 

Facts, truth, video evidence and recorded statements have only served to further empower the drivers of minority rule and anti-democracy. 

I keep hearing about the polls and the majority, the majority, the majority of Americans like it fucking matters what they want. The majority doesn't give a fuck. In fact, they have proven that. We matched for women, they marched against Congress -and got their anti-women ends realized-. 

We matched against police violence, they fucking killed police and us and are still going to be rewarded with the levers of power again.

One side acts. The other side jerks off to polling data and congratulates itself for being 'right'. Righter all the time, it's starting to seem to me in this country. 

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12 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

One side acts. The other side jerks off to polling data

I can promise you jerking off to polling data is incredibly bipartisan.  Not to mention perhaps nobody in this country is more obsessed with (his own) polling than Donald Trump.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Much more the former, within reason.  It's the same rationale Obama used when he made it clear upon entering office he was not going to pursue prosecution of the Bush administration.  Now, I thought that was a mistake in terms of not going after certain other officials within Dubya's administration, but I did agree at the time with Obama's determination to put the kibosh on prosecuting Dubya himself pretty much immediately (or IIRC before he even took office).

Do you think that if they had a truly slam dunk case against Trump for any crime, they would refrain from going after him, and would refrain out of adherence to institutionalism?    I suspect a lot of reticence stems from the desire to avoid the catastrophic outcome of Trump failing to be convicted.  

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

At this point the J6C has established that those around Trump were aware that there was a premeditated plan to send the crowd to the Capitol, and that the goal was to in someway disrupt the certification process. And then that happened exactly as planned. The crowd would not have done so without Trump egging them on. If that's not incitement then word then had no meaning

The problem is as was laid out above, there's no intent to actually go after Trump. They simply lack the guts and will to do so. Another wonderful example of Democratic leaders not recognizing they're in a fight and are totally unprepared. Wunderbar... 

The word has meaning in the court of public opinion, but also has specific legal standards that I'm not sure are satisfied by what we've seen so far.  Most of Hutchinson's testimony couldn't be used as evidence, for example.   I think an actual trial for this would languish in technical hell and result in him walking free.  The hearings might be the best forum for telling the story of his guilt precisely because it is not bounded by the very narrow technical definitions of the particular crimes.

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26 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

But what makes that change? What action that can be undertaken could arrest our fall into that end point? 

Facts, truth, video evidence and recorded statements have only served to further empower the drivers of minority rule and anti-democracy. 

Idk. I said here and elsewhere years ago that the only thing that could shake conservatives of Trumpism is a catastrophic event so egregious that they'd have no choice but to accept they were wrong. And then the pandemic happened, which was actually worse than what I had in mind and it only entrenched their positions. Trumpism is here to stay.

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13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I can promise you jerking off to polling data is incredibly bipartisan.  Not to mention perhaps nobody in this country is more obsessed with (his own) polling than Donald Trump.

Why would I begrudge them their faps? They got what they wanted. They deserve a good jerking off.

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well this is one positive:

 

I see an acknowledgement that Democrats are utterly powerless to actually hold the perpetrators of violence accountable and want to put up a new coat of paint instead. Just as soon as the fascists 'iron out' the language that lets them do what the Fuck they want anyway 

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7 minutes ago, butterbumps! said:

  I suspect a lot of reticence stems from the desire to avoid the catastrophic outcome of Trump failing to be convicted.  

An attorney I follow on Twitter reminded her readers of a few things; complex investigations take time, grand juries are secret, and knowing someone is guilty is not the same as proving that guilt.  My sense from her and other articles and whatnot, the DOJ won't bring an indictment until it can prove the charges.  "If you come after the king you best not miss."

It's hell waiting and hoping.   :frown5:

 

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2 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

The word has meaning in the court of public opinion, but also has specific legal standards that I'm not sure are satisfied by what we've seen so far.  Most of Hutchinson's testimony couldn't be used as evidence, for example.   I think an actual trial for this would languish in technical hell and result in him walking free.  The hearings might be the best forum for telling the story of his guilt precisely because it is not bounded by the very narrow technical definitions of the particular crimes.

It's not just her testimony, we now have several accounts of people saying they knew there was a plan to direct the crowd to march on the mall. It was not spontaneous and there appears to be clear intent.

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18 minutes ago, butterbumps! said:

Do you think that if they had a truly slam dunk case against Trump for any crime, they would refrain from going after him, and would refrain out of adherence to institutionalism?    I suspect a lot of reticence stems from the desire to avoid the catastrophic outcome of Trump failing to be convicted. 

I can't really answer that question without more details, and frankly I don't care to get into such convoluted hypotheticals.  But part of it, sure, is the difficulty and uncertainty of securing a conviction - especially considering the current environment.  That's part and parcel of the instability and political capital concerns I mentioned.

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well this is one positive

Reforming the ECA should be done and is..long overdue, but that's not the real threat regarding how they're gonna steal 2024.  It's the provisions in the state laws ceding authority and discretion on election administration to state legislatures.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

I don't care to get into such convoluted hypotheticals.

Convoluted hypotheticals don't stop you much when comes to electoral campaigns and etc.  :rolleyes: :cheers:  Just sayin' ya know! 

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2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Convoluted hypotheticals don't stop you much when comes to electoral campaigns and etc.  :rolleyes: :cheers:  Just sayin' ya know! 

Sure they would if they entailed convoluted specifics like what crime are we talking about, how much of a "slam dunk" case is it, etc.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Reforming the ECA should be done and is..long overdue, but that's not the real threat regarding how they're gonna steal 2024.  It's the provisions in the state laws ceding authority and discretion on election administration to state legislatures.

Thank god 2022 isn't going to be a bloodbath at the state level. Oh, wait...

Still it's good to see they were able to do something, in theory, as little as it is. Because that's all we can ask for now. Fun watching the slow burn of modern day Rome. 

Enjoy your return to Florida. :P

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6 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

I suspect a lot of reticence stems from the desire to avoid the catastrophic outcome of Trump failing to be convicted.  

If he gets convicted there will be riots and massacres, and republicans far more competent than him will use the imprisonment to rally their base.

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Strong, brave, unstoppable! I'm the Punisher In Blue, Camo & Fatigues, Got Body Armor, Got Assault Weapons, Got My Buddies, You Pu$$ies Gimme Me My RESPECT!

Why the Uvalde “Hand Sanitizer Cop” Is So Unforgettable
It’s the perfectly grim encapsulation of this moment.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/07/hand-sanitizer-cop-uvalde.html

Quote

.... The American-Statesman edited this footage down to a four-minute long version of the video that shows what the paper’s Manny Garcia termed “critical moments.” Among those are two that are not likely to be included in official timelines, but are indelible when viewed in the moment. First, at 11:36 a.m. (2:22 timestamp in the Statesman’s four-minute edit), an officer takes out his phone and looks at it, holding it in his left hand, while his right hand points his weapon at the ground. His phone’s lock screen is the logo for the Punisher, a Marvel antihero whose bloody vigilantism has made him a favorite of cops and soldiers nationwide in the past few decades. Many of us have lived for years seeing that particular stylized skull, with its four elongated lines in lieu of teeth and a chin, on pickup trucks, flags, and t-shirts—years being a tiny bit afraid, upon seeing it, that this person, who is certainly armed, is not to be trusted. Now, we’ve seen it on the phone of a guy who did absolutely nothing when it really counted.

But if I were nominating “Camera on the wall of the Robb Elementary hallway” for the Photo of the Year award, I’d submit, instead, the freeze-frame on one officer at 12:30 p.m. (3:20 timestamp in the Statesman’s four-minute edit). This officer, wearing a helmet and a ballistic vest over his checked button-up shirt, steps toward the hand sanitizer dispenser mounted on the wall of the hallway, takes a squirt, and rubs it on his hands. Then, he takes cover, once again, behind the corner. When the classroom is finally breached, at 12:50 p.m., he’s looking at his phone.

The hand sanitizer moment is striking, when you first see it, but it’s also impossible to shake. I’m certainly not alone in fixating on it. This is a classic punctum: that moment captured in a photograph that means something slightly different to everyone, and that challenges you, making it difficult to understand why it’s so moving. That’s why this guy is becoming a meme. (One Twitter user asked the DALL-E generator to show images of “cop getting hand sanitizer during a school shooting,” with extremely grim results, and there’s a lot of “out, out damn spot.”) ....

 

 

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7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If he gets convicted there will be riots and massacres, and republicans far more competent than him will use the imprisonment to rally their base.

Even if he isn't convicted -- even if/as he's not even held accountable at all -- this is what we've got.  Gee whiz.

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