[No Spoilers] Episode 106 Discussion

[Ran]

Spoiler free discussion here.

[Zorral]

This was quite the dragony episode.

Honestly, really, at a royal court, is there any frakin' way a queen consort could order the heir to the throne to have her newborn baby brought to her?  No.  Just. No.

Also, no. Rhaenyra's children cannot be bastards by at least some vaguely European medieval blablabla because she is married and her husband is perfectly happy to claim them as his children.  And is bastardy an actual problem in this world -- just one of the many 'medievalisms' that are only vaguely referred to, w/o any real consideration.

Beyond that, the actor doing Larys is channeling John Malkovich channeling Talleyrand in Napoleon (2002), which includes one of the favorite lines in history of the Napoleonic eras: Napoleon calling out Talleyrand, who is of noble blood -- and also has  clubfoot: "You are nothing but a turd in a silk stocking," and sends him packing. (He goes to England, returns, and is still a player at the end of the wars, at Vienna's conference in which the victors divide the spoils.) The actor's got Malkovich's physical and language delivery down pat.

Why must we be treated with a scene of Alicent’s first born jacking off over King’s Landing just like what’s his name doing it in HBO's Succession?  Puleeeze. Not to mention what a shyte thing to do to this young actor, just for an HBO joke.

Why must Harwin be stripped of his position, for protecting the child of the Princess, Heir to the Realm, when Criston who murdered a friend of the groom at the Heir to the Realm's wedding festivities still be hangin' round, hmmm?

Gotta say Rhaenrya shows some smarts as a ruler in this episode.  Alicent has become a poisonous person all together, filled with victimhood, quite like, um, other siblings I have known.

When, how, why did Laena claim this dragon, who is enormous? So must be ancient hundreds of years older than she is, yet seems to be bonded with her?  That is a story I'd loved to have seen.  And I loved Laena, and wish we had some of her, instead of some of the others. Well, Daemon's again wifeless, though this round one may think soon Rhaenyra will also be husbandless.  Sigh.  This cannot end well.

I also loved Laena's brother, who seems to be a very nice husband.  So surely he's not much longer for this world either, since we must get on with the slaughter.

Also King V is awfully perky for someone who has been at death's door for about 20 years! 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

Liking this much better than a lot prior.

Really getting into this, here. Especially as Ser Criston is such a jilted lover; holy shit.

And Alicent seems to have adopted the color green.

Spoilers galore in the other thread, lol. 

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Honestly, really, at a royal court, is there any frakin' way a queen consort could order the heir to the throne to have her newborn baby brought to her?  No.  Just. No.

She is a bitch for that.

But yeah. As long as Viserys lives, Alicent outranks Rhaenyra. So, yes...Alicent can order Rhaenyra about and Rhaenyra will be forced to obey. The only person Alicent can't push around is the King and, by extension, the Hand of the King.

 

[Zorral]

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

As long as Viserys lives, Alicent outranks Rhaenyra

She doesn't, not really.  She's queen consort; she hasn't been crowned (or if she has, we haven't seen it -- but then there's loads we don't see, such as how and when Laena got that huge dragon). 

An adult Heir's always got a lot more power than a queen, unless, the queen's the Heir's mother, and the mom has established such a relationship of dominance, as with Louis VII's mother and the shyte she did to Louis and Eleanor. It even took a lot of time for Catherine d'Medici to gather such power -- power which we do not see Alicent possessing.  In this family, Rhaenyra's father dotes on her, in a way he doesn't even on his wife.  This is just more bad writing/plotting.  Especially as this is the third baby and everyone knows the sitch already.  They at least could have shown Alicent working on King V to call for his new grandson immediately because she was so eager to welcome the kid into the family.  At least that's how I'm reading this!  

One would also think that Rhaena would have flown to Pentos to be with Laena for the birthing.  Maybe they felt they'd granted us enough dragon for the episode, with so much spectacular dragon scenes already, but we wouldn't have had to see her flying.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Zorral

[Ran]

Viserys is weak and has allowed Alicent to work at him over and over. He can barely muster energy to tell her to lay off. In the name of domestic tranquility, he has no doubt pressed Rhaenyra to try and please Alicent, and Rhaneyra has decided the cost of the humiliation is less than the cost of her father being upset at her.

This is a sign of a dysfunctional court with a weak and ill king, IMO.

[Zorral]

The court is dysfunctional, as generallly courts are.  Yet he will not allow Alicent to dictate about his daughter and her family.

Remember in the second episode, I think, when Alicent tells bratty Rhaenyra to leave the Tree, the minstrel and the book to join the party, and Rhaenyra wasn't having it, until it was established the king requested her presence?  That hasn't changed.  But the writers, well they felt this was a terrific opener, so they didn't do a thing to make this plausible.

Not can we figure out why in hell Larys murders (and so horribly!) his father and his brother!  Neither of them bully and abuse him; the only implications we have been given is that both of them treat him well and lovingly, and do as best on his behalf as they can.  So, a green psychopath, Larys, up against, we presume, a black psychopath, Daemon?  The structuralism is nice, but there is no motivation for Larys doing this to his own family, at least that we've been given, other than he's congenitally a nasty piece of work.  If he's really such a successful player/schemer it would certainly be in his best interest to keep them alive and remain in their family, because that would give him a lot more of a solid platform from which to gather influence among all factions.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Zorral

[Corvinus85]

15 hours ago, Zorral said:

Also, no. Rhaenyra's children cannot be bastards by at least some vaguely European medieval blablabla because she is married and her husband is perfectly happy to claim them as his children.  And is bastardy an actual problem in this world -- just one of the many 'medievalisms' that are only vaguely referred to, w/o any real consideration.

Yes, it was a major plot point in Game of Thrones. It's still the same world.

[Zorral]

@Corvinus85 -- The show is doing a very poor job of establishing any of this.  The only person who seems to give a damn about this is Alicent, whose motives are certainly impure, and her now lackey, Criston, who is just spite personified, and surely should have been executed for attacking the Groomsman to the groom not only at a wedding feast of said groom to the heir, but for doing violence in the presence of the king -- if, indeed, we're going to go all vague medievalish --or even any court any time, just about everywhere.

The real problem, all of this, is caused by first, Otto, and then his daughter Alicent. First he, and then very soon Alicent, after having babies.  Babies which Alicent gives no indication she even likes, unlike Rhaenyra, who is the one we would have guessed beforehand would have been the indifferent mother -- but she clearly bonds at birth with all of them, and love them dearly -- and enjoys them as persons.  They have been plotting since long before Rhaenyra marries to make the throne their family's.  Everything happens because of this.

That we get to see this on screen, Rhaenyra doing that mom-newborn bonding with that baby, and those scenes with her older sons, shows us a great deal about Rhaenyra maturing and growing from the rather unpleasant YA person we see first.  This, along with the scene at the Small Council, where she proposes something smart, and then even proposes a marriage alliance with Alicent, shows her learning to be a ruler, and already one more effective than her father.  And certainly Alicent, who like Criston, is merely shell filled with the black bile of victimhood and rancor, and hatred and resentment -- of Rhaenyra.

Of the trio of plotters here: Alicent, Larys and Criston -- only Criston might have a legitimate reason, but that she wouldn't run away with him is certainly not really -- particularly if we are being all vaguely medievalish here!   They are truly ugly people, all three.  We cannot ever forget that Larys murdered in a horrible way both father and brother for no reason at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Thinking about this it is clear none of the events or characters in this series register an emotional affect beyond 'flat'.  Neither pleasure nor pain, beyond the empathy for women going through the agonies of childbirth and the tragedy of their deaths, bringing up an empathic echo of Laoner's, "I'm glad I'm not a woman."  Indeed.  The only emotions that register projected from any of them are the petty resentments and hatreds of Alicent & Co.

Why this should be, I don't know.  Maybe because the scenes are all so dimly lit, which spotlight then, the rats's fiesta that is King's Landing and the Red Keep.

Nor can one avoid being puzzled indeed upon seeing that now Daemon's been able to finish, and even finish with three children by his wife.  How is this possible, when he couldn't with Misyria, Rhea or Rhaenyra?  What made this different?  There's no clue, so this makes no sense.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Zorral

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

@Corvinus85 -- The show is doing a very poor job of establishing any of this.

Did you miss the dialogue between Viserys and Alicent, where he cautions her that what she is toying with are very serious accusations? Or Lyonel Strong's anger with his son in their secret conversation, where he doesn't mince words and clearly states that this is a life and death situation.

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

The real problem, all of this, is caused by first, Otto, and then his daughter Alicent. First he, and then very soon Alicent, after having babies.  Babies which Alicent gives no indication she even likes, unlike Rhaenyra, who is the one we would have guessed beforehand would have been the indifferent mother -- but she clearly bonds at birth with all of them, and love them dearly -- and enjoys them as persons.  They have been plotting since long before Rhaenyra marries to make the throne their family's.  Everything happens because of this.

Yes, it starts with Otto. It continues with Alicent being a dutiful wife to Viserys and producing children. While Rhaenyra goes frolicking in the city with her uncle, having an affair with a Kingsguard knight, and in the 10 year time skip having 3 bastard children with another knight. It's clear that Alicent has developed resentment for Rhaenyra due to the differences in their lives. (This considering that they had one thing in common - both are motherless) In Alicent's eyes Rhaenyra is untrustworthy because she lied to her face and she flaunts her bastard children. Otto's words likely haunt her and she cannot permit Rhaenyra taking the throne.

This isn't an argument for Alicent's sake, it's me disagreeing with you saying the show is not doing a good job relaying motivations and the structure of this fantasy medieval world.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Corvinus85

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Did you miss the dialogue between Viserys and Alicent, where he cautions her that what she is toying with are very serious accusations? Or Lyonel Strong's anger with his son in their secret conversation, where he doesn't mince words and clearly states that this is a life and death situation.

Nope, did not miss -- and it wasn't enough, since Alicent will not let it go even when King V orders her not to.  Why won't she let it go?  Why?  Her nasty daddy, who started the whole mess?

Rhaenyra isn't doing that frolicking now is she? But they don't show us why she was able to grow up and be a responsible adult and good mom -- they do show us she did.  Whereas Alicent keeps evermore shrinking into her shriveled toxic soul.  Why?  Again, it's her dad right?

But more to the point, they aren't able to make us give a daman about any of them or even what happens to any of them.

I am sorry for the small folk though.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Zorral

[Darzin]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:38 AM, Zorral said:

This was quite the dragony episode.

Honestly, really, at a royal court, is there any frakin' way a queen consort could order the heir to the throne to have her newborn baby brought to her?  No.  Just. No.

Also, no. Rhaenyra's children cannot be bastards by at least some vaguely European medieval blablabla because she is married and her husband is perfectly happy to claim them as his children.  And is bastardy an actual problem in this world -- just one of the many 'medievalisms' that are only vaguely referred to, w/o any real consideration.

I do think your deep knowledge of history is hurting your ability to enjoy the series a bit. Maybe it's impossible to turn off but Westros while borrowing a lot of "medievalisms" isn't actual history. The faith for example acts nothing like the Catholic church despite it's Catholic trappings especially when you consider it's relatioship with the old gods. I  don't find this a problem though because Westros isn't Europe and GRRM has sketched out this relationship on it's on terms plausibly enough. 

I think Alicent ordering Rhaenyra exposes a bit of the weakness of Rhaenyra's position as well as the knowledge that with Viserys old and sick the difference between the king's orders and the queen's orders are not so clear. As it was Viserys seemed completely oblivious to the toll it took on Rhaenyra. Which seemed somewhat in character.

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

Nor can one avoid being puzzled indeed upon seeing that now Daemon's been able to finish, and even finish with three children by his wife.  How is this possible, when he couldn't with Misyria, Rhea or Rhaenyra?  What made this different?  There's no clue, so this makes no sense.

 

I wondered this as well. It seemed such a major plot point for the first half of the series. I do wonder if this is something explained more in the books? Because it seemed like something got cut. I kept waiting for some reveal to explain it but it never happened. 

Overall I found this the weakest episode of the series, it really suffered for the time jump, and maybe should have been tow episodes. 16 ish years is a long time and the series clearly needed a bit more breathing room to establish character motivations and the dynamics of kings landing.

[Zorral]

12 hours ago, Darzin said:

I do think your deep knowledge of history is hurting your ability to enjoy the series a bit.

In the sense sure because they do such stupid things with even the 'medievalish' claims.  Also so many people think this is actually how the Middle Ages were, right down to it being one thing and it stays that way until suddenly Renaissance.  How many hundreds of years are we in the middle ageish times of Westros -- and yet everything is exactly the same: no innovations in all the aspects that makes a culture, which often have lasting effect and matter sometimes far more than any political moment?  It takes so little to show these w/o even having to comment, after all. That's what good story telling is, no matter what the mode the story's told in, whether a folk or fairy tale recited  around a fireside in a serf's hovel, or in a television series that has millions of dollars to spend.

But really the problem is that it is flat.  There is no emotional stake generated in any of it in the watcher. Which leaves all sorts of room for historical observation as well as structural, narrative flaws as well.

Others deal with it by filling it in from their years of poring over texts generated about this fictional universe.  But one cannot call something good if that's what it takes to enjoy / understand what's up, right? 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Zorral

[Winterfell is Burning]

23 hours ago, Zorral said:

In the sense sure because they do such stupid things with even the 'medievalish' claims.  Also so many people think this is actually how the Middle Ages were, right down to it being one thing and it stays that way until suddenly Renaissance.  How many hundreds of years are we in the middle ageish times of Westros -- and yet everything is exactly the same: no innovations in all the aspects that makes a culture, which often have lasting effect and matter sometimes far more than any political moment?  It takes so little to show these w/o even having to comment, after all. That's what good story telling is, no matter what the mode the story's told in, whether a folk or fairy tale recited  around a fireside in a serf's hovel, or in a television series that has millions of dollars to spend.

But really the problem is that it is flat.  There is no emotional stake generated in any of it in the watcher. Which leaves all sorts of room for historical observation as well as structural, narrative flaws as well.

Others deal with it by filling it in from their years of poring over texts generated about this fictional universe.  But one cannot call something good if that's what it takes to enjoy / understand what's up, right? 

 

The thing is that there are innovations, it's just that the characters might not be aware of it. If you do a deep dive from the beginning, it's clear that early in the history of Westeros, it's very much a Bronze Age period. By the series going, it's late medieval, but the characters probably don't know the difference, apart from maybe the ones with a deeper history knowledge.

Plus, a society that both magic and unpredictable seasons probably would progress a lot slower in technology than a real life one.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

a society that both magic and unpredictable seasons probably would progress a lot slower in technology than a real life one.

Why would that be? It's not as though magic is employed to build water mills or farm.

[Winterfell is Burning]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Why would that be? It's not as though magic is employed to build water mills or farm.

War is often the cause of many of scientific advancements- if you have magic or dragons, not much of a point to develop technology too much. Specially if the magic also has other uses. 

 

[Zorral]

But Westros is always at war!  Also what use has magic been in Westros at all?  None that I ever saw.  Except for the faceless men, whomever/whatever that's about -- and is it even magic, or just extraordinary skillz, which Arya masters herself as far as it goes.

17 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

magic also has other uses. 

 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Wrong thread.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[EggBlue]

On 9/28/2022 at 11:33 AM, Darzin said:

I wondered this as well. It seemed such a major plot point for the first half of the series. I do wonder if this is something explained more in the books? Because it seemed like something got cut. I kept waiting for some reveal to explain it but it never happened. 

that plot point is an invention of the show . in the books Daemon and Rhea never have children as well , but it's only explained by "the marriage wasn't a success" and the fact that they barely live in the same place . 

I don't know if they are planning to do anything with that . but if I had to guess, I'd say they have unintentionally implied Daemon's impotency so many times! does that make any sense?! 

[C.T. Phipps]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:26 PM, Zorral said:

Nope, did not miss -- and it wasn't enough, since Alicent will not let it go even when King V orders her not to.  Why won't she let it go?  Why?  Her nasty daddy, who started the whole mess?

Because the past ten years have basically been one long slog for her and the fact that she is forced to dutifully obey while Rhaenyra does what she wants drives her crazy. Rhaenyra lied to her and keeps lying constantly and it drives Alicent mad that she gets away with it.

But yes, we're not missing an episode or two anymore. We're missing a season.

Edited September 30, 2022 by C.T. Phipps