[Poll] How would you rate episode 109?

[TormundsWoman]

21 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

just how do you imagine you or anyone will be able to claim that after Blood and Cheese happens?

I thought about that myself. I’ve seen people already assuming that it will be Mysaria’s doing with no involvement from the Blacks. And I do wonder as other here did, if the writers will in fact adapt that bit as it is. There may be some limits to what HBO is willing to show. Though clearly foot fetish jerk off is not one of them!

However you can bet there will be an explanation to why that murder is not good enough to prove that Rhaenyra’s party has dark tendencies and murderous streak when it suits them.

[butterweedstrover]

33 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

This is so funny. The same thing happens on Twitter all the time. Green stans complaining that Rhaenyra and the Blacks been "whitewashed",  while Black stans are complaining that Alicent and the Greens have been "whitewashed". It's hilarious. (BTW, I'm seeing worse takes here than on Twitter. That's quite an accomplishment.)

I don't know how it's possible to have watched the show and come to the conclusion that Rhaenyra has no flaws and, even weirder, that "everyone on the Green side is a psychopath"?! What? Not a single person on the show apart from Larys has been portrayed as a psychopath. And everyone on the show has been fleshed out and given sympathetic and relatable traits - making me care about the whole lot of them a lot more than in the books.

Rhaenyra isn't being "Maegor with tits" and ripping people's tongues out or feeding them to her dragon, just like Alicent isn't evil stepmother/ruthless social climber because it makes for a much better story if the characters aren't horrible to begin with and people can relate and care about them and root for them, and if Rhaenyra only goes darker and really breaks bad after the war starts and she suffers real losses.

Even so, so far she's already shown a worrying tendency to not care about the wellbeing of anyone other than the people she loves. From teenage Rhaenyra not being even interested in whether one of her suitors just got killed by another, who was a kid and would probably be traumatised as hell: to adult Rhaenyra not giving a damn that her 10 year half brother just lost an eye and asking the king that he be sharply questioned about the identity of the person spreading "rumors" about her sons' parentage (which Viserys had just declared treason and threatened to  cut people's tongues for it, so basically, come on kid, get someone into the mortal danger kind of trouble now); to, of course, agreeing that future husband murders a random servant on Driftmark so the two of them could marry and her first husband could get his happy ending too. (Who cares about servants and common people in general, right? They're not real people.)

And this is me saying as someone who really likes Rhaenyra and doesn't begrudge her for her messy personal life or for trying to pass off her bastards as trueborn (I get it) or call her spoiled or entitled (they're all nobles and she was heir to the crown, what do you expect?), which many, many do.

Even if you really believe the Blacks have been portrayed as perfect and Greens as totally evil, which is far from the truth- just how do you imagine you or anyone will be able to claim that after Blood and Cheese happens?

Well, I’d suggest you read my post previous to the one you quoted for a better understanding of what I am trying to say. 
 

But, TDLR: Rhaenyra shows no response to Alicent’s rivalry either on an emotional level or political level. She shows an inexplicable lack of investment in this ‘friendship’ by remaining purely diplomatic. 

Alicent, opposite to that, shows no affection for Rhaenyra as her pursuit of the throne is done without reluctance or internal conflict. She only mends ties with Rhaenyra to be what she considers herself to be, a devoted wife to Viserys. 

The entire premise of their rivalry is unfounded giving Alicent no real motivation in seeing Aegon as king. Which makes her side pointless to the overall narrative, and the characters who are ostensibly sane become lunatics given how their actions don’t correspond with their emotions or self-perception. 
 

The Blacks, meanwhile, are left to be colorless good guys with no distinguishing factors from one another.

Edited October 18, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Annara Snow]

34 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

I thought about that myself. I’ve seen people already assuming that it will be Mysaria’s doing with no involvement from the Blacks. And I do wonder as other here did, if the writers will in fact adapt that bit as it is. There may be some limits to what HBO is willing to show. Though clearly foot fetish jerk off is not one of them!

 

Why on Planetos would Mysaria have any interest in doing that on her own?!

And what limits do they have? So far we've had graphic beheadings, child mutilation, children being forced to fight each other after having their teeth and nails sharpened... and that scene is largely about Sophie's Choice type psychological torture.

Quote

However you can bet there will be an explanation to why that murder is not good enough to prove that Rhaenyra’s party has dark tendencies and murderous streak when it suits them.

? 

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

Practically speaking, and assuming characters act in a way that is consistent with how they have been portrayed, of course the Blacks should have Rhaenyra and all of her children killed.

It's not about what I want as a matter of rooting interest, it's about internal consistency in the narrative. This show, in many and sundry ways, often chooses spectacle over consistency. They rely on that spectacle and strongly communicated emotional markers to cover for the absence of more intricately written portrayals of events and it is, in my opinion, a subpar, aggravating and nonsensical approach to storytelling.

Alicent was against that in this episode. Are you complaining about that too?

[Annara Snow]

40 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

The Blacks, meanwhile, are left to be colorless good guys with no distinguishing factors from one another.

So you see tge Blacks as consisting only of the kids, without Daemon or Rhaenyra (or Corlys or Rhaenys)? That's the only way I can make sense of that statement (though I'd say the  kids too have been idealized by the fandom compared to their actual behavior - in no other show would ever children or teenagers be called innocent angels while participating in bullying and  starting fights that involve deadly weapons).

Edited October 18, 2022 by Annara Snow

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

So you see tge Blacks as consisting only of the kids, without Daemon or Rhaenyra (or Corlys or Rhaenys)? That's the only way I can make sense of that statement (though I'd say the  kids too have been idealized by the fandom compared to their actual behavior - in no other show would ever children or teenagers be called innocent angels while participating in bullying and  starting fights that involve deadly weapons).

I mean all of them, including Daemon. 

Put yourself in Dragonstone for a second. Whereas the Greens suffer from a lack of motivation, the Blacks suffer from the opposite, that being too much motivation. 

The choice but in front of them is between morality and material gain or immorality and material loss. There is no real debate to be had and therefore much of their philosophical differences have no outlet to manifest. They are all on the good side and have a shared purpose making for very bland characterization. 

Daemon's cruelty has always been superficial btw but now it has to take a permanent backseat as he becomes the hero. 

[Annara Snow]

11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean all of them, including Daemon. 

Put yourself in Dragonstone for a second. Whereas the Greens suffer from a lack of motivation, the Blacks suffer from the opposite, that being too much motivation. 

The choice but in front of them is between morality and material gain or immorality and material loss. There is no real debate to be had and therefore much of their philosophical differences have no outlet to manifest. They are all on the good side and have a shared purpose making for very bland characterization. 

Daemon's cruelty has always been superficial btw but now it has to take a permanent backseat as he becomes the hero. 

I'm out.

To quote Buffy: "I don't see this being settled with logic."

[DMC]

24 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

And what limits do they have? So far we've had graphic beheadings, child mutilation, children being forced to fight each other after having their teeth and nails sharpened... and that scene is largely about Sophie's Choice type psychological torture.

This was discussed yesterday in the other thread, but I do think HBO will be reticent to actually show the decapitation of a 8 year old (or younger) boy.  That doesn't mean the scene won't play out essentially how it did in the books, but actually showing that on screen would be quite controversial.

[butterweedstrover]

8 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I'm out.

To quote Buffy: "I don't see this being settled with logic."

Indeed, there is not much logic on your side since you believe Alicent is a nuanced character and the Greens have depth. 
 

Or that the Blacks are anything but heroes whose crimes have no narrative consequence.

[Annara Snow]

26 minutes ago, DMC said:

This was discussed yesterday in the other thread, but I do think HBO will be reticent to actually show the decapitation of a 8 year old (or younger) boy.  That doesn't mean the scene won't play out essentially how it did in the books, but actually showing that on screen would be quite controversial.

I don't think they need to show it on screen as they did with Vaemond. They can cut away and just show Helaena's reaction.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't think they need to show it on screen as they did with Vaemond. They can cut away and just show Helaena's reaction.

Yeah I suspect that's what they'll do.  Just wanted to clarify what some "limitations" may be.

[Ser Not Appearing]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Alicent was against that in this episode. Are you complaining about that too?

No. I'm talking about something entirely different and you keep bringing this up for some reason.

Besides, Allicent wasn't against it. She was against it as a first measure.

[TormundsWoman]

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Why on Planetos would Mysaria have any interest in doing that on her own?!

 

? 

To the first- on why it will not be Damon but Mysaria herself that hires the B&C - apparently she survived the fire, somehow knows Larys was sent by Alicent to be assassinated and voila she gets revenge. It is not my theory, I’m just telling you why there’s already a small trend out there that says the Blacks will be absolved/whitewashed of this murder.

To the second: I have no idea myself what that explanation could be, I’m just saying that at this point after all the reasons why Daemon is portrayed as a “saint” to use butterstrover’s term, if one truly wants to provide an explanation why that murder is not good enough they will go through a process resulting in an explanation that to them will make perfect sense. It doesn’t mean it’s one that would make sense for me.

[Dragon in the North]

18 hours ago, DMC said:

That was a reference to Lost Episode 3.9 "Stranger in a Strange Land."  Which is indeed pretty objectively the nadir of Lost - especially in terms of the absurd flashback.  But Breaking Bad's "The Fly," coincidentally episode 3.10, is one of the greatest bottle episodes ever and certainly not the worst episode of the series.  How dare you Ser @RumHam..how DARE you!

It’s been even longer since I’ve seen Lost. Thanks!

[Dragon in the North]

12 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

I gave it a lower rating but let's not get crazy. 

It’s not crazy, not for me anyway. I gave The Green Council a 5/10. The rest of The House of the Dragon episodes, as well as the 73 episodes from GOT, received 6/10 or higher.

[of man and wolf]

Alicent is definitely no Cersei. Imagine what Cersei would have done to Larys in such a position. You're the queen...you want info? Torture the man.

 

Also why didn't Rhaenys just end the war then and there??? Like what?

[TeethGrinder]

9 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

It’s not crazy, not for me anyway. I gave The Green Council a 5/10. The rest of The House of the Dragon episodes, as well as the 73 episodes from GOT, received 6/10 or higher.

I can't comprehend how anything after season 6 or even most of season 6 could get over 5/10.

That "capture a wight" quest? Really?

 

[$erPounce]

I posted my thoughts in the other topic, but I think it belongs better here. I thought the episode was pretty lackluster.

• I think Alicent is a very interesting character. She's obviously whitewashed compared to the books, but she's still a very complex and layered character. One of the best written characters in the GOT show universe, in my opinion.
• I liked the conflict between Alicent and Otto, among other things, for control of Aegon. The court intrigue was very well done.
• I could sympathize very much with Aegon II at times. I do have to say that I didn't think it was a particularly good decision to involve him in the fighting pits with children. That makes him a completely immoral character in the eyes of the audience. The viewing public can rationalize or excuse a lot of bad behavior to defend certain characters (including rapists like Robert, Jaime and show-Margaery, don't ask me why), but this might be going too far for them. The showrunners should have sought a better alternative.
• It is a book-accurate portrayal of Flea Bottom, though, I must admit.
• The dialogue written was generally very good - some scenes among the best of the season. So was the cinematography.
• I was disappointed in how the death of Lyman Beesbury was handled. What on earth happened? His head was smashed to death against the table?
• I am dissatisfied with how Mysaria was written. Early on I had problems with the character, but I was hoping it was still going to work out. I think this episode is the last in the season in which she will appear, and I can't deny that she is anything but a coherent character: there is a character arc lacking. She really behaves depending on what the plot demands. For a character who belongs to the main cast, the results are very disappointing.
• I have a similar opinion about Larys Strong. Earlier I was of the opinion that I found Larys more interesting than show-Littlefinger (who I hate with passion), but now I am no longer sure. The foot fetish was handled better than some rumors before the episode led me to believe, but I found this scene quite unnecessary
• I'm not a fan of the Rhaenys scene in the Dragonpit. The reasons why are pretty obvious and have probably been mentioned in previous posts. I agree that despite that, it does provide a very good foundation for the Storming of the Dragonpit later on. Still, I would have preferred that Rhaenys managed to escape the night prior to the coronation and the episode ended with a close-up of Aegon II's conflicted feelings.

 

I note that Game of Thrones does have a pretty big influence on the decisions made for HOTD and the overall approach. Previously, it was mostly about the excessive bloodshed, the battle on the Stepstones and generally the fast pacing... Now I must also say that the ending of this episode 9 fits into that list. The showrunners of HOTD clearly used D&D's formula that the penultimate episode should end on a shocking twist or a big battle.

That particular formula for GOT (and D&D's general approach to GOT) was successful in creating hype and media attention in general... And HBO is trying to use the formula again. Likely the casual target audience will love how the Dragonpit scene ends, but I had hoped HOTD would take more risks and have more of an identity separate from its predecessor... Even though that would mean it will be less liked by casual show-watchers.

HOTD Episode 9 was the first episode for me anyway that I would put roughly on the level of GOT season 5/season 6, but I can't deny that there are quite a few positive aspects in the episode that were generally absent for GOT in that time period. For example, some main characters in HOTD get more character development and depth in one episode than characters in GOT such as Daenerys and Jon Snow in ten episodes during the last four seasons. For that reason, I still have faith in the showrunners of HOTD.

I gave the episode a 6/10.

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

I can't comprehend how anything after season 6 or even most of season 6 could get over 5/10.

That "capture a wight" quest? Really?

 

It’s very easy to comprehend if you simply accept the fact that not everyone shares your opinion. That’s how I understand why people gave The Green Council a higher score than me.

[TeethGrinder]

5 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

It’s very easy to comprehend if you simply accept the fact that not everyone shares your opinion. That’s how I understand why people gave The Green Council a higher score than me.

Ok.