Arya, the Darkheart

[The Gizzard of Oz]

@Sandy Clegg  The crying little girl is gone.  And even if she can somehow pick up that identity, it will never wash away her sins.  Which are serious and numerous.  Arya murdered those people. It doesn't matter whose face skin she wears.  It doesn't matter who she thinks she is.  It is still her doing those crimes even if her sanity has been compromised.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

even if her sanity has been compromised.

It hasn't.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Arya's first murders were committed for the purpose of self-preservation.  Later murders cannot be excused nor forgiven.  The murders of Dareon and the Old Insurance man were two of the most heinous crimes committed in all of the story.

I disagree. This is a series full of heinous acts. Ramsay flays people alive for god's sake. I don't understand how these are the two most heinous murders in the story. 

17 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Arya, like Jon, is fickle about justice.  There was no justice for Dareon.  Dareon was a victim of injustice from the very beginning and was sent to the wall at the whim of his lord. 

Neither are fickle about justice, they want justice to the extent they are willing to enact it themselves. If Dareon was a victim of injustice it was his lord to blame, not Arya. 

17 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The supposed unethical business practices of the Old Man had not and has not been established.  Arya killed him because the crime is her key to get into the school of murderers.  Church is a better description for the House of Black & White.  Cult is much better.  A cult of crackpots and evildoers who sacrifice people to the god of many faces. 

Yeah Arya killed him because it was her "assignment" It's not her best moment, certainly, but not near the most heinouse murder in the story. 

17 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Catelyn is now Stoneheart.  A walking zombie without mercy or pity.  Jon will come back as the Coldheart, another zombie who will show no pity and no mercy to those who will stand between he and Arya.  Arya is Darkheart, which is a subtle difference.  Darkheart is worse.  Arya will show no mercy but dark also means evil.  Arya is insane to be sure.  But being insane does not mean she is without guilt. 

Oh come now, she isn't the slightest bit insane. She is troubled for sure. She has experienced quite a bit of trauma at quite a young age. What evidence do you have to suggest she is insane? 

17 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Arya will commit a mass murder which will result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.  I have seen posted predictions of her methodology of choice.  I do not think Arya will employ poison.  She is too small to attack a crowd directly.  Arya will use Wildfire to commit mass murder.  It is impossible for Arya to ever be normal again.  The future for her is very, very dark.  And she will become the darkest, most evil, of the main characters. 

LOL Idk what to even say about that. Arya is pretty calculated in her revenge. I don't see her attacking a mob of innocent people. Maybe a mob of Freys. 

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. This is a series full of heinous acts. Ramsay flays people alive for god's sake. I don't understand how these are the two most heinous murders in the story. 

The Dareon one is no good but it is relatively tame compared to other murders we see. He likely died quickly. That still doesn't mean it couldn't be considered heinous though, in my opinion, just that it wouldn't be the most heinous.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If Dareon was a victim of injustice it was his lord to blame, not Arya. 

I think Arya's killing of him could also be considered unjust because she had no legal authority to kill him, in my view.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh come now, she isn't the slightest bit insane.

I get the impression that these people either don't know what insane means, or do know but don't care and are just using it to insult characters they don't like.

The irony is that if Arya were really insane, then she could have an excuse for the murders.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Dareon one is no good but it is relatively tame compared to other murders we see. He likely died quickly. That still doesn't mean it couldn't be considered heinous though, in my opinion, just that it wouldn't be the most heinous

Oh, I agree. All murder is heinous, I just cannot call it one of the most heinous. 

 

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think Arya's killing of him could also be considered unjust because she had no legal authority to kill him, in my view.

Yeah, she doesn't have any legal authority. His life is forfeit for desertion either way but, I agree, it is not up to her to enact the sentence. 

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I get the impression that these people either don't know what insane means, or do know but don't care and are just using it to insult characters they don't like.

The irony is that if Arya were really insane, then she could have an excuse for the murders.

haha! Yes! Exactly. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, she doesn't have any legal authority. His life is forfeit for desertion either way but, I agree, it is not up to her to enact the sentence. 

A further issue I was considering was the fact that he was in Braavos. I am not sure whether the laws of Westeros and the Watch would have any bearing in Braavos, even if someone 'allowed' to execute Dareon had killed him, it may have been out of their jurisdiction.

4 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Oh, I agree. All murder is heinous, I just cannot call it one of the most heinous. 

It is a bit silly I think. You have people being starved to death to the point that they were forced to eat their own fingers, people being flayed and raped to death, people being eaten alive, people being crucified and left in crow cages, people being burned alive. Dareon's death was one of the cleaner deaths in the series.

[Darth Sidious]

20 hours ago, Kierria said:

Arya is one of the more frightening people in song of ice and fire.  She is literally as volatile as wildfire.  She has the murderous skills of the faceless men, the fierceness and vengefulness of the wolf's blood, and top that with mental instability.  The faceless men will never be able to control her.  She will moonlight and murder more people.  Arya answers to nobody but herself and that is another danger.  She has lost her morality.  

The Faceless Men. They could send one of theirs to take Arya out of the game. But what if they don’t care if Arya is unhinged as long as she delivers to their gods by way of mass murder.  Deaths are what they harvest.  

Edited November 9, 2022 by Darth Sidious

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

A further issue I was considering was the fact that he was in Braavos. I am not sure whether the laws of Westeros and the Watch would have any bearing in Braavos, even if someone 'allowed' to execute Dareon had killed him, it may have been out of their jurisdiction.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that either. He was there on orders from the watch but we haven't gotten much info in regard to extradition practices in westeros, that I'm aware of. 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is a bit silly I think. You have people being starved to death to the point that they were forced to eat their own fingers, people being flayed and raped to death, people being eaten alive, people being crucified and left in crow cages, people being burned alive. Dareon's death was one of the cleaner deaths in the series.

Yes, my point exactly. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

20 hours ago, Kierria said:

Arya is one of the more frightening people in song of ice and fire.  She is literally as volatile as wildfire.  She has the murderous skills of the faceless men, the fierceness and vengefulness of the wolf's blood, and top that with mental instability.  The faceless men will never be able to control her.  She will moonlight and murder more people.  Arya answers to nobody but herself and that is another danger.  She has lost her morality.  

She doesn't have any skills of the FM yet. Last we left her she was blind, remember? Where is the evidence of her mental illness or that she has lost her morality? 

[Wm Portnoy]

It's not looking good if you want Arya to be a protagonists.  I say she was never that.  But her actions will be rewarding to the folks who like the Starks.  They will get their revenge but at the expense of Arya's life and her soul.  

[Wm Portnoy]

You ( @H Wadsworth Longfellow )woke up Arya's defense lawyers.  It is a futile exercise to defend to Arya though.  They can try to play down her crimes and make them seem trivial but Arya is a villain.  She is guilty of multiple murders.  

Edited November 9, 2022 by Wm Portnoy

[Ring3r]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The murders of Dareon and the Old Insurance man were two of the most heinous crimes committed in all of the story.

 

I don't think we read the same series......

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Arya's defense lawyers.  It is a futile exercise to defend to Arya though.  They can try to play down her crimes and make them seem trivial but Arya is a villain.  She is guilty of multiple murders.  

That's not what people have been doing. What they have been doing is pointing out that Arya's murders are not the worst in the series, and that Arya is not insane. No one is trying to excuse Arya, or claim she's innocent.

But if Arya were for some reason being tried today, there would actually be quite a lot you could present to try and get her a less severe punishment. Her age, the fact that she's being incited/coerced/encouraged to carry out the murders, the fact that she's been separated from her loving family and is now in the company of a group of criminals, that she's seen some awful things which could give rise to PTSD, and so on.

Also, you can't have your cake and eat it. Arya is not insane, but if she were, it wouldn't be her fault that she committed the murders. So you can't have it both ways. You can't go on about how evil Arya is a mass murderer, has willingly and heinously murdered multiple innocents and takes sick joy in killing people using the sophisticated methods the Faceless Men have taught her, and also claim she's insane. If she is insane, she would be acquitted. So I suggest you pick one insult and stick to it. Since it is a fact that Arya isn't insane, I suggest you go with the 'Arya the Mass Murderer' idea, despite the fact that there's little evidence to back it up.

[Mourning Star]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Arya's first murders were committed for the purpose of self-preservation.  Later murders cannot be excused nor forgiven.  The murders of Dareon and the Old Insurance man were two of the most heinous crimes committed in all of the story.

How can you possibly think this? Are we reading the same series? In a series full of heinous crimes how do these even compare? People starved till they eat themselves, babies heads smashed into walls, son strangled trying to save his slow cooked dad, being burned alive, flayed, etc.

I’ll assume this is just exaggeration and move on…

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Arya, like Jon, is fickle about justice. 

Justice isn’t easy and not always clear.

The very question of what justice is, is one of the big themes explored by the series.

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

There was no justice for Dareon.

Maybe, I think his case is an interesting one, I’ll give you that.

After all, the series starts with a runaway brother of the Watch being executed by Ned in the name of Justice.  

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

  Dareon was a victim of injustice from the very beginning and was sent to the wall at the whim of his lord. 

If Daeron is to be believed, we only get his side of the story and while it’s entirely possible he was telling the truth, we don’t know that. It seems hypocritical to accept that he was innocent while at the same time suggesting that what we are told about the old man is false.

That said, I’m inclined to agree that killing him seemed morally wrong, even if it’s “legal” to kill a Night’s Watchman who abandoned his oath.

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The supposed unethical business practices of the Old Man had not and has not been established.  Arya killed him because the crime is her key to get into the school of murderers.  Church is a better description for the House of Black & White.  Cult is much better.  A cult of crackpots and evildoers who sacrifice people to the god of many faces.

I am inclined to agree that Faceless Murderers are not a morally upstanding organization. As you said, the crimes of the old man are unclear. It is also unclear what the motives or justifications of the Faceless Men are. However, it does seem to me that they follow some sort of code, and I’m hopeful we learn more in the future.

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Catelyn is now Stoneheart.  A walking zombie without mercy or pity.  Jon will come back as the Coldheart, another zombie who will show no pity and no mercy to those who will stand between he and Arya.
 

Stoneheart is a thing, not at all in agreement that this is Jon’s fate.

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Arya is Darkheart, which is a subtle difference.  Darkheart is worse.  Arya will show no mercy but dark also means evil.  Arya is insane to be sure.  But being insane does not mean she is without guilt.

Is it worse? I’m not sure I agree with the assessment or judgement at all.

Mercy is never a mistake… what is mercy? Another big question I think see explored by the series.

Dark does not mean evil.

This is some Melisandre logic. I’m with Davos on this, full of doubt.

Highheart is referring to heart trees.

Heart trees (Weirwoods) turn to stone when they die, Stoneheart is dead.

He could almost smell the place, earthy and brooding, the smell of centuries, and he remembered how dark the wood had been even by day. That wood was Winterfell. It was the north.

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The Ghost of High Heart associates the tragic past of Summerhall to present day Arya Stark.  Wildfire was involved at Summerhall.  The woman saw an accurate vision of Arya's dark future.  Arya has a lot of blood on her hands.  She will soon be covered in many layers of blood.  Arya will commit a mass murder which will result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.  I have seen posted predictions of her methodology of choice.  I do not think Arya will employ poison.  She is too small to attack a crowd directly.  Arya will use Wildfire to commit mass murder.  It is impossible for Arya to ever be normal again.  The future for her is very, very dark.  And she will become the darkest, most evil, of the main characters. 

This seems like a wild leap without coherent logic.

When I read the Ghost of Highheart’s words it seems she is talking about Arya’s grief, not grief she will cause.

[Brother Seamus]

she's obviously not insane, in the normal sense of the word. it looks to me that's really going on here is you're all talking past each other based on an implied disagreement on what insane means. why anyone would want to waste time on a fan site essentially debating vocabulary, without really acknowledging that's what you're doing, is a mystery.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, Brother Seamus said:

an implied disagreement on what insane means.

Arya is objectively not insane though. There is an accepted definition of the word by medical and legal professionals. Claiming Arya is insane is objectively wrong, based on what the text shows us. If you have a different definition of insane then it isn't really the same thing anymore...

If people are not using it in a medical or legal sense then I think they should clarify. Using the word 'insane' all the time if you don't really mean it is detrimental.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Craving Peaches

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/9/2022 at 6:16 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

It's not looking good if you want Arya to be a protagonists.  I say she was never that.  But her actions will be rewarding to the folks who like the Starks.  They will get their revenge but at the expense of Arya's life and her soul.  

I’ll be criticizing Arya. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

she's obviously not insane, in the normal sense of the word. it looks to me that's really going on here is you're all talking past each other based on an implied disagreement on what insane means. why anyone would want to waste time on a fan site essentially debating vocabulary, without really acknowledging that's what you're doing, is a mystery.

We've talked about everything else. Everything about this series has been dissected & redissected. We are bored.. 

[Rondo]

Sam smelled fish on Arya.  The Ghost of High Heart smelled blood,  A large amount of blood.  Arya will murder a lot of people and Martin will amp the revulsion each time as the killings become more vicious.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Sam smelled fish on Arya.  The Ghost of High Heart smelled blood,  A large amount of blood.  Arya will murder a lot of people and Martin will amp the revulsion each time as the killings become more vicious.  

Would you please explain to me how the two things are related? Why Sam smelling fish in Arya is an indication of Arya murdering a bunch of people? 

 

Also, I don't recall Sam ever meeting Arya.