What prevents Jaime from having a proper redemption arc ?

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sure.  There is more than enough space to redeem Jaime.  But something's got to give.  Someone else is going to have to be disappointed with the redemption of his own particular favorite villain, and/or the adequate resolution of many other hanging plot threads.

A doorstopper does not contain unlimited space, especially the way GRRM writes.  If it did, this would have been a trilogy of non-doorstoppers.

Book 3 was a doorstopper.  But it only divided its action among 10 POVs, not counting a Cressen one-off, and a Merritt one-off, and not counting Theon who failed to appear despite (as it turned out) not actually being dead.  Already, plot development was starting to drag a bit.  GRRM at least managed to kill off Catelyn.  She didn't exactly stay dead, but at least she failed to return as her own POV.

 

I think you mean Chett; Cressen was in Book 2.

[Gilbert Green]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think you mean Chett; Cressen was in Book 2.

Yes, you are right.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

So he's working for his family's illegitimate regime?  What, you expect a Lannister to abandon a regime run by Lannisters?  It's not that kind of fantasy.

Not that kind of redemption either.

 

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

They're gone, though I can see him joining them when they reappear. 

Why would he?

 

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Lannisters are the only game in town for now, and he is doing what he can to mitigate damage.

I fail to see how he is mitigating the damage but the Lannister are the only faction invested on keeping him alive and in a position of power.

 

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

He resolved the siege of Riverrun peacefully.

By threatening an unborn baby. And by breaking his oath to Cat.

Personally I don't think he's capable of redemption, he's way too narcissistic for that, it makes him feel good about himself but that's about it.

There's also the fact that he's going to UnCat unaware and there's no logical reason for him to survive the encounter.

 

 

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Not that kind of redemption either.

 

Why would he?

 

I fail to see how he is mitigating the damage but the Lannister are the only faction invested on keeping him alive and in a position of power.

 

By threatening an unborn baby. And by breaking his oath to Cat.

 

 

IIRC, he comments internally about never making a threat, unless you’re prepared to carry it out.

The child would have died, and Edmure would have been confined to an oubliette, had he not given in.

[Corvo the Crow]

Being a not so competent(he’s not entirely incompetent) idiot whose only  qualities are(well were) being from an ancient house and a very skilled swordsman, both of which made him quite arrogant and after being kingslayer, he was radicalized.

It doesn’t help being written as the bad guy in the original draft either.

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Being a not so competent(he’s not entirely incompetent) idiot whose only  qualities are(well were) being from an ancient house and a very skilled swordsman, both of which made him quite arrogant and after being kingslayer, he was radicalized.

It doesn’t help being written as the bad guy in the original draft either.

Not to mention both Jamie and his father are the closest things we have to real villains in the first novel.

[sifth]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Not that kind of redemption either.

 

Why would he?

 

I fail to see how he is mitigating the damage but the Lannister are the only faction invested on keeping him alive and in a position of power.

 

By threatening an unborn baby. And by breaking his oath to Cat.

Personally I don't think he's capable of redemption, he's way too narcissistic for that, it makes him feel good about himself but that's about it.

There's also the fact that he's going to UnCat unaware and there's no logical reason for him to survive the encounter.

 

 

He didn't break his oath to Cat. He never took up arms against a member of House Stark or Tully. The whole thing was clearly a bluff and it worked.

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

He didn't break his oath to Cat. He never took up arms against a member of House Stark or Tully.

He participated in the siege of Riverrun, he threatened Edmure-s baby and he sent men to arrest or kill Brynden Tully. 

He very much broke his oath to Cat. It is embarassing to go for technicalities, which he did break anyway but whatever.

 

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

The whole thing was clearly a bluff and it worked.

Clearly? Why i wonder.

Is it because Jaime has proven himself incapable of killing children?

Or because he firmly believes on the idea of carrying out threats and he makes himself vulnerable by saying it in front of his army.

Or maybe because Jaime keeps insisting in that delusion in which he iis Tywin's "real son"?

 

Quote

“Ser Edmure is on his way to Casterly Rock as my captive. His wife will remain at  the Twins until their child is born. Then she and the babe will join him. So long as he does not attempt escape or plot rebellion, Edmure will live a long life.” “Long and bitter. A life without honor. Until his dying day, men will say he was afraid to fight.” Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt.

I do find it weird that while Jaime is proud of channeling his inner Tywin, fans tend to dismiss it and call it a bluff, perhaps it is because it throws a wrench in his much talked about redemption.

But then again... What if his path is not that of redemption? But of an arrogant who tries to do the good for a while before falling to his old ways? Granted, without hand he'd never be the Jaime he was but... He would have killed the baby.

 

[EggBlue]

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

If his story isn't about redemption, then what is it about?

Enter: "what is the point of Jaimie?" thread after Winds of Winter release. lol.

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

He participated in the siege of Riverrun, he threatened Edmure-s baby and he sent men to arrest or kill Brynden Tully. 

He very much broke his oath to Cat. It is embarassing to go for technicalities, which he did break anyway but whatever.

 

Clearly? Why i wonder.

Is it because Jaime has proven himself incapable of killing children?

Or because he firmly believes on the idea of carrying out threats and he makes himself vulnerable by saying it in front of his army.

Or maybe because Jaime keeps insisting in that delusion in which he iis Tywin's "real son"?

 

I do find it weird that while Jaime is proud of channeling his inner Tywin, fans tend to dismiss it and call it a bluff, perhaps it is because it throws a wrench in his much talked about redemption.

But then again... What if his path is not that of redemption? But of an arrogant who tries to do the good for a while before falling to his old ways? Granted, without hand he'd never be the Jaime he was but... He would have killed the baby.

 

Listen, the moment, Jamie actually takes up arms and hurts a Stark or Tully, come talk to me. All you have is Jamie saying empty words, as your argument and one of the main quotes from this series is "words are wind".

Still I suppose your post is better than the usual "Jon Snow is the worst person to ever live" stuff, we usually see around these parts.

[EggBlue]

29 minutes ago, sifth said:

He didn't break his oath to Cat. He never took up arms against a member of House Stark or Tully. The whole thing was clearly a bluff and it worked.

well , that's his own reasoning in the chapter and that's just playing with the words really . if he asks an idealist like Brienne of Tarth , she would tell him that oaths and vows are more than the word by word sentences . "not taking up arms against Tullys and Starks"  means not confronting Tullys and Starks and not damaging them in any shape or form , whether it's threats , open war or siege . 

[frenin]

38 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Enter: "what is the point of Jaimie?" thread after Winds of Winter release. lol.

Dying by UnCat hands.

Satisfying as hell.

32 minutes ago, sifth said:

Listen, the moment, Jamie actually takes up arms and hurts a Stark or Tully, come talk to me. All you have is Jamie saying empty words, as your argument and one of the main quotes from this series is "words are wind".

He's never going to do that, basically because he'd die fast.

He does send people to kill Tullys tho.

And Jaime's own argument is that for a battle commander, words cannot be wind because it impacts how your enemies and your men see you.

[Dofs]

17 hours ago, SeanF said:

IIRC, he comments internally about never making a threat, unless you’re prepared to carry it out.

The child would have died, and Edmure would have been confined to an oubliette, had he not given in.

No, he tells the bit about never making an idle threat to a Frey, in front of Edmure. Jaime was intimidating Edmure, when he said that.

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, sifth said:

Listen, the moment, Jamie actually takes up arms and hurts a Stark or Tully, come talk to me. All you have is Jamie saying empty words, as your argument and one of the main quotes from this series is "words are wind".

Still I suppose your post is better than the usual "Jon Snow is the worst person to ever live" stuff, we usually see around these parts.

A siege is a form of battle, is it not?

[sifth]

Just now, SeanF said:

A siege is a form of battle, is it not?

A bloodless one isn't.

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Dofs said:

No, he tells the bit about never making an idle threat to a Frey, in front of Edmure. Jaime was intimidating Edmure, when he said that.

In front of Edmure and in front of his army.  Everyone is calling what's his name Frey a fool for not taking Edmure's life. 

In fact Jaime, still upset about Genna's words, thinks that well obviously Edmure should he afraid of him. He is Tywin's som at the end of the day. Tywin, the one who totally didn't kill children.

Jaime himself thinks he's going to do it... Yet his fans don't ofc. Because Jaime would never kill children.

 

5 hours ago, sifth said:

A bloodless one isn't.

There's little bloodless about a siege. 

But maybe the men at arms he sent after Brynden were disarmed too. You'll never know. Jaime's so honorable.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because Jaime would never kill children.

Why do people think this when he pushed Bran out a window, presumably with the intent to kill him so he didn't reveal Jaime's dirty little secret, and it was only by luck that Bran didn't die?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why do people think this when he pushed Bran out a window, presumably with the intent to kill him so he didn't reveal Jaime's dirty little secret, and it was only by luck that Bran didn't die?

Yes, and he also intended to kill or at least maim Arya after she and Nymeria fought back against Joffrey. 

Even tough he's nothing compared to his father and sister in this area, Jaime still has to be called on this bullshit and to face the consequences of his actions with Bran.

[Dofs]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

In front of Edmure and in front of his army.

In front of Edmure, Ryman Frey and Edwyn Frey, Ilyn Payne, Strongboar, and 'Queen of Whores'. Not in front of his army.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Everyone is calling what's his name Frey a fool for not taking Edmure's life. 

So what

6 hours ago, frenin said:

In fact Jaime, still upset about Genna's words, thinks that well obviously Edmure should he afraid of him

No, he didn't want to threaten Edmure at all and hoped Edmure would agree on Jaime's first proposal.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

He is Tywin's som at the end of the day. Tywin, the one who totally didn't kill children.

The threat itself was Tywin-style. The threat that was a low blow and for Jaime a shitty thing to do. This is where he compares himself with Tywin.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime himself thinks he's going to do it..

Literally never happened.

 

 

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, Dofs said:

In front of Edmure, Ryman Frey and Edwyn Frey, Ilyn Payne, Strongboar, and 'Queen of Whores'. Not in front of his army.

So what

No, he didn't want to threaten Edmure at all and hoped Edmure would agree on Jaime's first proposal.

The threat itself was Tywin-style. The threat that was a low blow and for Jaime a shitty thing to do. This is where he compares himself with Tywin.

Literally never happened.

 

 

What if Edmure said no?

Do you think Jaime would have said “Okay, you win.”