"Only 500 pages to go" for Winds of Winter

[Kyll.Ing.]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:36 PM, butterweedstrover said:

Fundamentally things can’t change even if he wanted them to. 

Dany has to invade Westeros or else her plot will serve no purpose. Arya has to return and take revenge or else her training arc would be pointless. Bran has to become king or else the magical powers will become irrelevant. And Sansa has to rule Winterfell or else her political accumulation would be a dead end. 

Not really, I think.

Dany's story can be transformed into more of a parable on how one doesn't always have to follow one's "destiny". Daenerys has the ancestry going for her, she has built an army and is gaining experience as a ruler ... but she has literally never been in Westeros (knowingly, at least - lemon trees and all that). I wouldn't think any less of her story if she decided against invading Westeros, since Essos is where she has spent her life, where she has built a kingdom, and where the public adores her. 

Bran doesn't have to be king for his powers to be relevant. As long as he aids the battle against the Others - or help seal them away or something like that - his training would have had a purpose. He could basically end up as a sort of active defense mechanism for the realm, just as important as any king in a way, while someone else does the actual kingship.

Sansa could end up ruling anywhere. As long as it's somewhere big and important it'd still be a worthy payoff. Winterfell is preferable, true, but she could also end up with Casterly Rock or Highgarden or a Free City or whatever and found her own house there.

Arya is probably the one whose story is the most set down a specific path, but the others could plausibly end up with multiple outcomes that would all be a fitting end to their arc. 

[Morte]

5 hours ago, Aelwen said:

I wonder why the author thinks that a new immortal king is the best fate for Bran and Westeros. Eternal absolute monarchy with no chance for evolving? A creature with no feelings, no passions and no desires except for watching their subjects?

Because, if this is really GRRMs ending, he simply did not understand Dune. Not one little bit of it

2 minutes ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

Not really, I think.

Dany's story can be transformed into more of a parable on how one doesn't always have to follow one's "destiny". Daenerys has the ancestry going for her, she has built an army and is gaining experience as a ruler ... but she has literally never been in Westeros (knowingly, at least - lemon trees and all that). I wouldn't think any less of her story if she decided against invading Westeros, since Essos is where she has spent her life, where she has built a kingdom, and where the public adores her. 

Bran doesn't have to be king for his powers to be relevant. As long as he aids the battle against the Others - or help seal them away or something like that - his training would have had a purpose. He could basically end up as a sort of active defense mechanism for the realm, just as important as any king in a way, while someone else does the actual kingship.

Sansa could end up ruling anywhere. As long as it's somewhere big and important it'd still be a worthy payoff. Winterfell is preferable, true, but she could also end up with Casterly Rock or Highgarden or a Free City or whatever and found her own house there.

Arya is probably the one whose story is the most set down a specific path, but the others could plausibly end up with multiple outcomes that would all be a fitting end to their arc. 

This.

I still interpret the things, one could (maybe) take from the show as happening in the books as follows:

- Dany being taken away by Drogon = she does indeed leave at the end, realising that Westeros isn't her home, Essos is. So after helping with the long night she and her armies go back home.

- Jon going into the wild = he doesn't take any crown, because he is the Lord Commander of the Night Watch, and he has an institution to rebuild into something useful and functional, and has responsibilities toward the Wildlings as well.

- Bran becomes a Greenseer, so he will most likely end up connected to the trees, but because of his position as the first Greenseer known again to the realm since a very long time, he will be spiritual guide and magical adviser, his throne will be the trees

- Sansa will end up as Lady of Winterfell or Lady of the Earie, imho

Who will sit the Iron Throne in the end? Well, how about Aegon? Or Shireen? Or Shireen and Aegon?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, Morte said:

Because, if this is really GRRMs ending, he simply did not understand Dune. Not one little bit of it.

Although GRRM could have his own ideas for Bran that were't inspired by Dune. 

[Aelwen]

With Bran becoming a king, Westeros will never become a democracy or anything resembling it. 

Do you think that absolute power will not corrupt him because of his magic abilities? 

It is an ending fitting the grimdark story but it reminds me of Orwell 1984... When the Big Brother wins and Winston loves him.

In the ASOAIF the main characters decide to become vassals of the magical Big Brother. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe, but wouldn’t he have had twenty years to think it over by then? If he had a better idea, I’m sure he would have gone with that.

Perhaps, neither idea makes much sense, in terms of an “bittersweet” ending, and that is the heart of the problem, in terms of finishing.

King Bran makes no sense, given the requirements of medieval kingship.  Mad Dany just sounds like holding her to a different standard to the male leaders in the tale.

Were the story written by @Joe AbercrombieI could see all the elements from the show’s endgame working out much better.  Idealists get used and betrayed.  Clever cynics take control.  The survivors all finish up as worse people than they started.

Perhaps, Martin can’t decide whether or not this is a grimdark tale.

Edited May 4, 2023 by SeanF

[Aelwen]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

King Bran makes no sense, given the requirements of medieval kingship.  Mad Dany just sounds like holding her to a different standard to the male leaders in the tale.

Westeros is inspired by France monarchy with no female rulers? Though the difference is that France monarchy lasted 800 years and Westeros.. several thousands with no queens? 

King Bran in the book will have to rule through another person eventually.

I can  agree with Three Eyed Raven not having usual flesh desires but he had to care about his safety. So it will be like some of... modern leaders? Surrounded by hundreds of knights, sitting in some secluded place and preventing any attempts to overthrow him?

I seriously doubt that GRRM intends to make Westeros an ideal place even after the war, so it is going to be that shitty dystopian setting but with a super magical ruler? 

 

I think we miss something here, some information to access the story.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

King Bran makes no sense, given the requirements of medieval kingship.

I mean, Bran definitely makes up for it by being an omniscient wizard.

[Aelwen]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, Bran definitely makes up for it by being an omniscient wizard.

A whole country ruled by that wizard. Will he stop there or decide to invade some other country? Essos? What can stop him from imperial ambitions? 

I can agree with such ending, I just don't understand the thematic message here. George maybe thinks such wizard would be ideal, and I doubt it. 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Aelwen

[SeanF]

Just now, Aelwen said:

A whole country ruled by that wizard. Will he stop there or decide to invade some other country? Essos? What can stop him from imperial ambitions? 

I can agree with such ending, I just don't understand the thematic message here. 

In Abercrombie-land, it makes perfect sense.  Decent people finish up dead, fugitives, broken shells, ciphers.   Bad, but clever, people triumph.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

I just don't understand the thematic message here. 

"Being an omniscient wizard has its' perks"?

[Cas Stark]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps, neither idea makes much sense, in terms of an “bittersweet” ending, and that is the heart of the problem, in terms of finishing.

King Bran makes no sense, given the requirements of medieval kingship.  Mad Dany just sounds like holding her to a different standard to the male leaders in the tale.

Were the story written by @Joe AbercrombieI could see all the elements from the show’s endgame working out much better.  Idealists get used and betrayed.  Clever cynics take control.  The survivors all finish up as worse people than they started.

Perhaps, Martin can’t decide whether or not this is a grimdark tale.

I don't mind mad Dany, given the many traumas+her genetic history, it is remarkable she hasn't always been crazy.  I've not liked how so many people are all 'yaass queen' when she kills random people because she has the mads or the sads.  I expect that GRRM can do that tragic arc justice, to the character and the audience.

King Bran the Undying...that's going to be hard to square, especially if the end of Others means the seasons go back to Earth normal, maybe those of us that thought the resolution would mean the end/diminishment of magic were wrong.  I don't know.  It does feel like Dune in a different costume.

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't mind mad Dany, given the many traumas+her genetic history, it is remarkable she hasn't always been crazy.  I've not liked how so many people are all 'yaass queen' when she kills random people because she has the mads or the sads.  I expect that GRRM can do that tragic arc justice, to the character and the audience.

King Bran the Undying...that's going to be hard to square, especially if the end of Others means the seasons go back to Earth normal, maybe those of us that thought the resolution would mean the end/diminishment of magic were wrong.  I don't know.  It does feel like Dune in a different costume.

Even so, I think it will be difficult to persuade readers that Master Kraznys, the Yellow Whale, and Xaro Xhoan Doxas were on the side of right all along.  Or even that there was moral equivalence between those supporting and opposing slavery (which I think was the point of Tyrion's speech to Jon in the show).

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Even so, I think it will be difficult to persuade readers that Master Kraznys, the Yellow Whale, and Xaro Xhoan Doxas were on the side of right all along.  Or even that there was moral equivalence between those supporting and opposing slavery (which I think was the point of Tyrion's speech to Jon in the show).

That wasn't the message I got from Tyrion's, admittedly amateurish speech.  It was more like....you start off with actual, terrible people, slavers, or people who purposely harmed you, MMD, and you take just revenge....but once you are on the road of empowing yourself to take that savage revenge based on your own personal view of things...you may end up savaging not the evil bad slaver killer guys, but others who just don't agree w/you or want to be ruled by you.

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That wasn't the message I got from Tyrion's, admittedly amateurish speech.

I've said this before, but I still wonder whether that speech came from GRRM or if it was a D&D invention.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps, neither idea makes much sense, in terms of an “bittersweet” ending, and that is the heart of the problem, in terms of finishing.

King Bran makes no sense, given the requirements of medieval kingship.  Mad Dany just sounds like holding her to a different standard to the male leaders in the tale.

Were the story written by @Joe AbercrombieI could see all the elements from the show’s endgame working out much better.  Idealists get used and betrayed.  Clever cynics take control.  The survivors all finish up as worse people than they started.

Perhaps, Martin can’t decide whether or not this is a grimdark tale.

It’s possible that Dany doesn’t go “mad,” but that that’s the way she’s remembered (we’re already seeing the groundwork for that in the Quentyn and Arianne chapters). It’s also possible that all of the dragon dreams/mystical encounters start taking their toll. Quaithe may think she’s helping Dany, but she’s also making her very paranoid. Part of the reason why she spurns Quentyn is because Quaithe warned her not to trust him (or anyone, really).

[The Bard of Banefort]

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've said this before, but I still wonder whether that speech came from GRRM or if it was a D&D invention.

To me, the speech was them trying to figure out why this character they found so boring would end up King. I don’t think they ever got there.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I've said this before, but I still wonder whether that speech came from GRRM or if it was a D&D invention.

I think it was a DD invention, trying to explain Dany's character arc in a couple of minutes, because they were sick of running GOT and wanted 'out'.  Instead of seeing that tragic fall in the show, they gave a condensed 'here is how you should think about this' version via Tyrion's speech.  I do believe the gist of it and of Dany's downfall came from GRRM.  But, will Tyrion ever give such a clunky speech in the books that aren't getting written. No.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

To me, the speech was them trying to figure out why this character they found so boring would end up King. I don’t think they ever got there.

That being said, GRRM does mention reading and stories a lot in the series. Plus, Bran is almost always associated with Old Nan's stories, so it's possible that it came from George.

[sifth]

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Part of the reason why she spurns Quentyn is because Quaithe warned her not to trust him (or anyone, really).

Which doesn't make sense. Quentyn is one of the nicest guys in the series. I often wonder if Quaithe is a villain; it is starting to seem that way.

[Aelwen]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s possible that Dany doesn’t go “mad,”

Dany will never get mad if the book is never written. 

And I think it is the most probable variant.