Something fun where no one goes insane

[Alester Florent]

On 8/4/2023 at 5:44 PM, Gilbert Green said:

Yes, and GRRM has been busy setting them up.  No such thing as too many fake-outs.

I disagree entirely. Too many fake-outs, and the number required for "too many" is not that high, and the reader quickly realises that what they're reading from page to page has no importance or meaning, and can be revoked at the drop of a hat by the author going "fooled you!" The occasional super-fan might enjoy going back and raking over the coals to find all the clues, but it shows a degree of contempt for your readership that most readers don't like, drains off suspense and therefore drama, and is (at least in my somewhat informed and not at all humble opinion) straight-up bad storytelling.

For an example of how to do this kind of thing badly, take a look at The Rings of Power (not a book, but same principle). By getting the balance wrong with the feed of information to the audience, prioritising guessing-games and cliffhangers over consistent narrative, and on occasion just straightforwardly lying to them (take another look at that scene when the "humans" attack the inn in the village!) the writers robbed the whole thing of its credibility and ultimately its investment. I wanted to like it, and did defend the first couple of episodes, but by the end was thoroughly sick of the whole thing. I'd hate for the same to happen to ASoIaF.

[Gilbert Green]

11 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I disagree entirely. Too many fake-outs, and the number required for "too many" is not that high, and the reader quickly realises that what they're reading from page to page has no importance or meaning, and can be revoked at the drop of a hat by the author going "fooled you!" The occasional super-fan might enjoy going back and raking over the coals to find all the clues, but it shows a degree of contempt for your readership that most readers don't like, drains off suspense and therefore drama, and is (at least in my somewhat informed and not at all humble opinion) straight-up bad storytelling.

All of us are free to dislike what he writes when he writes it. 

But I, for one, will not be basing my like or dislike on the number of fake-outs.  Nor, I think, will anyone who has not spent too much time waiting between books, investing too much energy hating on particular hated theories.

But then again, I have never considered AOIAF to be super-serious literature.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Northern Sword]

Predictions 

1. Jamie survives

2. Vic becomes a Dragon Queen convert despite blowing the horn

3. Jon isn't dead

4. Stannis wins the Battle of Ice, but his army is on thin ice.  

5. Theon is sacrificed 

Hopes

1. Find out what the hell Howland Reed has been doing

2. Great Northern Conspiracy is unveiled to the detriment of the Bolton's

3. Arya makes it back to Westeros 

4. The Grave Digger emerges 

5. Old Man Barristan survives 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

4. Stannis wins the Battle of Ice, but his army is on thin ice.  

I thought that was the Freys!
 

Like all of your predictions but disagree w/ # 5. 

[Northern Sword]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Like all of your predictions but disagree w/ # 5. 

Fair, I actually like Theon's arc, but he has crimes to pay for. And that tree is thirsty. + the Bran POV of that would be great.

 

[kissdbyfire]

48 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Fair, I actually like Theon's arc, but he has crimes to pay for. And that tree is thirsty. + the Bran POV of that would be great.

 

Indeed. But a blood sacrifice won't be needed here, offering yourself up as a willing vessel will suffice.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Northern Sword]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. But a blood sacrifice won't be needed here, offering yourself up as a willing vessel will suficiente.

 

Wait.. What ? Willing vessel for what exactly ? if not for a sacrifice.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Wait.. What ? Willing vessel for what exactly ? if not for a sacrifice.

You can find it here if you're interested:

https://forthehearttree.wordpress.com/2023/01/05/theon-and-the-heart-tree/

[Northern Sword]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You can find it here if you're interested:

https://forthehearttree.wordpress.com/2023/01/05/theon-and-the-heart-tree/

Well, that does make sense. Hmmm. may have to change # 5 on my list.  

[Aebram]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:39 PM, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

2. Shireen doesn’t burn.

She will, but only after she dies from grayscale.

Also, I'll predict that one of the "odd couple" relationships, which have only been hinted at so far, will blossom romantically, or at least grow significantly on the page. I'm referring to Jaime/Brienne, Sansa/Hound, or Jon/Val ... tinfoil though they may seem to some.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Aebram said:

She will, but only after she dies from grayscale.

Also, I'll predict that one of the "odd couple" relationships, which have only been hinted at so far, will blossom romantically, or at least grow significantly on the page. I'm referring to Jaime/Brienne, Sansa/Hound, or Jon/Val ... tinfoil though they may seem to some.

I can see Jon/Val. Jaime/Brienne was something I never got from the books, and the show iteration felt forced because the hacks writing it at that point couldn't think of another way to process that relationship except romantically.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I can see Jon/Val. Jaime/Brienne was something I never got from the books, and the show iteration felt forced because the hacks writing it at that point couldn't think of another way to process that relationship except romantically.

Lol, they both find each other physically attractive (although Jaime is suprised he does). Jaime literally jumps into a pit to save her like a hero from a story....and they both think about each other a lot. Jaime becomes protective of her and starts treating her with respect (something he does to almost no one else) and Brienne is clearly (like no question)having a crush on Jaime. there are a LOT of hints. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Northern Sword]

4 hours ago, Aebram said:

Also, I'll predict that one of the "odd couple" relationships, which have only been hinted at so far, will blossom romantically, or at least grow significantly on the page. I'm referring to Jaime/Brienne, Sansa/Hound, or Jon/Val ... tinfoil though they may seem to some.

Count me in on all three under hopes @Aebram. The odds are against them all, but still.

Jon/Val - seems a natural fit in a few ways. Attraction is there already, and they may have a similar path going forward. Being dead may not help though... 

Jamie/Brienne - to begin with would have seemed ridiculous, but I completely changed my mind. Jamie changed once she was around for a bit. Its like she led by example. Her belief in him changed him, and put him on an honorable path. @Lord of Raventree Hall yes, he jumped in a bear pit surrounded by enemies to save her. Not a small gesture.

Sansa/Sandor *not the hound. Sansa who wanted the perfect story book knight in the first book, to then find out they are fake. lol. But the ugly, scarred, horrible Knight that scared her right off the bat. Turns out to be the one person who tells her the truth and protects her. She actually fantasizes about him. Seems like an odd pairing for sure. But do I ever hope he is around the next time someone hurts or tries to use Sansa.

Tinfoil, definitely. But I am ok with that.

[Aebram]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:14 PM, LongRider said:

On 8/3/2023 at 7:05 AM, sifth said:

Does Mel even know how to bring people back? The way Thoros tells us it happened, makes the reader believe this has never happened before. 

The answer must be no, as she hasn’t mentioned it.  Thoros was surprised as anyone one when Beric reanimated.  If this was a skill the Red priests have, he should have known about that long ago. 

From the way Thoros described it, it seems that the "last kiss" is a standard ritual in his religion. So Mel probably knows how to do it; but whether or not it can resurrect someone is still uncertain.

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, Aebram said:

From the way Thoros described it, it seems that the "last kiss" is a standard ritual in his religion. So Mel probably knows how to do it; but whether or not it can resurrect someone is still uncertain.

What little we do know of this ritual points to it not being capable of bringing someone back from the dead. When Thoros explains it to Arya, he says he’d seen other priests give the dead this last kiss and that even he had performed it a couple of times, but never had he seen anyone come back. He assumes it’s Red Rahloo’s work but I think he’s wrong, and if it indeed has nothing to do w/ the red god, Mel has even less of a shot at pulling something like this off. 

ASoS, Arya VII

I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

Arya felt tears well in her eyes. Thoros used a lot of words, but all they meant was no, that much she understood.

[Aebram]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

7 hours ago, Aebram said:

From the way Thoros described it, it seems that the "last kiss" is a standard ritual in his religion. So Mel probably knows how to do it; but whether or not it can resurrect someone is still uncertain.

What little we do know of this ritual points to it not being capable of bringing someone back from the dead. When Thoros explains it to Arya, he says he’d seen other priests give the dead this last kiss and that even he had performed it a couple of times, but never had he seen anyone come back. He assumes it’s Red Rahloo’s work but I think he’s wrong, and if it indeed has nothing to do w/ the red god, Mel has even less of a shot at pulling something like this off. 

That's a fair point; and thanks for including the quote. Here are a couple of counterpoints.

1. We know that the red priests associate fire with life. So it seems odd that they would breathe fire into a dying person's body as a last rite. It seems possible that the last kiss was originally intended as a sort of metaphysical CPR, a last resort to revive someone who has just died.

2. We also know, or at least it's been strongly hinted, that there is a cycle or "tide" in the energy that powers magic. The tide went out about a century before the start of the story, and the dragons all died. But recently the energy has been coming back: dragons are hatching, glass candles are burning, etc.

Point 1 is very speculative; I don't know if the George's worldbuilding reached that level of detail.  But with or without that, point 2 still applies. In a magically-charged environment, if a red priest (or priestess) breathes fire into a dead person, it may provide enough life energy to revive the person. If that's what's going on, than any R'lhhorist can revive a dead person, at least until the magic goes away again.

For anyone who's interested, I addressed this in more detail in an earlier post:

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Even though I’m still inclined to believe that Aegon will be on the IT when Dany reaches KL, I also wonder if GRRM is laying the groundwork for him to contract greyscale from JonCon. Because, really, why else give JonCon greyscale if not to have it trigger something monumental? 

There’s also something to the Ashford Tourney Theory, which I find compelling, and what happens to Valarr Targaryen: he dies from a plague. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Because, really, why else give JonCon greyscale if not to have it trigger something monumental? 

It’s a possibility. The other way of triggering something monumental is indirectly instead of making him patient zero of a mass infection event. Like to drive him to desperation and an attitude of “I have nothing to lose”. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s a possibility. The other way of triggering something monumental is indirectly instead of making him patient zero of a mass infection event. Like to drive him to desperation and an attitude of “I have nothing to lose”. 

This. JonCon is going full villain. I am basically just expecting it. Horrific decision that will win Aegon the throne but make us no longer see their side as "good". 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This. JonCon is going full villain. I am basically just expecting it. Horrific decision that will win Aegon the throne but make us no longer see their side as "good". 

Jon Con wants to kill Tommen and Myrcella, and I would not be surprised to see Margaery and her cousins fall victim to the Sand Snakes.