Biggest sore loser in the saga ?

[The Bard of Banefort]

While Walder Frey is probably the right answer, Littlefinger’s pettiness cannot be overstated. This guy wasn’t able to marry his dream girl (who, let’s remember, very clearly did not want to marry him, and who he never even thought to consult in his quest for her hand in marriage*), so he spent the next fifteen years plotting the downfall of her and her entire family and, oh yeah, triggered a continent-wide civil war that killed thousands of people just because he had to suffer the indignity of being somewhat-wealthy instead of super-wealthy.* Oh, and he also kidnapped dream girl’s look-a-like daughter and has been manipulating and violating her since the year 2000.

Seriously, just consider how many people had to die for this guy’s ego, and he is EASILY the series’ biggest sore loser.

*People always seem to leave this part out when talking about poor Petyr’s tragic childhood. He saw Cat as a prize, not as a real person.

 *Another bizarre take: that Petyr was a commoner. He was still more privileged than 99% of Westeros, and that’s before you factor in the free room and board at Riverrun University.

Honorable Mention: Criston Cole. We technically don’t know for sure that Rhaenyra turned him down, but either way, he devoted his entire life to destroying one woman and, like LF, killed thousands of people in the process. 

Edited March 26 by The Bard of Banefort

[GZ Bloodraven]

Aegor Rivers. Shoulda stopped with one Blackfyre Rebellion loss; instead he inspired a movement that made his side lose all five.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:38 PM, Darth Sidious said:

Jon is a sore loser. He could not leave the Starks behind and carried their war on his shoulders. 

He couldn’t leave them behind because he couldn’t allow his sister to be tortured by Ramsay? If that makes him a sore loser, fine. But it also makes him a hero and decent human being.

[StarkTullies]

Some of the villains are motivated by power, others by vengeance, many by both.  But most vengeance-motivated villains are sore losers.  To the top the list:

• Walder Frey (no explanation necessary)
• Tywin Lannister: The Red Wedding and Rains of Castamere, etc. are supposedly about his legacy and not about petty vindictiveness, but it was certainly both.  I believe he ordered Elia's death (despite his denials) for revenge that she was chosen as the prince's wife rather than Cersei.
• Cersei Lannister: As vindictive as her father, without pretending to be pragmatic.  Margaery, Bronn, etc. etc.
• Tyrion Lannister: Sore losing is a family trait for sure, and he is his father's true son.  His celebration of Masha Heddle's death is the moment I realized he's the most hateful of petty sore losers, and he hasn't gotten better since.
• Petyr Baelish: Destroying his imagined enemies while letting the world burn for a power grab was certainly an added bonus.

Characters who aren't necessarily villains but still sore losers:

• Young Griff, in a really trivial way.  I think his temper tantrum when he lost the game to Tyrion is a little overblown and isn't necessarily a warning sign, but that's the most basic definition of a sore loser.
• Barbrey Dustin, if half the things she said to Theon were true.  If she is willing to align with a sociopathic family who murdered her own nephew just to spite the two brothers who supposedly spurned her (but didn't really), she's the biggest of sore losers.  But... I think she's a mole working against the Boltons and everything she said to Theon is a lie, so she doesn't count.

There are some predictable anti-Stark postings sprinkled throughout this thread by predictable anti-Stark posters.  Make all the absurd claims that the Starks are the evilest evils that ever eviled if you like, but none of their purported monstrous acts are motivated by sore losing.

Edited March 26 by StarkTullies

[Craving Peaches]

Jon Connington.

[BalerionTheCat]

The Greyjoys. All & collectively. But Balon is their king.
Tywin Lannister. His children, his greatest shame.
The Freys. Not just Walder, most of them.
The Baratheon's brothers.

[Darth Sidious]

On 3/26/2023 at 3:53 AM, King Maegor the Cool said:

He couldn’t leave them behind because he couldn’t allow his sister to be tortured by Ramsay? If that makes him a sore loser, fine. But it also makes him a hero and decent human being.

A good brother to Arya, yes. But not a good leader or commander. 

[sifth]

Tywin, he just had to have Cersei marry a king. So much so, that he murdered an innocent woman and her two children, just to use as a peace offering to the new king.

[csuszka1948]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:56 AM, Craving Peaches said:

If he was not taking it seriously he didn't have to offer anything. Renly was in a far stronger position than Stannis and yet offered Stannis more than Stannis offered him. I think you could possibly be misinterpreting Renly's light-hearted attitude as a sign he wanted the enterprise to fail, rather than just his usual mannerisms, or even as a way to cope with how sad the situation was.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, my impression is that Renly didn't care much about Stannis - he had a certain kind of loyalty to Robert who raised him to be Lord of Stormlands, but his real family were the Tyrells - and didn't expect his prickly brother to accept his offer, but knew it would be very bad PR if he killed him without even parleying.

Besides, if Stannis accepted his offer, it would get him much of additional legitimacy (by claiming Stannis' story of Cersei's children being bastards and Stannis' abdication he is the next on line to the Throne) and a fleet which would make taking King's Landing childsplay

You are right that his offer was pretty reasonable from Renly's point of view though. He didn't think Stannis' story about Cersei's children was true, only a clever fabrication. Stannis' offer was ridiculous, he (at the very least) should have offered to make Renly his permanent heir and Mace Tyrell his Hand.

On 2/17/2023 at 5:56 AM, Craving Peaches said:

And there have been better rebukes of them. I am not convinced at all. From a narrative sense it also makes more sense if Stannis cannot win by conventional means.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree that Stannis definitely wouldn't have won by conventional means, but that doesn't mean that after Mel (who probably made multiple correct predictions in the past) told him he will be able to take Renly's army if he goes to Storm's End Stannis couldn't believe he can accomplish it. His behaviour during the parlay and that he tells Davos that he prepared for battle certainly seem to point towards that.

How and why? Because to win the battle Stannis probably only needs to kill Renly. If Renly follows his elder brother Robert's example by leading the battle from the frontlines, it is quite possible to have him killed. I think Stannis probably prepared adequate defenses to have a reasonable chance to deal with Renly's vanguard if the conditions are in his favor (sun in the eyes of Renly's cavalry, Stannis can draw Lightbringer to startle their horses).

Of course this wouldn't have worked since Renly left Loras to lead the vanguard and even if Stannis succeeded in defeating it the rest of Renly's army would have slaughtered his small and tired troops, but Stannis couldn't foresee this (for certain).

This chapter is a good example how could such a battle proceed (if Stannis gets somewhat lucky): https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12302583/11/A-Clash-of-Kings-Knees-Falling

Edited April 28 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

(sun in the eyes of Renly's cavalry, Stannis can draw Lightbringer to startle their horses).

If the sun is in their eyes lightbringer is unlikely to startle them. And to do something like that Stannis would have to be right at the very front meaning he would be at greatest risk, there is no indication he leads from the front. Also, sun can actually benefit charging cavalry because they are less likely to shy away from whatever they are charging at. 

25 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

This chapter is a good example how could such a battle proceed

I think that overstates quite a lot how much damage Stannis could do. Also it really demonises Renly (later on).

Edited April 28 by Craving Peaches

[csuszka1948]

39 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think that overstates quite a lot how much damage Stannis could do. Also it really demonises Renly (later on).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with the author's interpretation of Renly (although if his portrayal was true, then Renly would be an example of 'bad man, good king'), but I think his description of the battle was accurate.

I think the comments from Cat and the fact that Renly rejects the military advice of his more seasoned advisors and goes with his own without much experience, knowledge (we know of his opinion about books) or instinct* of actual warfare is intentional. GRRM wants to convey that Renly is an inexperienced and arrogant military commander.

(Of course it's difficult for this to come across when GRRM himself is not a master of mediaval warfare himself...)

 

However, he is not an idiot, so I think he would learn from his mistakes and during his next battle he would be more willing to listen. In that sense the battle against Stannis would have been a perfect 'test run'. 

 

*that's just personal opinion, but I don't think he is Robert 2.0 besides looks

Edited April 28 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think the comments from Cat and the fact that Renly rejects the military advice of his more seasoned advisors and goes with his own without much experience, knowledge (we know of his opinion about books) or instinct* of actual warfare is intentional.

The thing is though, he does actually consider their advice. He went to Storm's End because Randly Tarly suggested it and his men agreed. If the sun really was going to be that much of an issue, they would have tried harder to persuade him. They clearly aren't that bothered about it to the point where they will bring it up again, if they thought it would be that big an issue why wouldn't they? Also, Catelyn is not a military expert either, and she is critical of Renly because what he is doing doesn't help Robb.

[csuszka1948]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 Also, Catelyn is not a military expert either, and she is critical of Renly because what he is doing doesn't help Robb.

 

I am not talking about Cat's remarks about why Renly doesn't go help Robb.

Renly's political (and military) strategy was excellent (even Tyrion remarks on it(, his military tactics wasn't.

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am not talking about Cat's remarks about why Renly doesn't go help Robb.

I know, what I meant is that Catelyn may be a bit biased against Renly in general because he isn't helping Robb, and this would impact all her judgements of him.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Aerys II also. He was willing to blow up his own capital, with his grandchildren inside to spite the rebels and Tywin.

[KingAerys_II]

The Martells are losers. 

Their scheming and plots are ridicolous, meanwhile Varys and Littlefinger killed : Tygett, Joffrey, Kevan and the war of the Five Kings is an invention of Baelish to gain power.

Varys brought Tyrion to Tywin chamber, in the end the Spider and Littlefinger annihilated House Lannister, and after killing Pycelle, he is still around the Red Keep. 

So we should compare the plots of smart characters as Manderly, Baelish and Varys to Arianne plot, this makes you think that Dorne is ridiculous 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

So we should compare the plots of smart characters as Manderly, Baelish and Varys to Arianne plot, this makes you think that Dorne is ridiculous 

I agree. Doran's 'plan' if there even is one, has taken a longer time to start executing than all the others, so long that everyone who was a Target died, and it has done zilch, meanwhile Petyr who has had less resources to work with achieved much more in terms of scale.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. Doran's 'plan' if there even is one, has taken a longer time to start executing than all the others, so long that everyone who was a Target died, and it has done zilch, meanwhile Petyr who has had less resources to work with achieved much more in terms of scale.

Dorans  plan has changed overtime though

To be fair to him doran we are shown time and again is very concerned with collateral damage hence settling on the seeming surgical.strike option ie send viper to court, posion tywin and then kill ser gregor in trial by combat. He has allies to consult and a family+ a kingdom  to protect

By contrast littlefinger does not give one single.fuck ,he cares not who gets hurt and hes awnserable to no one. Thus hes able to move fast and improvise as he goes along. Until he has his creepy crush on sansa literaly everyone he sees or interacts with is expendable to him.

Edited June 23 by astarkchoice

[KingAerys_II]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Dorans  plan has changed overtime though

To be fair to him doran we are shown time and again is very concerned with collateral damage hence settling on the seeming surgical.strike option ie send viper to court, posion tywin and then kill ser gregor in trial by combat. He has allies to consult and a family+ a kingdom  to protect

By contrast littlefinger does not give one single.fuck ,he cares not who gets hurt and hes awnserable to no one. Thus hes able to move fast and improvise as he goes along. Until he has his creepy crush on sansa literaly everyone he sees or interacts with is expendable to him.

He is a loser, they didn't avenge Elia and the children, there is this thing of the Blackfyre conspiracy led by Illyrio and Varys, Illyrio gave the three dragons eggs to Daenerys, meanwhile Varys gave Ned the clues about Joffrey, then theres Littlefinger that made the rest. 

These characters are superior intellects, they destroyed entire houses, Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, Tully, all victims of the spider web, and the only man the spider fears is Littlefinger 

[James Arryn]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Dorans  plan has changed overtime though

To be fair to him doran we are shown time and again is very concerned with collateral damage hence settling on the seeming surgical.strike option ie send viper to court, posion tywin and then kill ser gregor in trial by combat. He has allies to consult and a family+ a kingdom  to protect

By contrast littlefinger does not give one single.fuck ,he cares not who gets hurt and hes awnserable to no one. Thus hes able to move fast and improvise as he goes along. Until he has his creepy crush on sansa literaly everyone he sees or interacts with is expendable to him.

Another advantage LF has over other schemers is that he doesn’t have to conclude anywhere in particular. It’s a LOT harder to plot and stay in the shadows and affect the changes you need when you have one specific goal in mind. Amongst other issues, if people can determine where you need to end up, they can anticipate your actions much more easily. This is why imo Varys >>>>>LF as a plotter, because he had kept so many moving pieces working towards a specific agenda without anyone being able to spot it or stop him. If he had the freedom of movement LF has, he could…well, do almost anything. Who in KL would ever be safe if Varys decided he wanted chaos?