How far does a tragic backstory go?

[James Steller]

We have plenty of characters who are, at best, morally grey people who have done bad things out of revenge, the greater good, etc. At worst, they're monsters who do terrible things without seemingly any sense of remorse. But many of these grey characters also have tragedy in their own backstories, which clearly shaped them negatively, or traumatised them. 

But how far does that go for you to forgive certain characters? Who do you forgive and who do you condemn, and what influences your decision? I mean characters like Tyrion, Sandor, Arya, Stannis, Aeron, Theon, Robert, Daenerys, and any other characters that you want to bring up. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

I'm not sure what purpose it serves to try calling out certain characters as more morally grey than others, other than to incite. Every PoV character in the series is grey, from the lightest shade (Brienne) to the darkest (Victarion, or Cersei if he's too dark).

Aside from arguably Victarion, no real (not a Prologue or Epilogue one-off) PoV character is remotely comparable to someone like Gregor Clegane or Vargo Hoat or Ramsay Snow.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

15 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I'm not sure what purpose it serves to try calling out certain characters as more morally grey than others, other than to incite. Every PoV character in the series is grey, from the lightest shade (Brienne) to the darkest (Victarion, or Cersei if he's too dark).

Aside from arguably Victarion, no real (not a Prologue or Epilogue one-off) PoV character is remotely comparable to someone like Gregor Clegane or Vargo Hoat or Ramsay Snow.

Not everyone has a tragic backstory, though, to be fair.

[EggBlue]

19 minutes ago, James Steller said:

We have plenty of characters who are, at best, morally grey people who have done bad things out of revenge, the greater good, etc. At worst, they're monsters who do terrible things without seemingly any sense of remorse. But many of these grey characters also have tragedy in their own backstories, which clearly shaped them negatively, or traumatised them. 

But how far does that go for you to forgive certain characters? Who do you forgive and who do you condemn, and what influences your decision? I mean characters like Tyrion, Sandor, Arya, Stannis, Aeron, Theon, Robert, Daenerys, and any other characters that you want to bring up. 

backstories are explanations for certain behaviors. they don't excuse the terrible course of actions characters might take. the exceptions are the characters who are still in traumatic situations, such as Arya (the only one I can think of ). 

[Many-Faced Votary]

50 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Not everyone has a tragic backstory, though, to be fair.

The younger characters are growing up during the worst wars Westeros has seen since the Seven Kingdoms were established and everything that entails, and the older characters were all traumatized by the reign of Aerys II and the events of Robert's Rebellion and are now facing significant loss as well. Furthermore, most if not almost all of the PoV characters are marginalized in at least one way. (And over in Essos, Dany's backstory is among the most tragic.)

[Hugorfonics]

Backstories are cool because its like they happened to another person. Tysha was raped by a child. Ned rose in rebellion before any of this family but back when he still had one. Its feels like Brandon and Petyr fought a duel over another Cat. 

Even Stannis, it's like his life, despite constantly being talked about him, started in acok. He's there to avenge Robert and avenge Ned, that's where his story starts.

Theon is interesting because while he only "comes alive" in acok we get to know him in agot living in his Winterfell prison, so for him his backstory is more like, story.

Regarding judging em, I don't really. Besides how can I judge Tyrion? That's my guy. They all are.

Its like, Tywin and Gregors sack is an ugly story but their work in the riverlands is an ugly scene, it hits closer. But tbh they're a bit bland.

I guess there's like Rams and Cers who just come out swinging and we have no time to know them let alone their back story before labeling them. I mean agot, she's the worst. Just mean and fucking her brother. And Ramsay's not even Ramsay. Just Reek and then Ramsay for like half a page and then disappears for a few books. 

But later, like after Dany and Tyrion have bathed in blood and I havent blinked, we see Cersei has some curses on her that she's trying to fight off. Her battle against chauvinism and her overthrow of the rapist Robert, she's still the worst but I definitely empathize and tbh find myself rooting for her.

Even Ramsay I feel bad for. That dude was a barely recognized bastard, would have gone down the well if his baby eyes were shut. His father Roose owned some ruin called a castle and that's it, and Ramsay had to build everything he's achieved by himself. Hes kinda like Stannis in that way of only coming alive in adwd despite having scenes in acok. Because this Reek business? It happened to somebody else

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

backstories are explanations for certain behaviors. they don't excuse the terrible course of actions characters might take. the exceptions are the characters who are still in traumatic situations, such as Arya (the only one I can think of ). 

Just about to say this. Each of the POVs we get have faced trauma, grief, or pain in one way or another. Everyone reacts differently, and we as the readers are watching them cope, grow, fail, succeed, etc. There are specific actions carried out by certain POV characters that for me personally are unforgiveable or require punishment. Punishment aside, a couple POV characters tend to show little to no remorse over their own crimes, usually because they try to resist any memory of it, or they come up with as many excuses as possible to justify it, or they blame their actions on someone else. That prevents positive growth. I'm thinking of adult characters, ironically. There's also false growth too, where someone does nice things for other people but they're doing it to feel better about themselves, whilst simultaneously refusing to acknowledge their wrongdoings. 

[Curled Finger]

A million years ago someone posted a topic asking us to defend gads who was it...Vargo Hoat, Some Nut in Essos or Gregor Clegane.  The only one I could come up with a legal defense for was Clegane.  He's got those horrible headaches, doodah.  Who knows, maybe he's got a brain tumor or a partially consumed twin up there or something.  We knows he's a lousy bastard, but we do get enough about what goes on with him now to know something is terribly wrong with him.  Doesn't mean I like him.  Just means I can't execute.  Life without parole.  

[Gilbert Green]

In real life, my religion forbids me to judge others.  But there is still often a duty to punish evildoers for the protection of others.

None of this necessarily translates to fiction.  Characters in stories are just literary devices; so why not judge them?  There are all kinds of ways an author can choose to deal with themes of crime, punishment, justice, vengeance, mercy and redemption.  And if he wants the villain to escape justice so he can have a redemption arc instead, that can be fine.

Generally, in fiction, I prefer that crime not pay, and redemption not be too easy.  Sandor seems to be on what might be a redemption arc.  Jaime not so much.

As for tragic backstories, I guess that's part of the "judge not" rule, because who can tell what role it played?  But villains and saints can both have tragic backstories, and the main difference seems to be that villains are very good at feeling sorry for themselves.  So I don't give tragic backstories too much weight.  For instance, when I read FRANKENSTEIN, I did not let the monster off the hook for his murders, the instant he started telling a sob story.  And I don't think the author intended me to either.

[Craving Peaches]

I don't care how tragic their backstory is, there is no excuse for the murder of innocents.

[Nevets]

The character whose backstory makes me sympathize the most with him and his actions is probably Sandor Clegane.  His childhood was truly horrific; being burned by his brother and not being believed could mess anyone up and helps account for the fact that he is an angry, violent, verbally abusive man who is constantly drunk.  He seems to be getting better though.  I suspect Sansa's influence paid no small part in that.

Tyrion's backstory helps explain him as well.  His bitterness and whoring are connected to his past.  He's fairly sympathetic early on but seems to be getting worse with each book.

Cersei and Theon have unpleasant backstories but their actions are so awful it can't make up for it.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't care how tragic their backstory is, there is no excuse for the murder of innocents.

Define " innocent".  Actually I'm being merely rhetorical.

But I've seen characters such as Gared, Dareon, Mirri Maz Duur, Shae, and even Janos Slynt as innocents whose deaths were utterly unjustifiable and whose killers are evil or crazy for doing so.  I don't have a real problem with any of them under the circumstances presented.  Obviously, others can and do disagree.

[Many-Faced Votary]

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I suspect Sansa's influence paid no small part in that.

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Mirri Maz Duur, Janos Slynt as innocents

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

" innocent"

Innocent babies such as the ones Cersei killed.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

/cdn-cgi/mirage/bc47d56566b199a6b5c5a9d42c8b58924c2410613bafccc017177c69ad97ef3c/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_agree.gif

/cdn-cgi/mirage/bc47d56566b199a6b5c5a9d42c8b58924c2410613bafccc017177c69ad97ef3c/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_worried.gif

To be fair, they’re half right. Mirri did a bad thing to avenge her people and prevent more suffering. Janos was a POS, though.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

28 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

To be fair, they’re half right. Mirri did a bad thing to avenge her people and prevent more suffering. Janos was a POS, though.

Yeah Mirri did something horrible, but she had every reason to feel vengeful at Drogo and the Dothraki for everything they did to her and her people, and at Daenerys for being complicit in it and expecting her to heal Drogo and having done too little too late for her.

The same can't be said for Janos.

[Curled Finger]

Took me a long time to get over Sansa's early betrayals of her family to Cersei.  It wasn't necessarily the books themselves that got me beyond my grudge.  It was this place and the greater grown up  compassionate conversations and analysis of her character that opened my eyes.   I have never held Bran in contempt for his "abominations" but he's a very little guy.   Somehow age plays very large in this guilt placing of mine.   

In this unraveling of Sansa's more complicated character it becomes apparent that she is very much a child in AGOT.  Just a little girl who has no real understanding of the danger she and her family are in.  While that may not satisfy me entirely, watching her pay over and over and over certainly does.  That single night during Stannis' invasion was enough to pay for her indiscretions, much less all the awful frightening things Joffrey does to her.  She is still a little girl during all this.  It never seems to end for her.  Sansa's relief at her rescue with freaking Littlefinger is almost too heartbreaking to read.   The deconstruction of the sweet little girl into what she is becoming which isn't all bad, but is a far cry from what she might have been really is a tragedy.   

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Took me a long time to get over Sansa's early betrayals of her family to Cersei.

For sure, she was such a little weasel. And she wasn't even that exciting compared to Ned or Arya, after they leave it's Tyrion who's the exciting one in KL. 

What got me was her last chapter in asos, I was convinced Lysa was about to kill her. When that shoe dropped! And the snow in her hair, clinging to that poll. (Probably the best written dramatic scene in asoiaf) It just struck me out of nowhere, that this lady is by far my favorite Stark. Probably second out of all asoiaf.

Like yea she snitched to Cersei, and was mean to her sister but, Robb is dead. Like who the hell cares about this petty stuff anymore? (Like the death of everyone lol) I like survivors, and while her sister does it by eating bugs or whatever, Sansa shows she's just as tough. But in a different way. (I think it's fun imagining them switching places. Both would be dead dozens of times by now)

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

In this unraveling of Sansa's more complicated character it becomes apparent that she is very much a child in AGOT.  Just a little girl who has no real understanding of the danger she and her family are in.  While that may not satisfy me entirely, watching her pay over and over and over certainly does.  That single night during Stannis' invasion was enough to pay for her indiscretions, much less all the awful frightening things Joffrey does to her.  She is still a little girl during all this.  It never seems to end for her.  Sansa's relief at her rescue with freaking Littlefinger is almost too heartbreaking to read. 

Yea totally, even though we saw all this go down it gets really easy to ignore or justify or whatever. Especially with each reread.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The deconstruction of the sweet little girl into what she is becoming which isn't all bad, but is a far cry from what she might have been really is a tragedy.

I love it lol

[Curled Finger]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like who the hell cares about this petty stuff anymore?

That was just about the most perfect thing I have seen written here all month Brother.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

13 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Mirri did a bad thing to avenge her people and prevent more suffering.

13 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Yeah Mirri did something horrible, but she had every reason to feel vengeful at Drogo and the Dothraki for everything they did to her and her people, and at Daenerys for being complicit in it and expecting her to heal Drogo and having done too little too late for her.

 

Mirri Maz Duur had every right to despise and to kill Drogo, and yes, to despise Dany and the rest of the khalasar. She had no "right" to kill Rhaego (an unborn child), and no "right" to take out her wrath on the fourteen-year-old girl who did as much as she could have on her own behalf to help.

Dany is only complicit insofar as she was literally physically present. She was khaleesi, not khal, and had no real power of her own; Drogo decided to pursue the Iron Throne after she (his property) and his child were nearly killed. His khalasar was pillaging for slaves as a result of this decision. Dany is unable to bear the first she directly sees of the cost of war (because she is not yet cognizant that her own life situation was one such cost), at first tries to tell herself that it is the price for the Iron Throne, is unable and unwilling to justify it, and immediately orders that there will be no rape, contingent on her being able to convince Drogo. There is nothing more that she could have done in that situation, and she was playing with fire to even do that much. I find it unlikely that MMD doesn't understand that a child-bride, in Dothraki culture no less, doesn't have much agency. 

Even setting aside the act itself, what about the consequences? How much suffering did MMD cause by making Dany powerless? Never mind all the good Dany ends up doing in the future, what about the Lhazareen women who were rescued by her? (We saw their horrible fate, as with poor Eroeh.)

A godswife and maegi should also realize that messing with prophecy is unwise, as that was her justification for killing Rhaego. For all she knew of the supposed prophecy and what she sought to prevent, she could have made things worse.

 

Regardless, MMD was not an "innocent" by any stretch of the imagination, and that is what I took issue with. Do we call Cersei Lannister an "innocent" for having motives that are known to the reader behind committing one of the vilest of acts, the murder of children?

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

A godswife and maegi should also realize that messing with prophecy is unwise, as that was her justification for killing Rhaego

She really should. After all, she was a student of Marwyn, and we all know what he says about prophecy.