Bride of Fire and the Three Mounts

[chrisdaw]

Concerning these HOTU prophecies/visions,

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Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

And

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. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .

These two passages relate to each other.

Targaryens sacrificed children to achieve their mastery over dragons and the process was carried out by accident with Dany and Rhaego and resulted in Drogon. Integral to the process is that the child's soul gets swapped with the dragon's. The characteristics of the sacrificed child shows through in the characteristics of the dragon, and the child's characteristics are a combination of its mother and father. The first passage is a description of the defining traits of three fathers of Dany's children that soul swap (second life) and become dragons. One has happened - Drogo, two are prophesied to happen - Euron and Jon.

The mounts are the circumstances in which Dany conceives the children whose souls will enter and shape the dragon (mounts) that she will ride, that's why they're termed mounts. Drogo is love, Euron and Jon are prophesied to be bed and dread.

 

This is the symbolism of Drogo.

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Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

Her silver is her horse that Drogo gifts her and it symbolises riding and flight. The implication is either that Drogon has wings because of Drogo's characteristics or that Drogon accepts Dany as a rider and thus allows her flight because of the connection to Drogo.

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The silver-grey filly moved with a smooth and silken gait, and the crowd parted for her, every eye upon them. Dany found herself moving faster than she had intended, yet somehow it was exciting rather than terrifying. The horse broke into a trot, and she smiled. Dothraki scrambled to clear a path. The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. As she turned to ride back, a firepit loomed ahead, directly in her path. They were hemmed in on either side, with no room to stop. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

When she pulled up before Magister Illyrio, she said, "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind." The fat Pentoshi stroked his yellow beard as he repeated her words in Dothraki, and Dany saw her new husband smile for the first time.

 

The silver = wings/wind/flight.

And that's really the purpose of this topic, to point out what is made obvious in the cross referencing of above passages, that the description of the HOTU brides of fire suitors are specifically characteristics relating to the dragons (more accurately mounts) Dany is to ride.

Dany will not ride different mounts, rather the mounts will change. The children's souls will enter the existing mount and the mount will change to reflect the child's father's characteristics, the HOTU passage is conveying those characteristics.

Bride of fire suggests that Dany is providing the fire every time in these equations and the question is always what qualities the other party is bringing to the table.

 

The symbolism of Euron.

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A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

Lots of death, not surprising for Euron, and undead too. The ship is important, he is a pirate captain, Ironborn with salt water in his veins, his vessel is a ship and the resulting mount will reflect this. I'm not going to flesh it out in this topic but the Stone Beast is the immediate result of Euron's child's soul entering Drogon, but it is an initial state and will further change in time to further reflect Euron.

 

The symbolism of Jon.

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A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .

Runs straight into this line and Jon's arc.

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He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

People can draw their own conclusions but I suggest it is purposely skinny on detail. The mount provided by Euron's child will come next and after it happens this HOTU prophecy will become well understood and any detail provided on the third would become like spoilers.

 

I would point out that as per the text these HOTU prophecies are not at all infallible, just one possible future.

[kissdbyfire]

But if Rhaego went into/became Drogon, how do you explain that Viserion and Rhaegal are actual dragons and not just eggs waiting for babies' souls? 

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

But if Rhaego went into/became Drogon, how do you explain that Viserion and Rhaegal are actual dragons and not just eggs waiting for babies' souls? 

 

I think Rhaego's 'lifeforce' was swapped with the three dragon eggs and caused them to quicken. That's why they were warm AFTER Mirri's ritual and why Rhaego was scaled like a lizard and has been dead for years (just like the dragon eggs had been).

The horse's (inferior) 'lifeforce' was swapped with Drogo's, that's why Drogo 'returned' in a catatonic state looking towards the sun.

 

[Sandy Clegg]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:47 AM, chrisdaw said:

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

When she pulled up before Magister Illyrio, she said, "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind." The fat Pentoshi stroked his yellow beard as he repeated her words in Dothraki, and Dany saw her new husband smile for the first time.

The silver = wings/wind/flight.

I was just thinking about silver as a metaphor for 'disembodiment of the soul' when it comes to skinchanging. A wisp of silver does have a kind of ethereal quality to it - how a ghost-like apparition might be represented on screen, for example. So this bears some examination maybe. One early mention of silver is in AGOT, Ned talking to Robert:

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"Even in the streets, it's too damn hot for wool or fur, so they go around in these short gowns, silk if they have the silver and cotton if not, but it's all the same when they start sweating and the cloth sticks to their skin, they might as well be naked." The king laughed happily.

Silk if they 'have the silver' - but they 'might as well be naked'. Well, what's more 'naked' than being without your body?

This actually calls to mind that Stephen King concept - 'the shining' - used in the book of the same name, to refer to those rare 'telepathic / mystical' abilities possessed by Danny Torrance and others. Might GRRM be trying to assert some kind of symbolic connection here between 'silver' and 'the disembodied spirit' which would metaphorically 'fly' or move like the wind?

Pate recalls his meeting with Archmaester Ebrose, an expert on forging silver links it seems:

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This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose's sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn's barbs.

And we can see that the 'silver' archmaester is associated with sighs and softness of voice, perhaps another clue from George that we should be associating silver with more ethereal qualities?

Edited July 15, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Gilbert Green]

In my view the 3 mounts are 3 creatures that you ride upon in a literal sense.  For transportation.

Silver, the horse she rides to her marriage bed with Drogo; then Drogon, the mount she will ride to the destruction of King's Landing; and then finally, a third mount (Direwolf, Mammoth, Sphynx, Giant Falcon, Elk, Polar Bear, Dolphin, Unicorn -- take your pick).

Get as metaphorical and symbolic as you like.  All you are doing is distancing yourself from the words actually used.  Which can lead you anywhere.  But also reduces any chance that your guess will be correct.

"Mount" is not a metaphor for sexual activity.  If it were, it would make no sense that only one of the mounts was "to bed".

[Sandy Clegg]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Get as metaphorical and symbolic as you like.  All you are doing is distancing yourself from the words actually used.  Which can lead you anywhere.

Yes but there’s a balance that also needs to be struck. I’m just trying to find it. Being too literal-minded is a path that George has also, subtly, warned us against. 
 

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In the purple hall, Dany found her ebon bench piled high about with satin pillows. The sight brought a wan smile to her lips. Ser Barristan's work, she knew. The old knight was a good man, but sometimes very literal. It was only a jape, ser, she thought, but she sat on one of the pillows just the same.

George has said he relies on the subtle and the obscure in his foreshadowing. So I f anything I would warn against ‘overly literal’ interpretations. The obvious path can be the right one. But the books - and the author - encourage alternative analysis. 

Between the mundane and the tinfoil there is a sweet spot. I don’t believe any one of us can say with confidence where that is in all cases.
 

[Aebram]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:47 PM, chrisdaw said:

Targaryens sacrificed children to achieve their mastery over dragons

Did they? What's the evidence for this please?

[Gilbert Green]

18 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Yes but there’s a balance that also needs to be struck. I’m just trying to find it. Being too literal-minded is a path that George has also, subtly, warned us against.

George has said he relies on the subtle and the obscure in his foreshadowing. So I f anything I would warn against ‘overly literal’ interpretations. The obvious path can be the right one. But the books - and the author - encourage alternative analysis. 

Between the mundane and the tinfoil there is a sweet spot. I don’t believe any one of us can say with confidence where that is in all cases.

There are all kinds of ways for clues to be subtle.  There are all kinds of ways for smoke and mirrors and red herrings to be blatant and obscuring.  I'm not ruling out symbolism, if the context supports it.  But if a quest for symbolism is merely an excuse for a game of freeform associations, what are the chances that our own freeform associations will match those of George?

My own philosophy is to use logic and reason and employ established meanings of words (which might include symbolic meanings, if context supports them).  I want to anchor my thoughts to realities that are external to myself.  I look for clues that make rational sense, and exclude as red herrings that which does not make rational sense.  This does not guarantee that I will succeed in guessing GRRM's secrets.  But at least it increases my chances.  Because only rational thoughts and established meanings have any reasonable chance of  leading to a meeting of the minds between me and GRRM.

Maybe GRRM does expect us to freeform associate in the hopes of guessing his own freeform associations.  But we will not be able to guess GRRM's freeform associations because there are just too many possibilities.  That is a path of failure, one way or the other.

[chrisdaw]

19 hours ago, Aebram said:

Did they? What's the evidence for this please?

[The hairy bear]

The idea that the groups of three present in the House of the Undying prophecy each correspond to three weddings/stages in Dany's life has been around since ACOK was published. The first item of each group can be easily identified with Drogo or Dany's life with the Dothraki.

On 4/28/2023 at 2:47 AM, chrisdaw said:

Lots of death, not surprising for Euron, and undead too. The ship is important, he is a pirate captain, Ironborn with salt water in his veins, his vessel is a ship and the resulting mount will reflect this.

The corpse being having "grey lips smiling" has been identified with a "Grey joy".

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

The idea that the groups of three present in the House of the Undying prophecy each correspond to three weddings/stages in Dany's life has been around since ACOK was published. The first item of each group can be easily identified with Drogo or Dany's life with the Dothraki.

The corpse being having "grey lips smiling" has been identified with a "Grey joy".

The purpose of the topic was to put forth that the symbolism in the visions will manifest specifically in Drogon (her mount) by way of the husbands/partners souls entering Drogon, that Drogo gave it wings, Euron will make Drogon a water dragon (kraken) that will lose the ability to fly and Jon would if it were to happen create an ice dragon.

[Evolett]

@chrisdaw. I've read your theory on the secret to how the Valyrians were able to ride dragons and am on board for most of it. Makes sense. Since we have that bit of information regarding the Valyrians being kin to their dragons, I've entertained thoughts in the direction of shadowbinding or some other means of soul-transfer. You've put flesh on the bones, including the likely functioning of Dragonbinder.  

I don't quite agree with your take on the HotU prophecies though, mainly because I don't see Dany getting pregnant twice more only to have her unborn babies sacrificed to such a cause. I also question the narrative purpose of having Drogon taking on the personality of three different men. What is that supposed to achieve? 

As far as main and important characters are concerned, there have been concerted efforts against child sacrifice. Ned put his life on the line when he tried to save the lives of Cersei's illegitimate kids by informing her before his intended revealation to Robert. Davos saves Edric Storm from being sacrificed, Jon sends Mance's baby to safety. Sam helps Gilly and her baby that had been marked for sacrifice to escape. Unless Dany is forced kicking and screaming and is held in a dungeon or subjected to some other form of perfidy, I don't see this happening to her again.  

The two passages from the HotU may be connected but then I would expect them to line up in the order they come. Silver-bed, grey corpse - dread and bluerose - love. 

 

On 7/16/2023 at 4:19 AM, Gilbert Green said:

"Mount" is not a metaphor for sexual activity.  If it were, it would make no sense that only one of the mounts was "to bed".

GRRM does use "mount" in relation to sexual activity rather often but I agree with your assessment of these mounts being a mode of transportation rather than a metaphor for sex. The silver carries Dany to "bed," to her bedding, in Westerosi terms. The second mount carries her to dread. The way it's phrased suggests Drogon is the carrier and this might be a journey to something she dreads doing or to something truely dreadful. If it involves the undead corpse, the event will most certainly be something to dread. The third mount carries her to love. If this is in line with the other passage as in the blue rose, then the "mount" in this case could be the ship that carries her to Westeros where she will meet Jon Snow. 

 

On 7/17/2023 at 9:45 AM, chrisdaw said:

The purpose of the topic was to put forth that the symbolism in the visions will manifest specifically in Drogon (her mount) by way of the husbands/partners souls entering Drogon, that Drogo gave it wings, Euron will make Drogon a water dragon (kraken) that will lose the ability to fly and Jon would if it were to happen create an ice dragon.

I won't reject the idea that Euron plans to concieve a child with Dany for sacrificial purposes. He is already going down that route with Falia Flowers and the fact that he desires an heir mothered by Dany, "worthy of him," whoever that "him" may be, is a clue in that direction. Standing in the way of this are both Vicatarion and Moqorro however. The black priest is well aware of Euron, has proven his ability to read the flames accurately as well as to work powerful magic. He is undoubtedly in possession of knowledge not yet revealed to the reader. As someone who belongs to a faith that believes in the prophecy and in Dany as Azor Ahai come again, there is no way he won't pull out all the stops to ensure Dany keeps her dragons. I can see him using Victarion to this end. Vicatrion will carry off the victory and get his own small personal revenge on Euron in the end but it will cost him his life. 

Euron is the stone beast but he is not the grey corpse at the prow of a ship, imo. Euron will most likely bind a dragon but it won't be one of Dany's. When Tyrion asks Moqorro what the future has in store for him, this is what the priest replies:

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“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

 

Most concentrate on Tyrion snarling in the midst of all this but the priest talks about "dragons old and young." He's not speaking of human "dragons here". There are no more "old dragons" about. Maester Aemon, the oldest dragon, has passed on. The young dragons are Dany's dragons and the old ones? Well, some survived the Dance and we have one hint, however nebulous, that at least one of them is still around. 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Evolett

[chrisdaw]

37 minutes ago, Evolett said:

@chrisdaw. I've read your theory on the secret to how the Valyrians were able to ride dragons and am on board for most of it. Makes sense. Since we have that bit of information regarding the Valyrians being kin to their dragons, I've entertained thoughts in the direction of shadowbinding or some other means of soul-transfer. You've put flesh on the bones, including the likely functioning of Dragonbinder.  

I don't quite agree with your take on the HotU prophecies though, mainly because I don't see Dany getting pregnant twice more only to have her unborn babies sacrificed to such a cause. I also question the narrative purpose of having Drogon taking on the personality of three different men. What is that supposed to achieve? 

Dany + Euron is woven through everywhere. Daario is the Euron prototype, Falia is even Dany prototype, as Euron ingratiates himself to Faalia by empowering her to her revenge, so will Euron come bearing gifts (always poisoned) to help Dany to her revenge on Westeros.

The point of Euron corrupting Drogon is to bring about two central points to the series.

Dany allows Euron into her circle to help defeat her political enemies and win the throne, Euron corrupts Drogon so that he's no longer of any use against the Others. So by dividing the realm, infighting and seeking power she will lose the ability to save the world. General ASOIAF we'd all be better off if we all just got along philosophy.

Dany will wish to fix Drogon back to his fire breathing regular dragon type form, and have a decent understanding of the process by which it is done. She will to her mind need to find a baby Daddy of good dragon stock, get pregnant, then sacrifice the child. And so comes the climactic dilemma of the whole series, is one child's life is worth the realm? Not just a question for Dany, but for child's father Jon too.

[Hippocras]

I am sorry I found the OP thoroughly confusing but it is an interesting topic and question. I think there are a few things to keep in mind:

1. It is not only Rhaego that died to hatch the dragons. Dany "sacrificed" her brother Viserys first. Yes, she did not kill him, Drogo did, but as she was Viserys's heir, had he ever held the throne, his death was synonymous with her and Drogo together, along with their son gaining power. So if he was a King, even if only a beggar King, that was the moment she became queen, not just Khaleesi.

2. Next, by trusting Miri Maz Duur, she killed Drogo. Accidental, certainly, but nevertheless. His body may have been alive still but he was dead inside, and Rhaego's "sacrifice" was used to bring him to that state. So was it even really Drogo at the end? Arguably it was Rhaego's life force in Drogo's body. "First the King and then the son".

3. "Only death pays for life". Miri Maz Duur's presence in the fire was essential to the hatching. Dany may have put the spirits of her loved ones in the eggs before that, but they only hatched because she burned Miri Maz Duur.

4. The comet. It is very hard to understand the role of the comet in these things, but I am reasonably convinced that it was esential to the hatching. I am also reasonably convinced that somehow Ned's death, killed with his own sword, was part of what triggered the comet - though I do not yet know exactly why. But it appeared right after he died, and his death was the pivot point that set everything in motion.

Viserys - Viserion

Drogo - Drogon

Rhaego -  Rhaegal

 

That's my interpretation of the events leading to the hatching.

[chrisdaw]

Nah Rhaego being the key in the instance of Dany's dragons and a child in general is thrown at us all through the series, and it's the key theme GRRM wants to explore - is there ever a situation in which the sacrifice of one's own child is moral? Like if it's to save the world. The sacrifice of the child will be how Dragonbinder is bound, that's the blood one must trade for fire, the pregnant mother blows the horn and what happened to Dany (the fire consumed Rhaego in her womb as per multiple references in the series) happens.

MMD is in Rhaegal, Viserys Viserion, Rhaego and Drogo in Drogon. Part of Rhaego's soul/blood may have gone into Viserion and Rhaegal to give them life, that can happen (for example Lightbringer, only part of the soul went into making the sword, or a tiny piece remaining in Drogo's body to keep him alive while his soul was in the egg), but the controlling majority portion is with Drogo in Drogon (GRRM has used Bran/Hodor and Thistle/Varamyr to establish that multiple souls in one body is something that happens). Truly MMD shouldn't be able to get in by the rules I argue as she's not blood related to Rhaego, but she is, she broke the rules, GRRM broke his own rules even, it's magic he can do that. When Dany dies and her soul joins Rhaego and Drogo in Drogon that's the three heads of the dragon (and the scene the TV show used in place of all the near unfilmable HOTU book scenes).

[Mourning Star]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:19 PM, Gilbert Green said:

"Mount" is not a metaphor for sexual activity.  If it were, it would make no sense that only one of the mounts was "to bed".

It’s not really a metaphor, but “mount” is used as slang for sexual activity in the series repeatedly. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it was used this way for only one of the mounts in the prophesy.

Khal Drogo has a thousand horses, tonight he looks for a different sort of mount.

…

"This one is Mago, who rides in the khas of Ko Jhaqo. He says the khaleesi has taken his spoils, a daughter of the lambs who was his to mount."

…

"It pleases me to hold them safe," Dany said, wondering if she had dared too much. "If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons."

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mourning Star

[BlackLightning]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:19 PM, Gilbert Green said:

"Mount" is not a metaphor for sexual activity.  If it were, it would make no sense that only one of the mounts was "to bed".

Not true

Mount is not a metaphor for sexual activity but for husband. Not only does she "mount" her husband (yes, in terms of sex but also in terms of mobility) but her husband mounts her. Meaning all three marriages will be mutually beneficial on some level.

The first is Drogo because the whole purpose of that marriage was for the bed: sex and childbirth.

The second mount is clearly going to be Victarion because the express purpose of that marriage will be for war. Both Victarion and Dany are seeking to empower themselves and strike fear in the hearts of their enemies. It's curious that the words of House Greyjoy are "We Do Not Sow"...and that it has just dawned on Daenerys that dragons plant no trees. It writes itself.

Third will likely be Jon Snow, who she will likely fall heads over heels for. She thinks she loved Drogo and Daario but she doesn't. Drogo is a combination of familial love and Stockholm Syndrome (i.e. "love the one you're with) and Daario is pure lust. But with Jon, she'll likely be giggling and stuttering whenever he's around and drawing pictures and daydreaming when he's not around.

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Third will likely be Jon Snow, who she will likely fall heads over heels for. She thinks she loved Drogo and Daario but she doesn't. Drogo is a combination of familial love and Stockholm Syndrome (i.e. "love the one you're with) and Daario is pure lust. But with Jon, she'll likely be giggling and stuttering whenever he's around and drawing pictures and daydreaming when he's not around.

I am not entirely convinced that Jon and Dany will be in love in the books. The show made some really huge changes. One of the changes was to get rid of Young Griff. But what if Aegon turns out to be real and someone else is the mummer's dragon? Then the story has two Aegons? or would that mean that the love story part is actually Young Griff's, and Jon was never an Aegon at all? I know, there is the blue rose from HOTU, which seems to suggest something between her and Jon. On the other hand there are a very large number of hints that Dany has quite a strong affinity for heat, and that her natural habitat is much farther South, and Aegon just happens to be conquering and/or allying with parts of the South right now.

As for what "mounts" means:

I think it does actually have to do with what she rides, but that the rides are very much affiliated with husbands. So it means both. The Silver was a gift from Drogo and ties her to the Dothraki. The ships will be a gift from the Ironborn and will tie her to them for a time. Finally, the third will connect her to another man and his army, be it Jon or Aegon. Regarding Aegon, if he is real it could be Rhaegal or an elephant of the Golden Company, and if Jon is the man in question, then it could be Rhaegal or Ghost.

 

 

 

[Jon Fossoway]

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Not true

Mount is not a metaphor for sexual activity but for husband. Not only does she "mount" her husband (yes, in terms of sex but also in terms of mobility) but her husband mounts her. Meaning all three marriages will be mutually beneficial on some level.

The first is Drogo because the whole purpose of that marriage was for the bed: sex and childbirth.

The second mount is clearly going to be Victarion because the express purpose of that marriage will be for war. Both Victarion and Dany are seeking to empower themselves and strike fear in the hearts of their enemies. It's curious that the words of House Greyjoy are "We Do Not Sow"...and that it has just dawned on Daenerys that dragons plant no trees. It writes itself.

Third will likely be Jon Snow, who she will likely fall heads over heels for. She thinks she loved Drogo and Daario but she doesn't. Drogo is a combination of familial love and Stockholm Syndrome (i.e. "love the one you're with) and Daario is pure lust. But with Jon, she'll likely be giggling and stuttering whenever he's around and drawing pictures and daydreaming when he's not around.

To mount is a way the dothraki refers to sex (very few quotes you would find on that). Also to dominate (the stallion who will mount the world). But mostly it is used in-text for horses and transportation.  

Why would the Undying talk in 'dothraki' slang associating mounts with sex or marriage? No sense in that.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[Gilbert Green]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:04 PM, BlackLightning said:

Not true

Mount is not a metaphor for sexual activity but for husband.

One rides one's husband in bed.  One does not ride him to bed.