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Football: Windows of missed opportunities

A Horse Named Stranger

By A Horse Named Stranger,
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ljkeane Council Member

ljkeane

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Mexal said:

This is just not Mac Allister. I like Mac Allister and I get the point of comparing him with Havertz given we bought him as an 8, but not to Rice. For what Arsenal was looking for, think the only option in the PL was Caicedo (which I would have loved) but I think Arteta views the English leadership as a very strong need.

As I said Mac Allister was used in various positions by Brighton but pre World Cup when he was used more often deeper he'd recovered possession 124 times while Rice was at 139. He's also pretty press resistant as well as good at progressing the ball, if not quite the ball carrier Rice is. I don't think he'd be as good in the deep role as Rice but he could play there and I'm not sure Rice is £70 odd million better than him at it.

I don't actually think Arsenal should have signed Mac Allister but I do think if they're going to compete with City's unlimited resources they need to absolutely maximise what they can get from their funds. I think they probably could have gotten Caicedo for a reasonable amount less than Rice (maybe £80 million ish?) and Maddison for that left sided 8 role was available for £40 million and looks a better option than Havertz to me. Maybe I'm wrong but that looks the concern for me.

From Liverpool's perspective that Mac Allister is positionally flexible is probably more valuable to them as I'd expect they're going to use him Wijnaldum style and slot him in where needed. I don't know a lot about Szoboszlai but he does seem to fit the profile for what they need for that right sided 8 role as they need someone to drift out and provide width with Salah and Alexander-Arnold moving infield.

Edited by ljkeane
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Raja Council Member

Raja

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Yeah, AM wouldn't play the same role that Rice would play for us. I also do not think in the grand scheme of things 80 million vs 100million is going to make any difference in catching City, that's just silly. Will also say that personality is just as important to the players we're buying as opposed to how they play.

As for the rest of the players being mentioned, I think it's a bit simplistic to say they could just easily slot into x role and that's why a team should be buying them. We had a look at Maddison last year and decided not to get him, but I think it's all about preferences really and what Arteta prefers.

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=L5Hf2YUehiH-6pEeFFF_P


Look, I'm just saying.

That pass accuracy is some rookie numbers, fam.

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Raja Council Member

Raja

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1 hour ago, Mexal said:

 yet we're arguing that Arsenal could have bought a better player in Mac Allister for half the price for a different position than they bought Rice for.

Agreed.

I also think both those liverpool signings are pretty good!

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ljkeane Council Member

ljkeane

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10 minutes ago, Raja said:

I also do not think in the grand scheme of things 80 million vs 100million is going to make any difference in catching City, that's just silly.

Yeah, I really disagree on that. It's not that saving the £20 million in particular is what's important, it's getting the absolute most out of your resources. City can afford to spooge £100 million on Grealish and then spend a season developing him. For the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool, even United, to get close to City they need to be firing on all cylinders. So if Arsenal could have saved £20 million on the Rice position and £25 million on the Havertz position that's £45 million they could have spent on a really good squad player which could be key in a brutal title race.

As I said the first time I posted on the subject I can see how it could work but for Arsenal to compete for the title they need Rice and Havertz to not just be half decent, they need them to be worth the money they've paid for them.

 

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Mexal Council Member

Mexal

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10 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

As I said the first time I posted on the subject I can see how it could work but for Arsenal to compete for the title they need Rice and Havertz to not just be half decent, they need them to be worth the money they've paid for them.

Totally agree with this. They very much do, which is unfortunately the problem every team has with City. Every misstep in the transfer market puts them further behind because they can't just replace that person with someone of the same cost the following season if they fail like City can. Arteta has a pretty good record so far so I'm hoping for the best.

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Raja Council Member

Raja

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Yeah, we need these players to play a big part next season, I don't disagree with that. 

Wonder if we go back in for Lavia after we've sold a few players.

Also, ideally Flo stays at arsenal for this season but it seems like we might sell

Edited by Raja
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Mexal Council Member

Mexal

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I’m annoyed by Flo. I get he got a taste of first team play and wants that exclusively, but that’s the point of loans. Fight for your place, make an impact. Annoyed that we are going to sell a 21 year old talent who had 20+ goals.

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Raja Council Member

Raja

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I’m annoyed by Flo. I get he got a taste of first team play and wants that exclusively, but that’s the point of loans. Fight for your place, make an impact. Annoyed that we are going to sell a 21 year old talent who had 20+ goals.

True. I don't think Arteta can turn around and be like 'yes, you're gonna get lots of first team football' - you have to earn your place, especially in a side that just finished second in the league. I think he'll get game time if he stays

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Spockydog Council Member

Spockydog

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MacAllister's fee was an freakishly freaky aberration, due to a ridiculously low release clause, set when he was essentially a footballing nobody. 

People comparing his value/quality with the fee paid for Rice need to get some perspective. 

Also, anyone saying Rice is a gamble/not worth the money really hasn't been paying attention over the past five years. He's fucking brilliant. And there is probably just one player better than him at 6, and that's Rhodri. And let's see how long he can hang on to that title now Rice is being coached by Arteta, and not playing for David 'where's me eyebrows?' Moyes.

 

Edited by Spockydog
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polishgenius Council Member

polishgenius

Posted
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

MacAllister's fee was an freakishly freaky aberration, due to a ridiculously low release clause, set when he was essentially a footballing nobody. 


I hate to bang on about it, but Neves just went for 47mil. Tielemans (who would have been a totally viable alternative for MacAllister, though not Rice) has gone on a free. Kovacic has gone for 29. 

 

That's purely CMs moving within the Prem. Not to mention moves like Maddison for 40mil, or Nkunku for 50 - both players with similar status in the game to Rice if not higher, in their respective positions. 

 

16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

And there is probably just one player better than him at 6, and that's Rhodri.

 

I dunno how you can say this when he hardly ever plays as the deepest-lying player at West Ham (and is thus arguably not even a 6 as his best position). If anything using him in that position limits him, because one of his best skills is his driving runs and that, and he can't do that as much if he's thinking constantly about what's behind him, he's not Roy Keane. 

 

Like I say, I think he's really good, and he's not a gamble- that's why you are paying the premium on him, because you know what you're getting. But you have overpaid. You can afford to, that's great, but you've paid a lot more for him than players of similar ability and status go, that's just undeniable. 

 

ps and I promise you I say this without any bias whatsoever but the best 6 in the league is Casemiro. 

Edited by polishgenius
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Raja Council Member

Raja

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I don't think many players are worth 100m, for sure. Don't think Rice is either. These transfer fees over the last 5-6 years are out of control.

That being said, I wouldn't go anywhere near Tielemans, and we clearly had a look at Maddison and decided he's not for us.

Edited by Raja
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Spockydog Council Member

Spockydog

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Lol, you paid £90m for Antony. 

Anyway, your examples are apples and oranges. Kovacic is nearly 30. And fuck knows what murky agent strings were pulled on the Neves deal. That was just weird af. 

As for Rice's role at Arsenal, there is much speculation, but nobody knows for sure. 

And the cost.... Yeah, there is always going to be an English tariff. Especially for such an influential player. I am happy to pay it, because, once again, lol, you paid £90m for Antony. 

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polishgenius Council Member

polishgenius

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47 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Lol, you paid £90m for Antony. 

 

 

Yes. So? Us overpaying doesn't mean you didn't. We paid a massive premium because ETH wanted a player he was familiar with in his forward line, you're paying a massive premium coz Arteta wants a player with Prem experience coming in. There are reasons for it, but we both went the expensive route.

Edited by polishgenius
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