What is compelling about having Daenerys be someone other than the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella?

[Gilbert Green]

@Craving Peaches, for instance, on the first page of this thread I said I could point you to arguable clues.  You did not respond, so I decided  you were not interested.   Was I wrong?  I'm game if you are.    I can give you a list.

[Gilbert Green]

47 minutes ago, The Duck and the Field said:

I don't know if I find it compelling, but the best argument I can think of is that Daenerys actually being a Targaryen is actually somewhat contrary to the themes of the story, at least as far as some have understood it. If Daenerys is Azor Ahai, or else one of the Three Heads of the Dragon, or some form of world-saving heroine, then all of the generations of Targaryens  before her were arguably justified in cementing hegemony over Westeros. All of the incest, the brutality, and the injustice was basically necessary to bring about the birth of a world-saving hero or group of world-saving heroes born from a special inbred bloodline. Some people believe that the story is meant to prompt readers to question that idea, and I believe it is from this that many draw their belief that Daenerys is not a trueborn Targaryen, but is instead a dragonseed or a Dayne or something.

I don't personally have a problem with the idea that God (or "the gods") can bring good out of evil.  So I don't worry too much about people's heritage going back 300 years.  I do have a slight problem where a person specifically acts with the intent of fulfilling a prophesy, and seems to succeed and save the world.  That seems to me like justification, and I don't see why an author would choose to write a story that way when he can choose to avoid it.

So when Jaehaerys forces Rhaella to marry Aerys, to fulfill prophesy, I was immediately convinced that he had somehow messed it up.  I don't think TPTWP will descend from their DIRECT union.

As for Rhaegar, I think Bonifer was his dad.  And I think Aerys, during his randy period, sired daughters with the wives of noblewomen.  And the union of these will result in TPTWP (and maybe the other heads of the dragon as well), fulfilling the woods witch prophesy.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Craving Peaches]

37 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

@Craving Peaches, for instance, on the first page of this thread I said I could point you to arguable clues.  You did not respond, so I decided  you were not interested.   Was I wrong?  I'm game if you are.    I can give you a list.

I must have skipped over that. I have been trying to read phone and watch TV at the same time. Yes, I would be interested in seeing the clues.

[Gilbert Green]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I must have skipped over that. I have been trying to read phone and watch TV at the same time. Yes, I would be interested in seeing the clues.

Disclaimers:  It is only a theory, and only my particular formulation of it.  Nothing below is presented as "proof".  Merely arguable, subtle, clues. Also, I take credit for none of the ideas below.  They have all been presented before, in one form or another

(1)  In 2015, GRRM tells Victarion Chainbreaker that yes, the lemon-tree climate discrepancy is significant, and points to something spoilerish.  In 2017 he refuses to answer a question concerning when Dany leaves the house with the red door, because of future revelations concerning the house with the red door.

(2) I won’t rehash the many textual indications that lemon trees do not grow as far north as Braavos.  They are overwhelming, and GRRM keeps hitting them like a hammer.  Reminder, the climate discrepancy concerns lemon trees, not pine trees or apple trees.  It is completely irrelevant that pine trees don’t grow in Braavos, except in the courtyards of the mighty; or that apple trees don’t grow in Braavos, except in the courtyards of the mighty.  Lemon trees need a lot of sun; and you cannot buy sunlight, no matter how rich you are.  Braavos was a hidden city, whose nearly perpetual cloud cover hid it historically from flying dragons of the Valyrian Empire.  Lemons logically cannot grow there at all, and especially not under the shelter of a wall of a tall stone building (which is what the house with the red door was).

(3)  Viserys tells Dany that dragons do not mate with the beasts of the field.  But then he plots to wed Dany to Drogo.  Dany notices the discrepancy.  She had always assumed, from his Targ Purity talk, that he would marry her.  But she also recalls that he never actually said so.  Dany merely drew this logical conclusion herself.

(4)  On the eve of the wedding, Viserys gives Dany a purple dress provided by Illryio.  Tells her it will bring out the violet in her eyes.  Says tonight she must look like a princess.  (Almost as if he did not think she actually was one).

(5)  Illyrio reassures Viserys doubts.  Tells him, "Look at her.  That silver hair; those purple eyes .... she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt ...."  He then catches himself, and talks as if he knows exactly who she is.  But why is he trying to convince Dany's own brother that, based on her appearance, Dany must be blood of old Valyria

(6)  Viserys shrugs at this and says that savages have strange tastes.  "Boys, horses, sheep ...".   He seems to compare Dany to a beast of the field.

(7)  Dany remembers being punished by Viserys for thinking she could be anything other than a Targ princess.  Abusive identity programing?

(8) Illyrio is a slaver, dealing in Targaryen featured girls, who has involved himself in a scheme to sell a princess to an barbarian in exchange for an army.  He tells Tyrion this scheme involved years of planning, though Dany only recalls staying with Illyrio for some months prior to her wedding to Drogo.  What was his earlier involvement?  Maybe the procural of a Targaryen featured slave girl of Westerosi origin.

(9)  Viserys believes he has spent years on the run from the Usurper's hired knives, but King Robert has not sent any hired knives yet.  Who, then, is hunting them?  Could Ned's agents be searching for Dany?

(10)  Bran's vision sees Ned's face etched in grief as he pleads with King Robert, which apparently refers to Ned trying to convince King Robert not to send the hired knives.  But why grief?   Dany is nothing to him.  Sure, he would still be morally opposed, but not grief-stricken.  Unless Dany means something to him that is more than we know.

(11)  Ned is haunted by the promise he made to Lyanna, and thinks back on broken promises.  A failure to protect Dany, Lyanna's daughter, could plausibly be the promise he is referring to.  We see no particular indication of broken promises concerning Jon Snow.

(12) HOTU tells Dany she is a “child of three”; and when Dany asks for clarification, answers that the dragon has three heads.  But in what sense is she a child?  All people were once children, and the other heads of the dragon (maybe Aegon and maybe Jon) would be presumably even older than herself.  The interpretation that makes sense to me is that Dany is one of 3 children of a particular person, such as, maybe Rhaegar (feel free to suggest alternatives).  In other words, she is one of a set of siblings.  One can think of alternate interpretations of “child of three”, but they tend to deprive it of any meaning.  But GRRM text’s seems to underscore it as if it were a real clue to some mystery.

(13) Consistent with this, Rhaegar seemed to believe that the 3 heads of the dragon would be his own three children.  He named his first two children Rhaenys and Aegon, after Aegon and his sisters (the 3-headed dragon of Targaryen history).  In the HOTU vision, he says Aegon is the prince that was promised, and there must be one more.  We know from other sources that after Aegon was born, he was told Elia could have no more children.  He then went chasing after Lyanna, and it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that he was trying to fulfil the prophesy.

(14).  In the HOTU vision, Rhaegar seems to be looking at Dany when he says “there must be one more.”

(15)  Three mounts shall Dany ride, per the HOTU prophesy.  She has already ridden a horse and a dragon.  What will be her third mount?  Maybe a direwolf, consistent with her Stark heritage?  Note that full-grown direwolves are the size of ponies.

(16)  HOTU tells Dany she should or will “... drink from the cup of ice ... drink from the cup of fire.”  Foreshadowing that Dany has do with ice as well as fire.  The World Book mentions a “pact of ice and fire”, which was apparently meant to be a sort of Stark/Targaryen marriage alliance.  But what does that have to do with Dany?

(17)  HOTU tells Dany that to go north she must go south.  But what will she find in the south?  The house with the red door?

(18)  Ned gets really pissed when you sell Westerosi citizens into slavery.  After Jorah sold a couple of poachers to a Tyroshi slaver, Ned personally traveled to Bear Island to take his head in 293.  Could something similar have earlier happened earlier to Lyanna's missing daughter?  Someone nabbed Lyanna’s daughter, took her to a port, and sold her to a Tyroshi sea captain?  Lysene colored slave girls are valuable.

(19)  Jorah and Barristan both think Dany is more like Rhaegar than she is like Aerys or Viserys.

(20)   Who are the mysterious "They" who find Ned with Lyanna on her deathbed?  Howland and who else?  Isn't everyone else dead?  We know that, other than Howland, Ned's companions "never lived to ride away", but perhaps someone did not die right away, remaining, and ultimately dying, at or near the Tower of Joy.   Of Ned's dead companions, Lord Willam on his red horse seems to get the most attention, and his association with riding underscores an ambiguity in "never lived to ride away."  Later, we see a curious little drama about Lord Willam's widow being upset that Ned returned Willam's horse but not his bones; which further underscores the ambiguity.

(21)  Ned's companion Lord Willam has essentially the same name as Viserys' caretaker Sir Willem.  Which one is the man in Dany's fading memories?

(22)  We know that the Viserys/Aryanne marriage pact was signed in Braavos by Ser Willem, with the Sealord of Braavos as a witness, dated at the time when Dany believes she is living with a certain Willam/Willem at the house with the red door.  The pact makes no mention of Dany and this makes Dany feel strange.  I’m not sure the failure to mention Dany necessarily would be strange, but GRRM seems to underscore a dangling mystery.  Note that if Sir Willem was in Braavos signing marriage pacts at the same time Dany was living with Willem at the house with the red door, and if the house with the red door is not in Braavos, then these two Ser Willems must be two different people.

(23)  Dany has at least one fake memory of her past inspired by Viserys’ stories.  She seems to remember the flight from Dragonsone, but even she knows this is not a real memory.  Has she other fake memories, that she does not know are fake?

(24)  Dany has no explicit memories of Viserys at the house with the red door.  She remembers her own room, Willem, and servants stealing things when he died.  She assumes Viserys was there, but this could be a fake memory inspired by Viserys’ stories about Ser Willem.  She knows, however, that Viserys does not miss the house with the red door the way she does, and it was never home to him.  My suspicion is that Viserys was never there at all.

(25) At the Western Market, Dany buys scented oils that reminder her of the house with the red door - the perfumes of her childhood.  In medieval times, scented oils were mainly rose oils.  At the Tower of Joy, a storm blew a cloud of blue rose petals across the sky.  And Lyanna’s death bed smelled of blood and roses, in Ned’s visions.

(26) And of course we have been to Braavos and it smells of brine and seafood.  It seems unlikely to smell or rose oil or any other perfume oil.  I won’t belabor the point.  

(27) Ned lectures Arya that “The lone wolf survives but the pack survives”.  The “pack” is a metaphor for family, apparently.  This imagery seems to be echoed in one of Dany’s fever visions.  In one of her visions, Dany is trying to reach the house with the red door to her, which represents home, safety and (maybe, plausibly) family.  As she flees Dany fears a death that is more than death, which will leave her howling forever alone in the darkness.  That sounds rather wolfy, does it not?  Maybe she needs to escape the dragon that would devour her and find her wolf family.  Because the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

(28) Another echo of this occurs on the Dothraki sea, where Dany hears a wolf howl, and it makes her feel lonely.

(29) There were 9 bodies at the Tower of Joy, but only 8 cairns built.  It is generally assumed that Lyanna was the one who did not get a cairn.  But she would have needed something, until her bones were ready for transport.  What with the drama regarding returning Lord Willam’s horse, but not his bones, an alternate possibility is that Lord Willam is the one who did not get a cairn.

(30) The vast majority of Rhaella's double-inbred pregnancies by Aerys did not result in healthy children who lived very long, and the one who was physically healthy (Viserys) was mad.  No particular explanation is needed for the fate of Rhaella's real daughter.   (As for Rhaegar, he is hinted to come from Bonifer, making him Rhaella's first and only sane, healthy child.  This explains why Rhaegar himself could not be TPTWP – he did not unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella).

(31)  Nobody can construct a hypothetical timeline of Robert's Rebellion that matches the assumption that Jon was the child born at the time of the ToJ battle.  If you let go of this assumption, it becomes suddenly possible.  One of the many intersecting problems is that per an old SSM Jon is roughly 8 or 9 but certainly less than a year older than Dany, suggesting he would be born at about the time of the sack of KL, if not earlier, leaving Ned with virtually no time to march south, break the siege of Storms End, then proceed to the ToJ in time for Jon's birth.  Someone else, therefore, must be the child born at the ToJ. Jon can still be daughter of Lyanna, but only if he is born earlier in the abduction.  The abduction lasted 20+ months or more, which is enough time for 2 successive pregnancies.

(32).  Melisandre has a prophesy (“it has not happened yet, but it will”) about a “girl in grey” who she believes is Jon’s sister.   But Jon does not have a sister, that we know of, unless he really is the daughter of Ned and Wylla.  Or, under R+L=J, unless Rhaegar also has a living daughter.  Alys Karstark is an obvious red herring, as she does not fit the prophesy.  Besides not being Jon’s sister, she never wears grey (that we know of); and there are no large lakes between Karhold and Castle Black; and Alys’ horse was dying as she neared Castle Black, and not near any large lake.

(33).  While looking for Jon’s sister in her flames, Melisandre has another vision – this time from the past.  She sees a girl named “Melony” being sold in a slave auction.  Most people think this is a vision about herself.  But the text does not actually say so.  And “Melony” is a Westerosi name.

(34)   Quaithe keeps telling Dany she must “remember who you are”.   Which she probably intends to be read as remembering her destructive draconic nature, and nothing else.  But as in Macbeth, there may be hidden truth behind the false words of witches.

(35)   People being programmed to forget who they are is a theme that we see elsewhere, with Theon/Reek as well as Fake Arya.  Theon also uses the “you have to remember who you are” mantra.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[James West]

Daenerys Targaryen resurrected the dragons, conquered Mereen, commands the Unsullied, she is obviously a descendant of the Dragon Lords of Old Valyria.  I believe she is the daughter of House Targaryen and the only legitimate heir to Westeros.  She is the daughter of King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella.  For debate's sake let us pretend she is not the daughter of the king and the queen.  She still has dragons.  She is a great leader and blossoming to become a greater ruler.  If she wants the throne it should be hers.  I would choose her over any of the other people who can put forth a claim.  

[Hippocras]

13 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't personally have a problem with the idea that God (or "the gods") can bring good out of evil.  So I don't worry too much about people's heritage going back 300 years.  I do have a slight problem where a person specifically acts with the intent of fulfilling a prophesy, and seems to succeed and save the world.  That seems to me like justification, and I don't see why an author would choose to write a story that way when he can choose to avoid it.

So when Jaehaerys forces Rhaella to marry Aerys, to fulfill prophesy, I was immediately convinced that he had somehow messed it up.  I don't think TPTWP will descend from their DIRECT union.

As for Rhaegar, I think Bonifer was his dad.  And I think Aerys, during his randy period, sired daughters with the wives of noblewomen.  And the union of these will result in TPTWP (and maybe the other heads of the dragon as well), fulfilling the woods witch prophesy.

I don't think this is what is going on here. I think the prophesy itself is questionable, but will be fulfilled.

I don't think dragons are good. I think they, like nuclear weapons, are terrible, destructive, but also sometimes the only option when some other equally potent weapon is in the hands of someone who is intensely evil and does not value life.

I think that Dany is also too much an extreme to one side, mirroring the weapons she has brought to the world. She brought back dragons, and they will be needed for fighting the Night King, but they cannot be controlled and she herself can not be controlled or restrained. She is idealistic and entitled, and she is going to show the world that it is not ONLY the Night King that needs to be feared.

This is why I don't think it is a problem if all those centuries of Targaryens working to fulfill a prophesy and using it to justify horrible deeds comes true: because in the end the thing that they were working towards is not a GOOD thing, and itself needs to be defeated.

Dany is the mother of dragons. It makes sense if she is the daughter of a fire obsessed lunatic, conceived the night he burned alive the very Lord whose family has held prime responsibility for fending off the threat from the North for millennia. What she is NOT is the saviour of the planet. That role belongs to someone else. Someone who BALANCES ice and fire and does not belong on one side OR the other of that great struggle.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Hippocras

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Disclaimers:  It is only a theory, and only my particular formulation of it.  Nothing below is presented as "proof".  Merely arguable, subtle, clues. Also, I take credit for none of the ideas below.  They have all been presented before, in one form or another

These are some intriguing points, however I feel like some of them have a simpler explanation than Daenerys not being who she thinks she is. Do you mind if I respond point by point?

[Sandy Clegg]

5 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

35)   People being programmed to forget who they are is a theme that we see elsewhere, with Theon/Reek as well as Fake Arya.  Theon also uses the “you have to remember who you are” mantra.

For me, the reprogramming idea is the biggest take from this. The theme is just so prevalent, especially in ADWD with Reek, but this even begins as far back as the Prologue and Varamyr Sixskins, who literally engages in a 'battle for control' over Thistle's mind/body. It's subtle, but George clearly wants us to think about the idea of 'taking control' of any given individual, and to what extent one's identity can be subsumed. The skinchanging ability is the magical version of this. Reek is Ramsay's twisted take one it. They are hints of things to come.

So Daenerys not being in 'full control' of her memories is very relevant, and an idea which has been hinted at (via Lemongate) since the first book. Quaithe tells her to 'remember who she is' and we assume this is her Targ heritage, but it is very much worth considering alternatives. I'm not sure we have to go down the 'daughter of Rhaegar' route honestly, but it's an option and @Gilbert Green makes some good points. 

5 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Melisandre has another vision – this time from the past.  She sees a girl named “Melony” being sold in a slave auction.  Most people think this is a vision about herself.  But the text does not actually say so.  And “Melony” is a Westerosi name.

Melony as someone other than Melisandre ... on reading the passage in context, it seems more likely to just be Mel, owing to the fact she cries when faced with the memory. But not worth dismissing completely, as a thematic clue if nothing else.  After all, there is that other theory which gets thrown around - Dany being a Targ-looking slave girl . Brainwashed into believing she's a princess? That would be received by a lot of hate from the ASOIAF community, but it does has thematic resonance in that Dany attempts to free slaves. I'm keeping an open mind for now.

Still, if she did spend time in a 'slave camp' or such, then it does open up some imaginative possibilities. The Yellow Whale, for example, keeps a menagerie, with slaves of varying bizarre appearance (including a two headed girl with a 'lizard head' and another which is the size of an orange). So maybe that 'lemon tree' was actually something more like this.

[Craving Peaches]

One issue for me is, how do we distinguish whether there really is something up with Daenerys memories, or whether they're just 'faulty' because they are childhood memories from a long time ago. I can barely remember anything from before I was ~four or five.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Disclaimers:  It is only a theory, and only my particular formulation of it.  Nothing below is presented as "proof".  Merely arguable, subtle, clues. Also, I take credit for none of the ideas below.  They have all been presented before, in one form or another

(1)  In 2015, GRRM tells Victarion Chainbreaker that yes, the lemon-tree climate discrepancy is significant, and points to something spoilerish.  In 2017 he refuses to answer a question concerning when Dany leaves the house with the red door, because of future revelations concerning the house with the red door.

(2) I won’t rehash the many textual indications that lemon trees do not grow as far north as Braavos.  They are overwhelming, and GRRM keeps hitting them like a hammer.  Reminder, the climate discrepancy concerns lemon trees, not pine trees or apple trees.  It is completely irrelevant that pine trees don’t grow in Braavos, except in the courtyards of the mighty; or that apple trees don’t grow in Braavos, except in the courtyards of the mighty.  Lemon trees need a lot of sun; and you cannot buy sunlight, no matter how rich you are.  Braavos was a hidden city, whose nearly perpetual cloud cover hid it historically from flying dragons of the Valyrian Empire.  Lemons logically cannot grow there at all, and especially not under the shelter of a wall of a tall stone building (which is what the house with the red door was).

(3)  Viserys tells Dany that dragons do not mate with the beasts of the field.  But then he plots to wed Dany to Drogo.  Dany notices the discrepancy.  She had always assumed, from his Targ Purity talk, that he would marry her.  But she also recalls that he never actually said so.  Dany merely drew this logical conclusion herself.

(4)  On the eve of the wedding, Viserys gives Dany a purple dress provided by Illryio.  Tells her it will bring out the violet in her eyes.  Says tonight she must look like a princess.  (Almost as if he did not think she actually was one).

(5)  Illyrio reassures Viserys doubts.  Tells him, "Look at her.  That silver hair; those purple eyes .... she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt ...."  He then catches himself, and talks as if he knows exactly who she is.  But why is he trying to convince Dany's own brother that, based on her appearance, Dany must be blood of old Valyria

(6)  Viserys shrugs at this and says that savages have strange tastes.  "Boys, horses, sheep ...".   He seems to compare Dany to a beast of the field.

(7)  Dany remembers being punished by Viserys for thinking she could be anything other than a Targ princess.  Abusive identity programing?

(8) Illyrio is a slaver, dealing in Targaryen featured girls, who has involved himself in a scheme to sell a princess to an barbarian in exchange for an army.  He tells Tyrion this scheme involved years of planning, though Dany only recalls staying with Illyrio for some months prior to her wedding to Drogo.  What was his earlier involvement?  Maybe the procural of a Targaryen featured slave girl of Westerosi origin.

(9)  Viserys believes he has spent years on the run from the Usurper's hired knives, but King Robert has not sent any hired knives yet.  Who, then, is hunting them?  Could Ned's agents be searching for Dany?

(10)  Bran's vision sees Ned's face etched in grief as he pleads with King Robert, which apparently refers to Ned trying to convince King Robert not to send the hired knives.  But why grief?   Dany is nothing to him.  Sure, he would still be morally opposed, but not grief-stricken.  Unless Dany means something to him that is more than we know.

(11)  Ned is haunted by the promise he made to Lyanna, and thinks back on broken promises.  A failure to protect Dany, Lyanna's daughter, could plausibly be the promise he is referring to.  We see no particular indication of broken promises concerning Jon Snow.

(12) HOTU tells Dany she is a “child of three”; and when Dany asks for clarification, answers that the dragon has three heads.  But in what sense is she a child?  All people were once children, and the other heads of the dragon (maybe Aegon and maybe Jon) would be presumably even older than herself.  The interpretation that makes sense to me is that Dany is one of 3 children of a particular person, such as, maybe Rhaegar (feel free to suggest alternatives).  In other words, she is one of a set of siblings.  One can think of alternate interpretations of “child of three”, but they tend to deprive it of any meaning.  But GRRM text’s seems to underscore it as if it were a real clue to some mystery.

(13) Consistent with this, Rhaegar seemed to believe that the 3 heads of the dragon would be his own three children.  He named his first two children Rhaenys and Aegon, after Aegon and his sisters (the 3-headed dragon of Targaryen history).  In the HOTU vision, he says Aegon is the prince that was promised, and there must be one more.  We know from other sources that after Aegon was born, he was told Elia could have no more children.  He then went chasing after Lyanna, and it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that he was trying to fulfil the prophesy.

(14).  In the HOTU vision, Rhaegar seems to be looking at Dany when he says “there must be one more.”

(15)  Three mounts shall Dany ride, per the HOTU prophesy.  She has already ridden a horse and a dragon.  What will be her third mount?  Maybe a direwolf, consistent with her Stark heritage?  Note that full-grown direwolves are the size of ponies.

(16)  HOTU tells Dany she should or will “... drink from the cup of ice ... drink from the cup of fire.”  Foreshadowing that Dany has do with ice as well as fire.  The World Book mentions a “pact of ice and fire”, which was apparently meant to be a sort of Stark/Targaryen marriage alliance.  But what does that have to do with Dany?

(17)  HOTU tells Dany that to go north she must go south.  But what will she find in the south?  The house with the red door?

(18)  Ned gets really pissed when you sell Westerosi citizens into slavery.  After Jorah sold a couple of poachers to a Tyroshi slaver, Ned personally traveled to Bear Island to take his head in 293.  Could something similar have earlier happened earlier to Lyanna's missing daughter?  Someone nabbed Lyanna’s daughter, took her to a port, and sold her to a Tyroshi sea captain?  Lysene colored slave girls are valuable.

(19)  Jorah and Barristan both think Dany is more like Rhaegar than she is like Aerys or Viserys.

(20)   Who are the mysterious "They" who find Ned with Lyanna on her deathbed?  Howland and who else?  Isn't everyone else dead?  We know that, other than Howland, Ned's companions "never lived to ride away", but perhaps someone did not die right away, remaining, and ultimately dying, at or near the Tower of Joy.   Of Ned's dead companions, Lord Willam on his red horse seems to get the most attention, and his association with riding underscores an ambiguity in "never lived to ride away."  Later, we see a curious little drama about Lord Willam's widow being upset that Ned returned Willam's horse but not his bones; which further underscores the ambiguity.

(21)  Ned's companion Lord Willam has essentially the same name as Viserys' caretaker Sir Willem.  Which one is the man in Dany's fading memories?

(22)  We know that the Viserys/Aryanne marriage pact was signed in Braavos by Ser Willem, with the Sealord of Braavos as a witness, dated at the time when Dany believes she is living with a certain Willam/Willem at the house with the red door.  The pact makes no mention of Dany and this makes Dany feel strange.  I’m not sure the failure to mention Dany necessarily would be strange, but GRRM seems to underscore a dangling mystery.  Note that if Sir Willem was in Braavos signing marriage pacts at the same time Dany was living with Willem at the house with the red door, and if the house with the red door is not in Braavos, then these two Ser Willems must be two different people.

(23)  Dany has at least one fake memory of her past inspired by Viserys’ stories.  She seems to remember the flight from Dragonsone, but even she knows this is not a real memory.  Has she other fake memories, that she does not know are fake?

(24)  Dany has no explicit memories of Viserys at the house with the red door.  She remembers her own room, Willem, and servants stealing things when he died.  She assumes Viserys was there, but this could be a fake memory inspired by Viserys’ stories about Ser Willem.  She knows, however, that Viserys does not miss the house with the red door the way she does, and it was never home to him.  My suspicion is that Viserys was never there at all.

(25) At the Western Market, Dany buys scented oils that reminder her of the house with the red door - the perfumes of her childhood.  In medieval times, scented oils were mainly rose oils.  At the Tower of Joy, a storm blew a cloud of blue rose petals across the sky.  And Lyanna’s death bed smelled of blood and roses, in Ned’s visions.

(26) And of course we have been to Braavos and it smells of brine and seafood.  It seems unlikely to smell or rose oil or any other perfume oil.  I won’t belabor the point.  

(27) Ned lectures Arya that “The lone wolf survives but the pack survives”.  The “pack” is a metaphor for family, apparently.  This imagery seems to be echoed in one of Dany’s fever visions.  In one of her visions, Dany is trying to reach the house with the red door to her, which represents home, safety and (maybe, plausibly) family.  As she flees Dany fears a death that is more than death, which will leave her howling forever alone in the darkness.  That sounds rather wolfy, does it not?  Maybe she needs to escape the dragon that would devour her and find her wolf family.  Because the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

(28) Another echo of this occurs on the Dothraki sea, where Dany hears a wolf howl, and it makes her feel lonely.

(29) There were 9 bodies at the Tower of Joy, but only 8 cairns built.  It is generally assumed that Lyanna was the one who did not get a cairn.  But she would have needed something, until her bones were ready for transport.  What with the drama regarding returning Lord Willam’s horse, but not his bones, an alternate possibility is that Lord Willam is the one who did not get a cairn.

(30) The vast majority of Rhaella's double-inbred pregnancies by Aerys did not result in healthy children who lived very long, and the one who was physically healthy (Viserys) was mad.  No particular explanation is needed for the fate of Rhaella's real daughter.   (As for Rhaegar, he is hinted to come from Bonifer, making him Rhaella's first and only sane, healthy child.  This explains why Rhaegar himself could not be TPTWP – he did not unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella).

(31)  Nobody can construct a hypothetical timeline of Robert's Rebellion that matches the assumption that Jon was the child born at the time of the ToJ battle.  If you let go of this assumption, it becomes suddenly possible.  One of the many intersecting problems is that per an old SSM Jonhs is roughly 8 or 9 but certainly less than a year older than Dany, suggesting he would be born at about the time of the sack of KL, if not earlier, leaving Ned with virtually no time to march south, break the siege of Storms End, then proceed to the ToJ in time for Jon's birth.  Someone else, therefore, must be the child born at the ToJ. Jon can still be daughter of Lyanna, but only if he is born earlier in the abduction.  The abduction lasted 20+ months or more, which is enough time for 2 successive pregnancies.

(32).  Melisandre has a prophesy (“it has not happened yet, but it will”) about a “girl in grey” who she believes is Jon’s sister.   But Jon does not have a sister, that we know of, unless he really is the daughter of Ned and Wylla.  Or, under R+L=J, unless Rhaegar also has a living daughter.  Alys Karstark is an obvious red herring, as she does not fit the prophesy.  Besides not being Jon’s sister, she never wears grey (that we know of); and there are no large lakes between Karhold and Castle Black; and Alys’ horse was dying as she neared Castle Black, and not near any large lake.

(33).  While looking for Jon’s sister in her flames, Melisandre has another vision – this time from the past.  She sees a girl named “Melony” being sold in a slave auction.  Most people think this is a vision about herself.  But the text does not actually say so.  And “Melony” is a Westerosi name.

(34)   Quaithe keeps telling Dany she must “remember who you are”.   Which she probably intends to be read as remembering her destructive draconic nature, and nothing else.  But as in Macbeth, there may be hidden truth behind the false words of witches.

(35)   People being programmed to forget who they are is a theme that we see elsewhere, with Theon/Reek as well as Fake Arya.  Theon also uses the “you have to remember who you are” mantra.

Just to shoot down a couple before taking a nap

 GRRM himself has said Dany was born after Jon and some months after the sack of KL so what promise that he was not able to uphold that Ned can even give to Lyanna about the as of yet unborn Dany?

Why the hell would Illyrio need to procure "a Targaryen looking girl from Westeros" when Targaryens just look like any other Valyrian and bringing one from Westeros has no benefits at all?

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

One issue for me is, how do we distinguish whether there really is something up with Daenerys memories, or whether they're just 'faulty' because they are childhood memories from a long time ago. I can barely remember anything from before I was ~four or five.

Dany's memory is indeed off because GRRM changed her childhood city from Tyrosh to Braavos. Not being a real person but just a book character written by an author who changes a whole lot of things and forgets details despite wanting us to pay attention to them, Dany's memory got skewesd when he changed the palce from Tyrosh to Braavos. She kept the accent though

Quote

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?"

"My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him.

Doreah stepped up beside her. "You have the honor to address Daenerys of the House Targaryen, Daenerys Stormborn, khaleesi of the riding men and princess of the Seven Kingdoms."

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Sandy Clegg]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

One issue for me is, how do we distinguish whether there really is something up with Daenerys memories, or whether they're just 'faulty' because they are childhood memories from a long time ago. I can barely remember anything from before I was ~four or five.

Well, true. And it's not like George wants it to be clear. Ambiguity helps drive engagement in her origin story, and hides any clues he's planted.

She does get pushed by Quaithe on the memory issue, though. And the more I reread her chapters, the more something just seems to be up with her. It's hard to put a finger on why. But her story begins from a point of manipulation, and then to her seemingly taking control. And yet she never really seems free. As queen she is tied up in more knots and political chains than ever before. And her urge to reach Westeros just never really seems to be as strong as her urge to know who she is.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

And the more I reread her chapters, the more something just seems to be up with her.

I mean I get a sort of weird atmospheric feeling from reading her chapters, but for me that has more to do with them being set in Essos (which feels quite mysterious but also is a bit flat in some places), rather than Daenerys herself.

[Sandy Clegg]

31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dany's memory is indeed off because GRRM changed her childhood city from Tyrosh to Braavos. Not being a real person but just a book character written by an author who changes a whole lot of things and forgets details despite wanting us to pay attention to them

This is kind of an exaggeration of GRRM's 'forgetfulness', no? It's more likely to be an example of his use of 'unreliable narrator', as he says here:

2014 Edinburgh Interview

https://www.edbookfest.co.uk/media-gallery/item/george-rr-martin-2014-event

“I do use the device of unreliable narrator, especially when dealing with memory. I present these scenes, sometimes from multiple  different viewpoints. And these versions don’t quite ‘jive’ and so … then you have to figure out what really happened.

The only problem with that is I, not being perfect, do make real mistakes. I would prefer not to make real mistakes, but my readers are very good. They point them out. I’m terrible with eye colours, some characters eye colours change.

And when you make mistakes like that, then … when you come across the unreliable narrator, the reader thinks “Oh he fucked up again”, but actually I didn’t fuck up. Some of those are quite deliberate, so I wish I could eliminate the real mistakes … so that the fake mistakes could be seen for what they are, which is a sign of my literary genius.

Dany is a huge central character. And George has likely used the unreliable memory technique outlined above with her, to some extent, as this thread has already discussed. So it's more unlikely that he would make a fuckup regarding her past, even if he decided early on to move her origin from Tyrosh to Braavos. He surely would have factored that in as one of the 'things that you have to figure out'. It's a far cry from the issue of 'forgetting a horse's gender' or 'people's eye colour'. 

Admittedly, it's possible. We can't know 100% for sure. And George is not infallible, as he says. But Dany is no minor character, her details to be swapped willy-nilly in George's mind. We have to assume a higher level of accuracy on George's part when it comes to her. Just my two cents.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Dany is a huge central character. And George has likely used the unreliable memory technique outlined above with her, to some extent, as this thread has already discussed. So it's more unlikely that he would make a fuckup regarding her past, even if he decided early on to move her origin from Tyrosh to Braavos. He surely would have factored that in as one of the 'things that you have to figure out'. It's a far cry from the issue of 'forgetting a horse's gender' or 'people's eye colour'. 

Admittedly, it's possible. We can't know 100% for sure. And George is not infallible, as he says. But Dany is no minor character, her details to be swapped willy-nilly in George's mind. We have to assume a higher level of accuracy on George's part when it comes to her. Just my two cents.

Also the fact that he doesn't highlight the problem of her putting a memory of a lemon tree in Braavos until A Feast for Crows, it seems impossible that the discrepancy comes from his first draft of AGOT.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Also the fact that he doesn't highlight the problem of her putting a memory of a lemon tree in Braavos until A Feast for Crows, it seems impossible that the discrepancy comes from his first draft of AGOT.

Yes!

I will throw a small bone to the early-draft-artifact theory.  I think it has been plausibly shown that Dany's Tyroshi accent may have originated as an artifact of early drafts.  Now this does not mean that Dany's Tyroshi accent is a mistake.  It works fine.  Dany's Valyrian accent does not have to be that of her earliest city; and it might even be more plausible otherwise.  But it does tend to reduce the likelyhood that GRRM specifically intended Dany's Tyroshi accent as a clue to some mystery, such as, for instance, that the house with the red door is really in Tyrosh.

I still don't think it's a conclusive point.  I still think proponents of the "house with the red door is in Tyrosh" idea are justified in relying on the canon text in formulating theories.  But I don't think the house with the red door was in Tyrosh, so this is not really my problem.

But this theory really goes off the deep end when it argues that the lemon-tree climate discrepancy is a mistake, for the following reasons:

(1) There is absolutely no evidence that GRRM ever changed the location of Dany's city at an early stage of the creative process.  He merely changed its name.

(2) It reverses normal rules of canonicity.  Later drafts take precedence over early drafts, and not the other way around.  When you argue that a later text is mistaken, based on an earlier text, you are doing things ass-backwards.  The only reason this point might not fully apply to the "Tyroshi accent" argument I presented above, is because the "Tyroshi accent" argument does not depend on the later text being mistaken  -- but merely argues that the later text, however canon, is merely an incidental detail not intended as a clue.

(3) The name Braavos is inspired by the Italian word "bravo", and by the city of Venice, famous for its bravos, courtesans and canals.  It is perfectly plausible that he originally imagined it in the south, before he decided to mix things up and move it north.  The name "Tyrosh" might well have been originally inspired by Tyr, a Norse god.  None of this can be known for certain, of course, which is why you just rely on the canon text, and not make attempts to reconstruct the creative process.

(4) Maps showing the locations of Braavos and Tyrosh were not published until ADWD in 2011.  The earliest clues about Braavos' climate date back no earlier than AFFC in 2005.  Prior to this, there were plenty of clues that lemons grow only in the south, but since nobody knew where Braavos was, nobody could notice a discrepancy.  Prior to this, there was no discrepancy, and therefore no arguable "mistake" (or "clue").  This mistake cannot have originated in 1996, because we know it originated (at the earliest) in 2005.  And GRRM kept hammering the discrepancy in ADWD, and then in TWOW sample chapters, and then in the World Book, and then in his "that would be telling" response to Victarion Chainbreaker.

(5)  I've seen people dismiss GRRM's "that would be telling" comment by saying that GRRM was too proud to admit he made a mistake.  I call that projection.  

[Nevets]

33 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Yes!

I will throw a small bone to the early-draft-artifact theory.  I think it has been plausibly shown that Dany's Tyroshi accent may have originated as an artifact of early drafts.  Now this does not mean that Dany's Tyroshi accent is a mistake.  It works fine.  Dany's Valyrian accent does not have to be that of her earliest city; and it might even be more plausible otherwise.  But it does tend to reduce the likelyhood that GRRM specifically intended Dany's Tyroshi accent as a clue to some mystery, such as, for instance, that the house with the red door is really in Tyrosh.

I still don't think it's a conclusive point.  I still think proponents of the "house with the red door is in Tyrosh" idea are justified in relying on the canon text in formulating theories.  But I don't think the house with the red door was in Tyrosh, so this is not really my problem.

But this theory really goes off the deep end when it argues that the lemon-tree climate discrepancy is a mistake, for the following reasons:

(1) There is absolutely no evidence that GRRM ever changed the location of Dany's city at an early stage of the creative process.  He merely changed its name.

(2) It reverses normal rules of canonicity.  Later drafts take precedence over early drafts, and not the other way around.  When you argue that a later text is mistaken, based on an earlier text, you are doing things ass-backwards.  The only reason this point might not fully apply to the "Tyroshi accent" argument I presented above, is because the "Tyroshi accent" argument does not depend on the later text being mistaken  -- but merely argues that the later text, however canon, is merely an incidental detail not intended as a clue.

(3) The name Braavos is inspired by the Italian word "bravo", and by the city of Venice, famous for its bravos, courtesans and canals.  It is perfectly plausible that he originally imagined it in the south, before he decided to mix things up and move it north.  The name "Tyrosh" might well have been originally inspired by Tyr, a Norse god.  None of this can be known for certain, of course, which is why you just rely on the canon text, and not make attempts to reconstruct the creative process.

(4) Maps showing the locations of Braavos and Tyrosh were not published until ADWD in 2011.  The earliest clues about Braavos' climate date back no earlier than AFFC in 2005.  Prior to this, there were plenty of clues that lemons grow only in the south, but since nobody knew where Braavos was, nobody could notice a discrepancy.  Prior to this, there was no discrepancy, and therefore no arguable "mistake" (or "clue").  This mistake cannot have originated in 1996, because we know it originated (at the earliest) in 2005.  And GRRM kept hammering the discrepancy in ADWD, and then in TWOW sample chapters, and then in the World Book, and then in his "that would be telling" response to Victarion Chainbreaker.

(5)  I've seen people dismiss GRRM's "that would be telling" comment by saying that GRRM was too proud to admit he made a mistake.  I call that projection.  

If GRRM came up with the idea that lemon trees can't grow in Braavos, but are from Dorne, only in AFFC, that puts a big hole in the theory that Daenerys is a changeling.  Because the apparent fact of the House with the Red Door being in Dorne is the entire basis of the theory.  But he's had main character arcs established from the start, and there are no hints of anything unusual in the early books.  Certainly not on this scale.  In contrast, most clues to Jon's parentage are in the first book.  They're just scattered to make them hard to find.

[Gilbert Green]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can barely remember anything from before I was ~four or five.

But we don't know when Dany left the house with the red door.  GRRM was specifically asked about this and declined to answer it. 

If 5 is to old, maybe she was 4.  If 5 is too young, maybe she was 6.

GRRM has made it so she vaguely remembers a few things, but not much; and I guess he plans for her to eventually remembering even more in response to triggers (such as, perhaps, an actual visit to the house with the red door).  Whatever age he eventually gives us, I guess some will argue it is too old to forget, and some will argue too young to remember.  I anticipate both arguments, because of course any stick is good enough to beat a theory you don't like.  But until we know when she leaves the house with the red door, there is nothing to argue about.

Another factor, which minimizes the relevance of age, is that of abusive programming, as seen with Theon/Reek and fake Arya.  Theon did forget who he was for a while.  And he was an adult.  And it remains unclear if poor fake Arya remembers that she is actually Jeyne Pool.

[Craving Peaches]

What about Lys? The climate should be suitable for lemons, and if Daenerys was being trained/conditioned as a Valyrian slave girl Lys seems like the obvious option...

[Gilbert Green]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What about Lys? The climate should be suitable for lemons, and if Daenerys was being trained/conditioned as a Valyrian slave girl Lys seems like the obvious option...

Okay.  But is there more to this theory?