Ukraine War: Wagner’s fading thrust

[butterweedstrover]

19 minutes ago, kiko said:

So are they raping and killing randomly or is it systemic? You claim it's neither one or the other but it clearly happens on a massive scale. It's something that is also not forgotten in Germany, just not mentioned so actively for obvious reasons. The Muscovite army is raping on massive scale wherever they go.

And innocent boys who rape for the country? What is wrong with you?

You’re the one who has to prove it’s systemic. Most Russian boys are good kids. But of course in war death and rape happen. People have mental break downs and bad people slip through the cracks. 
 

Anyways, their goal is to win over the population, not rape them. In the case of Germany, Soviet command WANTED a high death count of German people.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

28 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Anyways, all these missiles had specific targets that I know of, and Ukraine has made a habit of putting training centers and arm factories in densely packed areas similar to Hamas. 

You somehow “know” each of the specific targets of specific missiles ? 
 

16 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Or, don’t trust western partners who lie about the Minsk agreement, arm far right organizations to ethnically cleanse territory, intervene in an effort to establish Ukraine neutrality, and poor arms into an enemy with the goal of destroying your country.

The invasion of Ukraine by Russia was “an effort to establish Ukraine neutrality”?  And if one’s country can be “destroyed” by trying to execute such and effort and failing, what does that say about the country? 

[karaddin]

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Karaddin, how many people on this thread are there? 50, 20? 

The lot of us aren’t going to change the outcome of this war. Nothing we think matters, the powers to be will decide, we are just spectators.  

I'm not saying there's any power or stakes to the argument here, but even in a case of engaging in an argument your goal is normally to convince the people you're talking to. There are alternative motivations, basic trolling, a humiliation kink, you're actually pissed off at what's being said and want to set the record straight but without any hope of convincing anyone, etc. But you seemed like you were trying to convince people and I don't think it is effective.

My primary motivation in posting was to highlight that the argument rested on an interpretation of a throwaway comment that wasn't the most likely meaning, but that your arguments against that comment sway me in the opposite direction.

I then decided to expand on that because the shots at liberalism/the decadence of the west (from the perspective of liberal Russians or not) because I am one of those gender swaps that are so clearly horrifying and frankly reading that shit pisses me off. So I wanted to make sure people didn't miss what was really being said.

From your reply maybe I read your intentions wrong, and you don't care about persuasion, you're just so overcome with appreciation for the stoicism of Rus culture in the face of hardship that you enjoy praising it and celebrate the spreading of hardship for more artists to overcome and be inspired by.

[butterweedstrover]

16 minutes ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

You somehow “know” each of the specific targets of specific missiles ?  

Not in Dnipro, but that I think was a long range missile meant for elsewhere. You can read about the military targets on Telegram or anywhere, but of course Ukraine will use any tragedy, even if caused by their own air defense to garner more support, they need it since they are not fighting this war independently. 

16 minutes ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

 

The invasion of Ukraine by Russia was “an effort to establish Ukraine neutrality”?  And if one’s country can be “destroyed” by trying to execute such and effort and failing, what does that say about the country? 

No, it was about regime change, but once Putin figured out the people he was bribing and been bribed even more, he looked for a quick way out. A guarantee of no NATO membership etc. Per the former Israeli PM they agreed (this was when Zelensky was scared) but Western intervention with the promise of more support scuttled the agreement. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Am I really seeing Stalin apologia here ffs

Remember that Russia exists to protect you helpless Slavic Poles from the Germans, Hungarians, and others. 

[butterweedstrover]

12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

 

From your reply maybe I read your intentions wrong, and you don't care about persuasion, you're just so overcome with appreciation for the stoicism of Rus culture in the face of hardship that you enjoy praising it and celebrate the spreading of hardship for more artists to overcome and be inspired by.

It's true I love Russians, like I really love them. 

But I love Americans (not westerners in general, I don't have any love for the 'collective' west) and want us all to be friends. My point is, regardless of how this war turns out, it's important that we on the internet don't hate each other. 

I might not be 100% American, but I consider it my home in more ways than one.

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well they’re not in Ukraine to blow up apartment buildings filled with innocent civilians. That’s counter to their goal of avoiding civilian deaths. 
 

Infrastructure is different but that’s also a military goal.

A hint that you aren’t seeing how your camera is squarely in the way of your picture: are you contending that this nuanced view of the ‘high civilian casualty’ friendly strategic m.o. makes MORE sense than Ukrainians killing themselves at rates of friendly fire never once recorded in any modern conflict…or anything close…yet they keep doing it because, dunno, something something the West? Get a grip.
 

You are saying the Russians aren’t doing it because it’s not part of their ‘motivation’…psst, remember you have already said military doctrine > motivation, but I digress. IOW you are saying they aren’t doing it because it does not directly conform to their officially stated objective. But do you use this logic with the Ukrainians? Do you ask what their reasoning is for regularly mis-firing missiles at their own population centres and keeping that up despite knowing the results? Does w/e convoluted word salad you’ll throw in the air to bridge the gap really convince you that Ukrainians fighting a defensive war and deciding to maintain a policy of regularly killing their own population…and, incidentally, eroding their capacity to wage war…makes more sense than it just being a tactic completely in line with Russian ‘philosophy’, a million times more than it fits in Ukraines. If you come back at me with ‘it makes them look like victims to the West’ I will not respond, it’s just insane. 
 

And I would like to address the Orwellian language you are using about Russia’s military philosophy involving accepting ‘high casualty rates’. Now, you actually have a slight friend in this in that I am willing to acknowledge that the US has rained down death on millions of civilians…still do, averaging ~ 40 bombs dropped on somewhere every day of every week of every month of every year for the past 25 years ( ie not even including Linebackers, et al) and Americans generally do a massive ‘war is hell’ shrug about it, completely ignoring the motivation behind the statement, ie, then stop bringing hell to so many brown people.

But the same applies here. Deciding that because Russia wants Ukraine and because their ‘philosophy of war’ accepts high civilian casualty rates, that this somehow excuses their responsibility in invading and introducing this philosophically approved hell upon the civilian population of Ukraine is just as morally bankrupt, not to mention facile. Don’t intentionally bring hell to people because you want something of or from them. Or, if you do, take real moral responsibility for that fact, for the countless dead children your hell has caused, for the human result of dehumanizing military policies of imperialists on the humans you choose to send to hell. 
 

Ans btw, they all do it with lip service to infrastructure. Infrastructural and military targets were the ‘official’ motivations for US carpet bombing in Germany and Japan, but the guy actually in charge of the Japanese operation (LeMay) admitted (on camera, btw) that the true motivation was to ‘kill as many Japanese people (“japs” or ‘Japos’ or ‘monkeys’ or ‘savages’ as stated in official US I.D. communiques) as possible’. So when you write ‘infrastructure is a valid target’ you are just joining the chorus of Imperialism Apologists Provided It’s My Empire club that’s been going strong for yonks. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by James Arryn

[James Arryn]

25 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

Remember that Russia exists to protect you helpless Slavic Poles from the Germans, Hungarians, and others. 

Well, to be fair, Holdomor IS slightly mischaracterized in common discussion. It was not an intentional plan to wipe out anyone, it was a genuine desire to use more modern approaches to resolve the constancy of massive famines that plagued what had become the Soviet sphere for as long as we’ve been keeping records. The evil gets in by way of callous indifference to the massive famine it either triggered or amplified under the guise of ‘it’s a process, it’s a process’ growing pains and then treating the affected areas like they’d been tourniquet’d for the Greater Good. If you think that’s much morally superior, well, as mentioned, everyone gets very realpolitik about their own empires’ evils. 
 

Edit: to be clear, I think Stalin may have even been a worse human than Hitler, so nothing above is designed as apologist rhetoric for one of the worst people to ever walk the planet. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by James Arryn

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

21 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Well, to be fair, Holdomor IS slightly mischaracterized in common discussion. It was not an intentional plan to wipe out anyone, it was a genuine desire to use more modern approaches to resolve the constancy of massive famines that plagued what had become the Soviet sphere for as long as we’ve been keeping records. The evil gets in by way of callous indifference to the massive famine it either triggered or amplified under the guise of ‘it’s a process, it’s a process’ growing pains and then treating the affected areas like they’d been tourniquet’d for the Greater Good. If you think that’s much morally superior, well, as mentioned, everyone gets very realpolitik about their own empires’ evils. 
 

Edit: to be clear, I think Stalin may have even been a worse human than Hitler, so nothing above is designed as apologist rhetoric for one of the worst people to ever walk the planet. 

I'm not talking about Holdomor. I'm talking about the Russian Imperialist propaganda that positions themselves as the unofficial protectors and overlords of all Slavic peoples, regardless of whether said peoples feel the same way about Russia or not. 

[Snowy89]

53 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, it was about regime change, but once Putin figured out the people he was bribing and been bribed even more, he looked for a quick way out. A guarantee of no NATO membership etc. Per the former Israeli PM they agreed (this was when Zelensky was scared) but Western intervention with the promise of more support scuttled the agreement. 

Another example of succesful Russian framing (and lying).

Listen to the man Bennett himself. There was no agreement whatsoever.

"The English subtitles are flawed, however. In the exchange, Bennett and the interviewer do not use the word "blocked" but rather "stopped," referring to ongoing peace talks."

So there was no agreement, and stopping talks when Russia was not offering anything close to leaving Ukrainian lands in my book is nothing to be criticized for.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Job Snow

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

I'm not talking about Holdomor. I'm talking about the Russian Imperialist propaganda that positions themselves as the unofficial protectors and overlords of all Slavic peoples, regardless of whether said peoples feel the same way about Russia or not. 

Oh, sorry, saw Holdomore mentioned a lot, assumed yours was continuation. On above, agreed.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The new government also tried to erase Russian language and culture, but you can only achieve so much when your culture is tied to another, you just end up destroying yourself. 

Where is President Zelenskyy from and what language did he grow up speaking… do tell.

[butterweedstrover]

20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Where is President Zelenskyy from and what language did he grow up speaking… do tell.

You should ask him why he allows those policies to erase the Russian language from Donbas. 
 

Actual it’s not his fault. He tried to enforce the ceasefire, but the nazis ignored him.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

You should ask him why he allows those policies to erase the Russian language from Donbas. 
 

Actual it’s not his fault. He tried to enforce the ceasefire, but the nazis ignored him.

Are we talking about Russian Nazis or the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine?

[Varysblackfyre321]

39 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

should ask him why he allows those policies to erase the Russian language from Donbas. 

It’s illegal to speak Russian in Ukraine? What is that law called?

40 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

He tried to enforce the ceasefire, but the nazis ignored him.

Yeah the Russians invaded.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

As we’re at 21 pages… I created… this: