Catelyn, Sansa, Daenerys, and Sexism in the ASOIAF Fandom

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion is grey if you compare him to like a blank sheet of printing paper, or Sir Lancelot.

Ah yes, raping women, only completely honorable people don't do that, right? (I am being sarcastic). Oh and don't forget murdering people (He murdered a bard who wanted to sing about Shae off the top of my head). He armed the mountain clans because Lysa Arryn imprisoned him which led to widespread death..of small folks, not Lysa Arryn. His murder of Shae in the books is far from strait forward (in the show, she attacks him, but in the book she begs him not to do it). 

Now beside these more direct actions, I'd say as a leader he makes decisions that directly lead to...issues. I don't want to make a list, but he is certainly far from honorable, hence, gray. 

Honestly, though, his treatment of slaves in general, but especially slave prostitutes....is enough to make him extremely gray, in fact, I think in the fifth book he was entering a territory of dark gray. 

Final note, this is maybe less obvious, but something I mentioned to my partner. The Starks treat their servants and sworn men...with respect. As humans. The Lannisters (including Tyrion) don't. When Tyrion's two serving men die on the way the Vale of Arryn (I am rereading the first book), he literally could care less. These are men he at least spent months with on the way to the Wall and back. To me, this enters into my idea of "gray". Treating those around you with basic respect and caring if they live or die (treating their life with respect) is a basic thing people SHOULD be doing. 

[Hugorfonics]

15 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

37 minutes ago, sifth said:

He does a few good things like save Sansa, but he also helps keep a mad king like Joffrey in power.

By saving the city from Stannis who would have like, torched it
 

15 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

h yes, raping women, only completely honorable people don't do that, right? (I am being sarcastic).

They story of Tysha is extremely sad and left Tyrion with multiple scars. In Volantis he wanted to die, kinslaying and his murder of Shae snapped him and he begged for her to become a lord of Westeros, which is a pretty dark off coloring joke, but thats him. Is having violent sex with a drugged out prostitute rape? Idk, its bad tho, but its not like Gregor shit

20 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh and don't forget murdering people (He murdered a bard who wanted to sing about Shae off the top of my head).

Who pledged to expose him and his girlfriend which could have resulted in both of their deaths.

21 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He armed the mountain clans because Lysa Arryn imprisoned him which led to widespread death..of small folks, not Lysa Arryn.

Or to the rejuvenation of his mountain folk who are people as well. And yea middle ages warfare was harsh, but thats every character.

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

His murder of Shae in the books is far from strait forward (in the show, she attacks him, but in the book she begs him not to do it). 

Wrong place wrong time. And shes not exactly an innocent bystander anyway

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, though, his treatment of slaves in general, but especially slave prostitutes....is enough to make him extremely gray, in fact, I think in the fifth book he was entering a territory of dark gray. 

In book 5 hes borderline insane. The crossbow goes off like a machine gun, but he saves Aegon Penny and Jorah, with the latter two trying to kill him. Especially the saving Jorah part, he doesnt even know why he did it (Aegon he says for the scheme, but thats probably bullshit and Penny was just, he cant just leave her there for dead) but its because hes good folk who like many folk, has demons

26 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Final note, this is maybe less obvious, but something I mentioned to my partner. The Starks treat their servants and sworn men...with respect. As humans. The Lannisters (including Tyrion) don't. When Tyrion's two serving men die on the way the Vale of Arryn (I am rereading the first book), he literally could care less. These are men he at least spent months with on the way to the Wall and back. To me, this enters into my idea of "gray". Treating those around you with basic respect and caring if they live or die (treating their life with respect) is a basic thing people SHOULD be doing. 

He treated Bronn so well he contemplated fighting Gregor free of charge and then named his son after him, when Tyrions mountain folk were thrown away from KL he was disgusted by their treatment noting that these "wildlings" fought with their lives to save KL. He cares.

[James Arryn]

Fairly recently learned that the first 18 chapters were submitted (and remained unchanged) alongside that regrettable outline, the one where Sansa is pretty clearly a villain from the Stark POV. So that’s how GRRM viewed her at least part way through book 1, though for him villain does not necessarily mean unsympathetic. I am now extremely interested in finding out exactly when* the garden grew in another direction, but meantime it’s imo not helping the argument to conclude that ONLY sexism could frame her book 1 actions as betrayal/villainous from the Stark pov. 
 

Cat I think actually suffers some from being ~ bright, perceptive and reasonable (outside Jon) while also being subject to bias and error. If her internal POV played like Cersei’s she would imo be less contentious. But because she is so reasonable and perceptive we are brought along, and when she proves fallible some feel betrayed. But yea, sexism is also at play. 

Cersei…eh, she’s sort of a cartoon when we get inside her head so I feel unqualified to assess how people react to her. 
 

Arya is more difficult for me. I find her arc overwhelmingly sad. I think I would find it equally sad if it was Bran…or, to be fair maybe not as much, but that’s because Bran was never amongst my favourite characters unlike Arya. But she’s a child soldier…sad enough…but more, a child assassin. To me JH was never admirable, always an assassin or, as I learned more, an active member of a death cult. Arya going even part way down that road…and even, sad lol, being too stab happy for said death cult…is nothing if not tragic.
 

Are there kinds of growth in that arc? I guess, but imo we’re straying towards ‘slaves learned valuable skills!’ there. Will the skills she learns as a byproduct of being in the death cult be brought to bear against characters I dislike? Almost certainly. But I care about their fates less than I care about hers, mostly, so for me that doesn’t move the needle much. But I can’t swear I would feel exactly the same if Arya were Eyron or w/e. I mean I truly don’t think that was a factor, but unconsciousness gets its name for a reason, so who can be certain? 
 

edit: forgot Danny. To me she looms so large in the text that there are tons of motivations for perceiving her different ways, but certainly sexism is amongst them. 

*I realize that probably even George himself could not narrow this down to a single moment/chapter.

Edited July 26, 2023 by James Arryn

[sifth]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

By saving the city from Stannis who would have like, torched it
 

They story of Tysha is extremely sad and left Tyrion with multiple scars. In Volantis he wanted to die, kinslaying and his murder of Shae snapped him and he begged for her to become a lord of Westeros, which is a pretty dark off coloring joke, but thats him. Is having violent sex with a drugged out prostitute rape? Idk, its bad tho, but its not like Gregor shit

Who pledged to expose him and his girlfriend which could have resulted in both of their deaths.

Or to the rejuvenation of his mountain folk who are people as well. And yea middle ages warfare was harsh, but thats every character.

Wrong place wrong time. And shes not exactly an innocent bystander anyway

In book 5 hes borderline insane. The crossbow goes off like a machine gun, but he saves Aegon Penny and Jorah, with the latter two trying to kill him. Especially the saving Jorah part, he doesnt even know why he did it (Aegon he says for the scheme, but thats probably bullshit and Penny was just, he cant just leave her there for dead) but its because hes good folk who like many folk, has demons

He treated Bronn so well he contemplated fighting Gregor free of charge and then named his son after him, when Tyrions mountain folk were thrown away from KL he was disgusted by their treatment noting that these "wildlings" fought with their lives to save KL. He cares.

Pretty sure Stannis wasn’t planning to burn Kings Land down.

[Craving Peaches]

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

Pretty sure Stannis wasn’t planning to burn Kings Land down.

Accidents happen though. Those pesky fire worshippers have lax health and safety, one stray spark and those wildfire caches go off...

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Fairly recently learned that the first 18 chapters were submitted (and remained unchanged) alongside that regrettable outline, the one where Sansa is pretty clearly a villain from the Stark POV. So that’s how GRRM viewed her at least part way through book 1, though for him villain does not necessarily mean unsympathetic. I am now extremely interested in finding out exactly when* the garden grew in another direction, but meantime it’s imo not helping the argument to conclude that ONLY sexism could frame her book 1 actions as betrayal/villainous from the Stark pov. 
 

Cat I think actually suffers some from being ~ bright, perceptive and reasonable (outside Jon) while also being subject to bias and error. If her internal POV played like Cersei’s she would imo be less contentious. But because she is so reasonable and perceptive we are brought along, and when she proves fallible some feel betrayed. But yea, sexism is also at play. 

Cersei…eh, she’s sort of a cartoon when we get inside her head so I feel unqualified to assess how people react to her. 
 

Arya is more difficult for me. I find her arc overwhelmingly sad. I think I would find it equally sad if it was Bran…or, to be fair maybe not as much, but that’s because Bran was never amongst my favourite characters unlike Arya. But she’s a child soldier…sad enough…but more, a child assassin. To me JH was never admirable, always an assassin or, as I learned more, an active member of a death cult. Arya going even part way down that road…and even, sad lol, being too stab happy for said death cult…is nothing if not tragic.
 

Are there kinds of growth in that arc? I guess, but imo we’re straying towards ‘slaves learned valuable skills!’ there. Will the skills she learns as a byproduct of being in the death cult be brought to bear against characters I dislike? Almost certainly. But I care about their fates less than I care about hers, mostly, so for me that doesn’t move the needle much. But I can’t swear I would feel exactly the same if Arya were Eyron or w/e. I mean I truly don’t think that was a factor, but unconsciousness gets its name for a reason, so who can be certain? 
 

edit: forgot Danny. To me she looms so large in the text that there are tons of motivations for perceiving her different ways, but certainly sexism is amongst them. 

*I realize that probably even George himself could not narrow this down to a single moment/chapter.

Arya will survive the series, but as what?

If she finished as some professional torture technician, with dead fish eyes, that would be a bleak ending.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is having violent sex with a drugged out prostitute rape? Idk, its bad tho, but its not like Gregor shit

Yes, it is. I can't believe I have to explain this..but a slave has no choice in what they are doing. The prostitute does not want to have sex with him. When someone doesn't want to have sex with you, and then you have sex with them, that is called rape. This isn't complicated and I shouldn't have to explain this. 

Not being straight up evil doesn't make you...not a gray character. Raping people is bad. Very bad. 

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, it is. I can't believe I have to explain this..but a slave has no choice in what they are doing. The prostitute does not want to have sex with him. When someone doesn't want to have sex with you, and then you have sex with them, that is called rape. This isn't complicated and I shouldn't have to explain this. 

Not being straight up evil doesn't make you...not a gray character. Raping people is bad. Very bad. 

Yes, that is clear-cut rape.  The scene is revolting.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ah yes, raping women, only completely honorable people don't do that, right? (I am being sarcastic). Oh and don't forget murdering people (He murdered a bard who wanted to sing about Shae off the top of my head). He armed the mountain clans because Lysa Arryn imprisoned him which led to widespread death..of small folks, not Lysa Arryn. His murder of Shae in the books is far from strait forward (in the show, she attacks him, but in the book she begs him not to do it). 

 

I recall that bard being a jerk and Tyrion trying to pay him to keep his silence, before killing him. It was only after Symon Silver Tongue rejected Tyrion's offer and threatens to reveal what he knows about Shae to Cersei and Tywin, that Tyrion chooses to kill him. The whole thing is a lot more complicated, than you're making it out to be.

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ah yes, raping women, only completely honorable people don't do that, right? (I am being sarcastic). Oh and don't forget murdering people (He murdered a bard who wanted to sing about Shae off the top of my head). He armed the mountain clans because Lysa Arryn imprisoned him which led to widespread death..of small folks, not Lysa Arryn. His murder of Shae in the books is far from strait forward (in the show, she attacks him, but in the book she begs him not to do it). 

 

To be honest, Tyrion's other option was dying at the hands of mountain clans because Lysa didn't give him a proper escort.

He also had good reason to think that the Arryns will be antagonistic to him and his house. Almost everybody expected the Vale to enter the war on the Starks' side and if this happened, the mountain clans opposing them would have been a great boon.

[Frey family reunion]

Cat appears to be a very good wife, mother and daughter.  Her blind spot exists because she's very protective of her children.  Which is why she can be so cruel to Jon.  She sees Jon as a threat to her children's inheritence.  It's telling that the only person that Eddard ever explicitely worries about being a threat to Jon is Cat.

I also think Cat gets a bum rap for starting the war.  Cat didn't set out to kidnap Tyrion.  She was hoping that he wouldn't notice her at the inn.  Now granted when he did notice her, she acted rashly.  And you can tell she started to second guess herself during their journey to the Eyrie.  But in for a penny.

It was clearly Robb who started the war and from what I recall, Cat wasn't pushing for war.  She just wanted to get her daughters back.

[Frey family reunion]

Sansa and Arya are more alike than they (or most readers) want to admit.  Neither are bad people, they are just both very spoiled.  No one really considers Arya spoiled because her interests are so far outside the interests of what we consider the typical spoiled rich girl.  But if you think about it, Arya does what she likes perhaps moreso than her sister Sansa.  

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

To be honest, Tyrion's other option was dying at the hands of mountain clans because Lysa didn't give him a proper escort.

He also had good reason to think that the Arryns will be antagonistic to him and his house. Almost everybody expected the Vale to enter the war on the Starks' side and if this happened, the mountain clans opposing them would have been a great boon.

Tyrion’s motivations are clear - to reduce the Vale to a smoking wasteland is how he puts it.

Edited July 26, 2023 by SeanF

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

I recall that bard being a jerk and Tyrion trying to pay him to keep his silence, before killing him. It was only after Symon Silver Tongue rejected Tyrion's offer and threatens to reveal what he knows about Shae to Cersei and Tywin, that Tyrion chooses to kill him. The whole thing is a lot more complicated, than you're making it out to be.

12 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

To be honest, Tyrion's other option was dying at the hands of mountain clans because Lysa didn't give him a proper escort.

He also had good reason to think that the Arryns will be antagonistic to him and his house. Almost everybody expected the Vale to enter the war on the Starks' side and if this happened, the mountain clans opposing them would have been a great boon.

Both of y'all, I mostly listed these things to point out Tyrion is a gray character. What do you think "gray character" means? To me in means somewhere in the middle, i.e. "things being complicated" like sifth said, or arming mountain clans...who aren't really doing anything bad to the Arryns and instead random travelers. The Arryns and other high lords will normally be able to ride in force...random travelers...cannot. This is not wholly unlike how Tywin fights wars....after all Tyrion is his son..a.nd yes, it's gray. People who are ..well it feels weird to say white...lets...say "light" care about these things more, that is WHY Tyrion is called gray well before book 5 where he starts to do straight up evil crap. What exactly do you'll think gray means? The author himself called Tyrion gray..so what exactly is GRRM calling him gray for? Obviously because we are meant to view these actions as morally questionable. Yes, it's complicated when you don't want to get caught with your personal escort...but also murdering someone is bad. You understand murdering someone is bad right? You understand many characters...wouldn't have murdered someone? Can you see Eddard or Jon Snow murdering him? Let's say a bard wants to tell the black brothers than Jon slept with Ygritte. do you think Jon would have murdered said bard? 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is having violent sex with a drugged out prostitute rape?

Yes because no consent. Even by standards of prostitutes in Westeros. Poor girl was a slave, they didn't even have a common language. Not to mention she was probably whipped for the mess Tyrion made.

[Frey family reunion]

13 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Can you see Eddard or Jon Snow murdering him?

When Jon or Eddard murder someone, they call it an execution, which I guess makes it legal.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Both of y'all, I mostly listed these things to point out Tyrion is a gray character. What do you think "gray character" means? To me in means somewhere in the middle, i.e. "things being complicated" like sifth said, or arming mountain clans...who aren't really doing anything bad to the Arryns and instead random travelers. The Arryns and other high lords will normally be able to ride in force...random travelers...cannot. This is not wholly unlike how Tywin fights wars....after all Tyrion is his son..a.nd yes, it's gray. People who are ..well it feels weird to say white...lets...say "light" care about these things more, that is WHY Tyrion is called gray well before book 5 where he starts to do straight up evil crap. What exactly do you'll think gray means? The author himself called Tyrion gray..so what exactly is GRRM calling him gray for? Obviously because we are meant to view these actions as morally questionable. Yes, it's complicated when you don't want to get caught with your personal escort...but also murdering someone is bad. You understand murdering someone is bad right? You understand many characters...wouldn't have murdered someone? Can you see Eddard or Jon Snow murdering him? Let's say a bard wants to tell the black brothers than Jon slept with Ygritte. do you think Jon would have murdered said bard? 

Jon is not a boy scout.  Jon would kill a man who tried to blackmail him.

On rereads, it becomes clear that Jon is quite ruthless.

He has the killer instinct that Ned lacked.

That doesn’t make Jon evil.  Good leaders need the killer instinct.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One of the reasons why Sarah Hess received hate was how after Aegon raped that servant girl on HOTD (which he clearly believed was consensual), she made a comment asking if that really makes Aegon a villain, since other people are forgiven for murder and other crimes. And to be clear, this is a genuine question people have been puzzled by: why are murderers forgiven but not rapists? I think it makes more sense if you think of rape as a form of torture—most of us would be more freaked out to learn that the guy sitting next to us on the subway once cut open a live cat than that he committed murder, for instance. But having a character commit rape is one of the most surefire ways of solidifying their place as a villain in the audience’s mind. Tyrion is actually a rare exception—many people still like him despite what he’s done.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the reasons why Sarah Hess received hate was how after Aegon raped that servant girl on HOTD (which he clearly believed was consensual), she made a comment asking if that really makes Aegon a villain, since other people are forgiven for murder and other crimes. And to be clear, this is a genuine question people have been puzzled by: why are murderers forgiven but not rapists? I think it makes more sense if you think of rape as a form of torture—most of us would be more freaked out to learn that the guy sitting next to us on the subway once cut open a live cat than that he committed murder, for instance. But having a character commit rape is one of the most surefire ways of solidifying their place as a villain in the audience’s mind. Tyrion is actually a rare exception—many people still like him despite what he’s done.

Rape can never be excused.  It is always callous.

Murder can be.  It can be downgraded to manslaughter, due to provocation of loss of control.  One can commit murder to protect or avenge others, but that can never be an excuse for rape.  And excessive violence, in response to wrongs suffered, may strictly speaking, be murder, but it’s still hard to condemn.

[James Arryn]

Definitely not speaking for everyone, but as someone who was sexually assaulted, I can 100% say that, for me, bad as it was I’m very happy it wasn’t my murder. Please don’t interpret this as me saying this is how people/you should or even generally do feel about it, but for me personally it’s a very clear distinction. 
 

edit: I just realized I don’t know exactly why we’re discussing this…just doing a quick catch-up read…so if I have missed some important context I apologize. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by James Arryn