Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

Another unpopular opinion that I have is that Arys is a mostly decent guy by Westerosi standards. He makes a lot of dumb choices though.

Arys Oakheart seemed like a decent guy. I mean he did technically beat Sansa, but even she admits he hated doing it and even stood up to Joff about it at one point. I think Sansa also mentions he did it lightly, unlike the others. I honestly think he only did it, because he was scared Joff would kill him, if he didn't.

[Odej]

5 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

He grew up in privilege, but the father despised him and sister always tried to murder him

 

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I thought that she just tried to twist it off and that was a one time thing, although she did bully him.

 

16 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I'm not sure she even tried to pull it off; she was just trying to hurt him and make him cry.

If she were going to try to mutilate him, doing it in front of not only Jaime but their Martell guests doesn't seem sensible, even by her standards

I agree that Cersei really didn't literally try to kill Tyrion when he was little, but her hurting him like she did on the Martell visit wasn't an isolated case.

"King Baelor imprisoned his own sisters, whose only crime was being beautiful. The first time Cersei heard that tale, she had gone to Tyrion’s nursery and pinched the little monster till he cried." AFFC

This episode makes me believe that Cersei hurt Tyrion quite often, not only because she blamed him for her mother's death, but she also used him as a scapegoat for any bad feelings or bad things that afflicted her. 

This probably stopped while Tyrion was growing up and could blame her, but I totally believe it was a thing.

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Arys Oakheart seemed like a decent guy. I mean he did technically beat Sansa, but even she admits he hated doing it and even stood up to Joff about it at one point. I think Sansa also mentions he did it lightly, unlike the others. I honestly think he only did it, because he was scared Joff would kill him, if he didn't.

Yes. She says that he was always courteous, that he did it as gently as he possibly could and I believe he protested once. In his Dornish chapters, he's extremely grateful to be away from Joffrey.

5 hours ago, Odej said:

I agree that Cersei really didn't literally try to kill Tyrion when he was little, but her hurting him like she did on the Martell visit wasn't an isolated case.

"King Baelor imprisoned his own sisters, whose only crime was being beautiful. The first time Cersei heard that tale, she had gone to Tyrion’s nursery and pinched the little monster till he cried." AFFC

This episode makes me believe that Cersei hurt Tyrion quite often, not only because she blamed him for her mother's death, but she also used him as a scapegoat for any bad feelings or bad things that afflicted her. 

This probably stopped while Tyrion was growing up and could blame her, but I totally believe it was a thing.

Yes. That's the moment that I was thinking of when I said Cersei bullied him. Do we get any great detail on how Cersei felt about her mother? For some reason, I vaguely recall her resenting her mother for separating her from Jaime.

Another unpopular opinion. Catelyn's deal with Walder Frey was a mostly good one. All except for the Arya match were reasonable. Marrying a Frey isn't far beneath a Stark. Especially once Robb became the King of the North and Riverlands. Taking his son as squires and fostering two kids that could potentially be hostages was alright too. Arya's match was beneath her, but she was missing and I'm not convinced that she'd even go through with it 6 years later.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

26 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Another unpopular opinion. Catelyn's deal with Walder Frey was a mostly good one. All except for the Arya match were reasonable. Marrying a Frey isn't far beneath a Stark. Especially once Robb became the King of the North and Riverlands. Taking his son as squires and fostering two kids that could potentially be hostages was alright too. Arya's match was beneath her, but she was missing and I'm not convinced that she'd even go through with it 6 years later.

If I were Cat, I would of had Robb and Roslin get hitched, when he was at The Twins, just to make sure Walder stayed in line.

Edited August 27, 2023 by sifth

[Lee-Sensei]

46 minutes ago, sifth said:

If I were Cat, I would of had Robb and Roslin get hitched, when he was at The Twins, just to make sure Walder stayed in line.

To be fair, he was in a hurry. But he should have had it done after lifting the siege on Riverrun and smashing Jaime's army. Without the Red Wedding, he might have even been able to make a resurgence once the Ironborn had invaded the Reach, Tywin was dead and Cersei was making a mess in Kings Landing. The Red Wedding was specifically about revenge for Robb spitting on their family (I know it's more complicated than that and I have a lot of sympathy for Robb here). The Frey's, like the Tyrell's, were looking to get prestige more than anything. If they married royalty, no one would be able to look down on them again. Most importantly, Robb, Catelyn and his bannermen would still be alive. And I'm not sure Roose would have it in him to betray Robb openly if the Frey's aren't on his side.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

To be fair, he was in a hurry. But he should have had it done after lifting the siege on Riverrun and smashing Jaime's army. Without the Red Wedding, he might have even been able to make a resurgence once the Ironborn had invaded the Reach, Tywin was dead and Cersei was making a mess in Kings Landing. The Red Wedding was specifically about revenge for Robb spitting on their family (I know it's more complicated than that and I have a lot of sympathy for Robb here). The Frey's, like the Tyrell's, were looking to get prestige more than anything. If they married royalty, no one would be able to look down on them again. Most importantly, Robb, Catelyn and his bannermen would still be alive. And I'm not sure Roose would have it in him to betray Robb openly if the Frey's aren't on his side.

I think Walder and Roose would have turned, once they heard the outcome of the Blackwater.

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think Walder and Roose would have turned, once they heard the outcome of the Blackwater.

I don't think Walder would, if Robb was married to his daughter. As much as I hate Walder, the guy does believe in taking care of his own. It's possibly his only redeeming quality.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think Walder and Roose would have turned, once they heard the outcome of the Blackwater.

Maybe, but there'd be no Red Wedding and I doubt Walder would take up arms against the Starks if Robb was married to his daughter.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

An unpopular opinion, but Jaime not telling anyone about the wildfire plot was completely and utterly stupid. How is this guy moving on with his life knowing that a potential ticking time bomb beneath the city can go off at any time? 
 

I want to believe that he told someone who had it dealt with. I want to believe he’ll reveal that he did tell someone to clear the caches safely. Jaime might’ve been an idiot but I can’t see him being so moronic as not doing anything about the caches

[Alester Florent]

49 minutes ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

An unpopular opinion, but Jaime not telling anyone about the wildfire plot was completely and utterly stupid. How is this guy moving on with his life knowing that a potential ticking time bomb beneath the city can go off at any time? 
 

I want to believe that he told someone who had it dealt with. I want to believe he’ll reveal that he did tell someone to clear the caches safely. Jaime might’ve been an idiot but I can’t see him being so moronic as not doing anything about the caches

I think a problem was that nobody knew where the caches were except the pyromancers, and he didn't trust the pyromancers to clear them up and not just light them because of their loyalties to Aerys.

He probably wasn't happy about Robert having them either. And to organise a search to track down the caches would draw attention to them and lead to not just Robert, but all sorts of people, finding and raiding caches, letting it fall into even wronger hands than the pyromancers'.

If there's a weapon you think is too terrible to use hidden under the city, the safest thing to do may be to just leave them hidden, so long as nobody knows they're there.

We know that at least some caches survive, because they find some when Tyrion is Hand.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

An unpopular opinion, but Jaime not telling anyone about the wildfire plot was completely and utterly stupid. How is this guy moving on with his life knowing that a potential ticking time bomb beneath the city can go off at any time? 
 

I want to believe that he told someone who had it dealt with. I want to believe he’ll reveal that he did tell someone to clear the caches safely. Jaime might’ve been an idiot but I can’t see him being so moronic as not doing anything about the caches

It feels like a retcon. Jamie was willing to stay in a city, that could very easily blow up, because he refused to tell anyone about a bomb the mad king planted.

[KingAerys_II]

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Maybe, but there'd be no Red Wedding and I doubt Walder would take up arms against the Starks if Robb was married to his daughter.

Who cares? Cat died and now we have Lady Stoneheart, that's good, Brotherhood without banners + Nimerya wolf pack and the Lannister army in the Riverlands is doomed. 

 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:45 PM, sifth said:

Penny is my least favorite character in the series and easily the worst part of Tyrion’s arc.

I think she's cute hehe. I would be friend with her irl. (It would absolutely be annoying if someone kept making unwanted advances towards you though.) But I think she's an interesting addition to Tyrion's chapters, especially when I remember what he told Jon way back in the very first book. 

Quote

"Had I been born a peasant, they might have left me out to die, or sold me to some slaver’s grotesquerie. Alas, I was born a Lannister of Casterly Rock, and the grotesqueries are all the poorer. Things are expected of me."

Penny has equal reason to be angry and vengeful, like Tyrion. Her own losses and experiences are no less painful, but she finds happiness regardless. As much as he gets frustrated with her, he seems to admire her resilience. She's a stark contrast to the poor picture he painted for Jon. The poor, pitiful dwarf either being left to die, or sold into slavery. And I don't blame Tyrion for originally holding this mindset as it's probably another of his father's narcissistic schemes to make him feel isolated and dependent. "You're lucky I didn't leave you out to die, because that's what most people do to their dwarf children. Now go clean the sewers." It's not totally false though, as many dwarves probably are left to die. But there are many dwarves who do live meaningful lives, lives far happier than Tyrion's.

 

On 8/26/2023 at 5:19 PM, Tyrosh Lannister said:

I hope her arc ends in twow

I don't! Although your wish may come true. Penny seems to be exactly what he needed, and what he may still need in the near future. His inner conflicts with her behavior and trusting nature are what make his ADWD chapters interesting to me. This is more than just Tyrion having to put up with a fellow dwarf, although a much younger one. This is Tyrion finding some empathy through her (albeit very very little), but also Tyrion both pitying and being offended by her reliance on her original means of survival. And it's majorly hypocritical of him, since he is doing the exact same thing.

Quote

Sometimes he envied the girl all her pretty little dreams. She reminded him of Sansa Stark, the child bride he had wed and lost. Despite the horrors Penny had suffered, she remained somehow trusting. She should know better. She is older than Sansa. And she’s a dwarf. She acts as if she has forgotten that, as if she were highborn and fair to look upon, instead of a slave in a grotesquerie. At night Tyrion would oft hear her praying. A waste of words. If there are gods to listen, they are monstrous gods who torment us for their sport. Who else would make a world like this, so full of bondage, blood, and pain? Who else would shape us as they have?  Sometimes he wanted to slap her, shake her, scream at her, anything to wake her from her dreams. No one is going to save us, he wanted to scream at her. The worst is yet to come. -Tyrion XI ADWD

This is proof that Tyrion still has little to no understanding of people's lives outside of his own. How else is Penny supposed to act? Her father bought his own freedom, and decided to protect his family the best he knew how, by entertaining "the big people". Tyrion criticizes him for that, but never considers the lack of resources and power that Penny's father had. Was he supposed to pull bags of gold out of his ass and build a place of major influence for his family? Was he supposed to challenge the system? Is Penny supposed to challenge the system? Tyrion certainly hasn't, and he had the means to (to an extent). So Penny relies on making the best of her situation because it's all she knows, and he treats it like it's a crime.

Tyrion, on the other hand, still relies on his Lannister roots. It's understandable and more than fair that he would use his social status as a way to get them out of their current situation, but he's reliant on it for far more than just that. He's thousands of miles from home, he is enslaved, but is still disgusted when he is forced to "lower himself" to preform. He's a lion, he's a Lannister. He'll begrudgingly go along with it, but he'll always turn back to the very thing that brought so much trauma and pain into his own life. So all of his frustration with Penny is coming from his own pride, and it's hypocritical. His family has treated him like shit, yet he still relies on his Lannister roots in order to survive. Is that somehow more acceptable than Penny's survival instincts? He's been abused, mocked, accused of murder, forced into a marriage he did not want, murdered his father (not that I blame him), he has been enslaved, and he's still a prisoner to his own pride and social status.

It's possible that his drive for vengeance or personal interests gets Penny killed. That's my assumption anyway. he's so back and forth between pity and contempt with her, but I have a feeling she'll end up as collateral damage to his own game. 

Quote

That night he dreamed that he was back in King’s Landing again, a crossbow in his hand. “Wherever whores go,” Lord Tywin said, but when Tyrion’s finger clenched and the bowstring thrummed, it was Penny with the quarrel buried in her belly. -Tyrion IX ADWD

Sorry for the rambling, these are just reasons why I find Penny's inclusion to be interesting.

[csuszka1948]

I think Jaime was simply not aware of the danger the wildfire poses long-term - he thought it will become 'inactive' after a year or two, not that it gets more dangerous over time.

[Lee-Sensei]

8 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Who cares? Cat died and now we have Lady Stoneheart, that's good, Brotherhood without banners + Nimerya wolf pack and the Lannister army in the Riverlands is doomed. 

Robb probably, since it's the reason that he was killed.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robb probably, since it's the reason that he was killed.

Plus all of his men who were killed. Edmure as well and the Greatjon, since they're now prisoners.

[Tradecraft]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:09 AM, maesternewton said:

GRRM is on record stating that Stannis will burn Shireen. 

This is another reference to Greek mythology. 

Agamemnon Burns his daughter for a safe journey in the Illiad. 

 

His wife has him killed for it when he returns. 

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

16 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I think a problem was that nobody knew where the caches were except the pyromancers, and he didn't trust the pyromancers to clear them up and not just light them because of their loyalties to Aerys.

He probably wasn't happy about Robert having them either. And to organise a search to track down the caches would draw attention to them and lead to not just Robert, but all sorts of people, finding and raiding caches, letting it fall into even wronger hands than the pyromancers'.

If there's a weapon you think is too terrible to use hidden under the city, the safest thing to do may be to just leave them hidden, so long as nobody knows they're there.

We know that at least some caches survive, because they find some when Tyrion is Hand.

14 hours ago, sifth said:

It feels like a retcon. Jamie was willing to stay in a city, that could very easily blow up, because he refused to tell anyone about a bomb the mad king planted.

Not sure if I can buy all of this. I can't see Jaime willing to move on for several years knowing those caches can blow up one day and cause mayhem for everyone. He killed Aerys to prevent the caches from blowing up, so he definitely would want to make sure they're gone. The risk is too much. 

Because his oath demand he keep secrets, he'll only tell Robert who in turn will secretly have the caches removed. But only because Jaime was already hated on for breaking his oath and killing Aerys that Jaime doesn't want to risk further opprobrium by blurting out the truth.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

This is another reference to Greek mythology. 

Agamemnon Burns his daughter for a safe journey in the Illiad. 

His wife has him killed for it when he returns. 

That's probably the most famous version, but there were other daughter sacrificing stories too in Greek/Roman mythology iirc.

1 hour ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Not sure if I can buy all of this. I can't see Jaime willing to move on for several years knowing those caches can blow up one day and cause mayhem for everyone. He killed Aerys to prevent the caches from blowing up, so he definitely would want to make sure they're gone. The risk is too much. 

Because his oath demand he keep secrets, he'll only tell Robert who in turn will secretly have the caches removed. But only because Jaime was already hated on for breaking his oath and killing Aerys that Jaime doesn't want to risk further opprobrium by blurting out the truth.

Does Jaime really care that much about keeping his oaths after killing Aerys and before meeting Brienne? It's possible that he just doesn't know a lot about wildfire.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Does Jaime really care that much about keeping his oaths after killing Aerys and before meeting Brienne? It's possible that he just doesn't know a lot about wildfire.

If Aerys put that many caches, Jaime knows what that means. And he should've done more about it than simply kill the king.

Also as for oaths Jaime was most likely too scared to break another part of the oath after the king-killing.