Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[Alester Florent]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

The physical reaction to what was done to Elia and her children is and will always make seethe with hatred and make me team Targaryens in Robert’s Rebellion. The rebels dying the way they did is poetic and just(except Ned who is my favorite character) they all deserved their betrayals and deaths.  

What, exactly, did Rickard Stark do to deserve being burned alive?

[KingAerys_II]

Jon Arryn was a great Hand of the King, the arranged marriage was important, Lannisters were the wealthiest and Tywin was a skilled Commander. 

It's not easy to convince other lords you are the king, when in Westeros the great lords supported the crown because of dragons and descendants of the last dragonlords. 

Robert kept the throne thanks to the support of the Riverlands, Westerland, Stormlands, the Vale and the North. 

He had the support of the Riverlands and the North thanks to the friendship with Lord Stark, Renly was "friend" of Tyrells and plotted to replace Cersei, the only Kingdoms that clearly rejected Robert, we're the Iron Islands and Dorne. Dorne had no chances of victory, Tywin was not a merciful Commander

[The Wolves]

6 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

What, exactly, did Rickard Stark do to deserve being burned alive?

Rickard Stark wasn’t a rebel. 
 

Arryn, Robert, Ned, Tully, and Tywin are the rebels. 
 

Rickard and Brandon Stark didn’t deserve their deaths or Arryns heir. Aerys was wrong to kill the highborns lords. 
 

But just because Aerys was wrong it’s doesn’t take away the fact what the rebels did and what atrocities they allowed to happen. 

[KingAerys_II]

Rhaegar died in battle, Aerys deserved to die, Viserys "the Beggar King" deserved his fate. 

It's true Tywin did atrocities, but Ned wanted him to pay for that. 

Jon, Ned and Barristan always stopped Robert to do "things". 

Aerys was clearly the worst king in the history of Westeros, I think Tyrion is wrong to compare Joffrey to him

[Alester Florent]

17 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Rhaegar died in battle, Aerys deserved to die, Viserys "the Beggar King" deserved his fate. 

It's true Tywin did atrocities, but Ned wanted him to pay for that. 

Jon, Ned and Barristan always stopped Robert to do "things". 

Aerys was clearly the worst king in the history of Westeros, I think Tyrion is wrong to compare Joffrey to him

Joffrey was shaping up to be just as bad, if not worse. At least Aerys in his youth was alright, if a little unstable. Joffrey was malicious and sadistic from the outset of his reign.

[SaffronLady]

21 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Joffrey was shaping up to be just as bad, if not worse. At least Aerys in his youth was alright, if a little unstable. Joffrey was malicious and sadistic from the outset of his reign.

I like to envision Ramsay as a stand-in for a late-teen/early adult Joffrey.

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Joffrey was shaping up to be just as bad, if not worse. At least Aerys in his youth was alright, if a little unstable. Joffrey was malicious and sadistic from the outset of his reign.

I disagree, Aerys enjoyed abusing his wife after hearing the screams of the burned people, he was obsessed by the burning at the stake as method of execution, he ordered the burning of King's Landing as final act, he was responsible for the death of Elia and her children, because he used them as hostages to blackmail Dorne and his revenge after Duskendale thing was shocking

He was as bad as Ramsay, Tyrion clearly tried to trigger Jaime, he told him about Cersei and Moonboy too, that's clearly fake (I hope) 

Edited August 23, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Kal-L]

All those who bent the knees to Robert (before the Trident) are as responsible for what happened to Elia and her children - looking at you Eddard Stark -, and being naive af doesn't absolve you of sh*t. In fact naive fools are the most dangerous people because they never measured the consequences of their acts, and are satisfied into hiding afterwards behind their so-called honor to distance themselves from what they created. Ned crying over the crime of Tywin's men will never change the horrible fate of Elia of Dorne and her children. Now sure, it probably help him sleeping well at night thinking he was the better man while he wasn't (he was just an idiot).

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The physical reaction to what was done to Elia and her children is and will always make seethe with hatred and make me team Targaryens in Robert’s Rebellion. The rebels dying the way they did is poetic and just(except Ned who is my favorite character) they all deserved their betrayals and deaths.  

While the ending of the Rebellion clearly showed that Robert didn't have standard, I see the success of the rebellion as statement for the Targ's madness. These fools had such a high opinion of themselves that they f*cked with the wrong people at the worst time. Don't forget that Aerys had threaten the Martells for them to support Rhaegar with 10 000 spears ! The Prince and his army got literally crushed while having a slight advantage in numbers, what kind of slaughter would it have been if Dorne hadn't broken under the threats of the king...

Edited August 23, 2023 by Kal-L

[SaffronLady]

17 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

All those who bent the knees to Robert (before the Trident) are as responsible for what happened to Elia and her children - looking at you Eddard Stark

That's quite the claim. So Tywin attempting to get all cozy with STAB makes STAB responsible for his actions?

[The Wolves]

4 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

All those who bent the knees to Robert (before the Trident) are as responsible for what happened to Elia and her children - looking at you Eddard Stark -, and being naive af doesn't absolve you of sh*t. In fact naive fools are the most dangerous people because they never measured the consequences of their acts, and are satisfied into hiding afterwards behind their so-called honor to distance themselves from what they created. Ned crying over the crime of Tywin's men will never change the horrible fate of Elia of Dorne and her children. Now sure, it probably help him sleeping well at night thinking he was the better man while he wasn't (he was just an idiot).

While the ending of the Rebellion clearly showed that Robert didn't have standard, I see the success of the rebellion as statement for the Targ's madness. These fools had such a high opinion of themselves that they f*cked with the wrong people at the worst time. Don't forget that Aerys had threaten the Martells for them to support Rhaegar with 10 000 spears ! The Prince and his army got literally crushed while having a slight advantage in numbers, what kind of slaughter would it have been if Dorne hadn't broken under the threats of the king...

Ned was an idiot. I don’t absolve him in the part he played in Rober’s Rebellion. From waging war when he could have and should have stayed in the North to declaring that worthless, idiot, useless drunk king is all idiot decisions. 
 

And you’re right, everyone who declared Robert king on the Trident is responsible for Elia and her children’s deaths. I’ll also say they have some responsibility in TWOT5Ks also. 
 

Also the Targaryens are no different from any other narcissistic lord or king that’s been in Westeros. Tywin’s high opinion of himself and family is higher than any Targs we’ve met in the main story and historically. The Targaryens, Baratheons, Lannisters, Hightowers, Tullys, Freys, Boltons, Martells, Starks, Greyjoys, Marbrands, Arryns, Royce, Tyrells, Valaryons, Farwynd, Eastermont, Dayne, etc….. are all the same lords and kings who’ve thought highly of themselves. The Targaryens didn’t deserve that fall more than any other great house who’ve raped, murdered, tortured, attack, stolen, terrorized, unleashed war and then some. 
 

Robert, Arryn, and Ned in their arrogance thought that they could do better and did worse. 

[The Wolves]

9 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

That's quite the claim. So Tywin attempting to get all cozy with STAB makes STAB responsible for his actions?

Yep. 
 

When you not only deny those innocents justice as King, than dehumanize and finally reward their murderers for that horrific deed then yeah you are responsible. 

[SeanF]

Ned, Jon, and Robert had the right to resist a king who would murder them on a whim.

Innocents would die, for sure, but Aerys should never have called for their heads.

[SaffronLady]

16 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Yep. 
 

When you not only deny those innocents justice as King, than dehumanize and finally reward their murderers for that horrific deed then yeah you are responsible. 

So Ned Stark and Hoster Tully are responsible for the actions of Tywin Lannister, who was rewarded by Robert Baratheon through his government run by Jon Arryn. It makes ... sense?

No it doesn't, really.

[Angel Eyes]

Everything that people complain about in the show (logistics, subverting expectations, sudden bad things happening out of nowhere, unpleasant shifts in characters) is present in the books, just on a larger scale.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Angel Eyes

[Craving Peaches]

49 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Yep. 
 

When you not only deny those innocents justice as King, than dehumanize and finally reward their murderers for that horrific deed then yeah you are responsible. 

This makes no sense, Robert and Jon's and Ned's and Hoster's actions don't have a retroactive effect. You don't become responsible for something you didn't do just because you approve of it after it's happened. I approve of the construction of the Kelpies monument, doesn't mean I caused it to be built...

Edited August 23, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

All those who bent the knees to Robert (before the Trident) are as responsible for what happened to Elia and her children - looking at you Eddard Stark -

 

You're right, Ned should have just let Aerys cut off his head. That would have been the more reasonable thing to do.

[Kal-L]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

That's quite the claim. So Tywin attempting to get all cozy with STAB makes STAB responsible for his actions?

He attempted to get cozy with the new King of the Iron Throne that the STAB (including Lord Eddard Stark) alliance had elected, and whose position was threatened by the Targaryens.

Tywin and his monsters are guilty of their crimes, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking those who bent the knees to Robert (apparently based on his Targaryen's blood) didn't jeopardize the lives of the remaining Targaryens.

59 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Ned was an idiot. I don’t absolve him in the part he played in Rober’s Rebellion. From waging war when he could have and should have stayed in the North to declaring that worthless, idiot, useless drunk king is all idiot decisions. 

Hum what are you talking about ? Ned didn't fight the war for Robert, he did it to keep his heads and most of all for his family. To avenge his father and brother from the gruesome deaths they had suffered and for the sister who had disappeared. Now, sure as a Targs lover, you might have a problem with the Starks retaliating to the Targaryens's madness and entitlement, but out of all the stupid things he did, putting an end to the reign of these lunatic was definitely not one of those. In fact it is the best thing he did imo.

59 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Also the Targaryens are no different from any other narcissistic lord or king that’s been in Westeros.

I disagree but it doesn't matter anyway, they were the enemies of the Starks, they had to be dealt with accordingly.

59 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Tywin’s high opinion of himself and family is higher than any Targs we’ve met in the main story and historically.

Well actually not really, Tywin's absolute neediness to marry into the Targs is proof of his admiration towards the Dragonlords. Look at the way he was still throwing his daughter at Rhaegar in spite of all the humiliation he had suffered from Aerys, the man had no self-esteem when it comes to the Targs which is the reason why he kept eating so much sh*t from Aerys while begging for a marriage. Aerys merely saw him as the greedy servant he was.

59 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Robert, Arryn, and Ned in their arrogance thought that they could do better and did worse. 

They didn't do worse. The kingdom fell when they all died. During their living, the kingdom was at peace. 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Kal-L

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Everything that people complain about in the show (logistics, subverting expectations, sudden bad things happening out of nowhere, unpleasant shifts in characters) is present in the books, just on a larger scale.

Pardon my French, but this is utter bollocks. 

[SaffronLady]

12 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

Tywin and his monsters are guilty of their crimes, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking those who bent the knees to Robert (apparently based on his Targaryen's blood) didn't jeopardize the lives of the remaining Targaryens.

What ZVO reasoning is this? So because the remaining Targs jeopardized STAB, and when they could have just exiled them, Tywin killing them all suddenly puts all of STAB guilty of a crime they didn't even sanction?

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Pardon my French, but this is utter bollocks. 

Without going into the show with logistics, just look at King's Landing: A city of 500,000 people, which is stretching it by medieval standards (about the size of Constantinople c. 500 C.E.), primarily fed by food from the Reach no less than 500 miles away (Highgarden is 900 miles away), making it a big deal when Renly besieges King's Landing. This would require a rather large bureaucracy to organize, funding, distribution, as well as control over neighboring kingdoms, would it not? And yet it's shown that the Crown is rather hands-off in ruling. Unless most of the population subsists on each other...