Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[Gilbert Green]

23 hours ago, frenin said:

It makes absolutely zero sense how Daeron the Daring is considered a good guy. It's truly baffling.  He does three things in the war, burn soldiers, massacre civilians and refugees and die to a tent.

I thought that Daeron the Good was considered good.  And Daeron the Daring was merely considered daring.

[The Wolves]

Anyone who doesn’t think Rhaenyra shouldn’t have inherited the throne in book, book readers and even show watchers are misogynistic. That throne was hers and she and hers should have inherited it with out war, death, pain and horrors. 
 

Renly sucked, house Baratheon sucks and I’m glad they’re dying out. 
 

Anyone who blames Cersei for her role in TWOT5Ks but doesn’t give Jaime his fair share is misogynistic. 
 

A lot of characters are interchangeable. Their motivations and old grievances are petty.

 

Viserys Targaryen is one of the most sympathetic characters. He was horrible to Dany but life was so unfair to him. 
 

Lyanna did nothing wrong and Rhaegar’s only crime was leaving his wife to run away with Lyanna. 
 

I hope Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story. 
 

Cersei is a tedious POV character. Tyrion and Jaime are getting there. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

I do not remember a single Dany advisor who uncritically agrees with her,

Barristan disagrees a lot, so does Daario, Shavepate etc.

Barristan says the same lines repeatedly. Daario just says horribke things. The Green Grace is quite literalky her enemy. Hizdahr just says something about opening tbr Fighting pits. Her advisors are terrible. Even Skahaz, who I think could be a decent advisor always pushes ideas that are too brutal for Dany’s tastes. If he pulled back, she would actually do a lot of what he wants. Like compromise his ideals a bit before suggesting them. 

I guess I should say : Ser Jorah actualky says, “You should do this thing,” that Dany hasn’t considered yet. Everything her other advisors say is old news. Things already considered, Dany is the main person pushing new policy and she needs help. Dany wants to make Meereen work. I could see Ser Jorah giving her actual advice that could help that work. Her current advisors …don’t. Except Skahaz, who says horrific things that Dany doesn’t want to do. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

His advice, though is always to be more callous and cruel.

So is Skahaz’s. The seperation being he has a bit more restraint. Which I think makes it so Daenerys can actually consider his advice. He advised her to get Unsullied. She used that advice and then freed them and gained an army. I mean, just there…we have his advice being directly helpful to her. She is the leader, she makes the ultimate decisions, but having advisors who think differently than her (but with some restraint) and have at least some creative ideas, would be helpful to her. Again name one piece of advice Ser Barristan has given that has led to policy. Or Daario? Thr Green Grace’s advice did I guess (but I think she is working against Dany), and Skahaz’s advice did lead to the Brazen Beasts (in my opinion he is her best advisor currently though). 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Anyone who doesn’t think Rhaenyra shouldn’t have inherited the throne in book, book readers and even show watchers are misogynistic. That throne was hers and she and hers should have inherited it with out war, death, pain and horrors. 
 

Anyone who blames Cersei for her role in TWOT5Ks but doesn’t give Jaime his fair share is misogynistic. 

Oof. Listen, I think there is a ton of mysigony underneath the viewpoints of many users here, so don’t get me wrong. However, nah. Like just..nah. You can not be a sexist and have either of the above opinions.

1. I personally think Rhaenyra was obviously the rightful Queen and also that she won the war…like obviously won the war, yet people act like she didn’t even though her troops took the throne and put her son on the throne. However…people are complicated. You could not like Rhaenyra and not be a mysigonist. From my memory, she was not a particularly likeable person. A lot of people here (and in other forums) let personal dislike heavily influence how they feel about a character. People can not like a person who is a woman without then being sexist. I personally dislike Lysa Tully. Cause she is a horrible human being and her treatment of both her sister and niece in particular stuck out to me as reasons to dislike her strongly. 

2. Listen, I just gone done saying people were being to forgiving of Jaime in another post, lol. HOWEVER, I don’t think that makes them sexist. Like I said, people use personal dislike or personal like and then expand that to form opinions. They are often very biased toward and against characters based on these feelings. The people forgiving Jaime…like Jaime. The people attacking Cersei..don’t like Cersei. Many of those same people mig byt be biased for a certain other female character and against a different male character.

You get what I’m saying? You are taking one evidence and using it to form a …well prejudiced opinion about a whole group of people (probably based on your interaction with a few actually sexist people). Listen, I met plenty of sexist Cersei haters or Jaime supporters. I get it. I’ve seen it. My personal experience has led me to pre-stereotype Stannis-stans as being a bit cringe and incel-ey…however not all Stannis stans are like that. There are many that are reasonable and clearly not like the stereotype that I had subconsciously formed. 

I think generalizations like this honestly just give right-wingers more firepower. This is the kind of comments they use to act like we are just as bad as them. I don’t know. I just think what you are saying is ignoring the very real possibility of people just not liking two characters who are…not that likable and then being biased against them because of that dislike. Again, don’t get me wrong. People who hate Catelyn Tully are often sexists, and it would be easy to say “all Catelyn Tully haters are sexist”…but they aren’t. I’ve spoken to them. Many have reasons, non-sexist reasons, for disliking her. Yes, mysigony HEAVILY plays into how people feel about Raenyra, Cersei, and Catelyn. But not all. Not 100%. And talking about the underlying mysigony of the arguments = Great idea. Blythely calling everyone a mysigonist = Good way to make sure no one engages with you or will ever consider their own subconcious mysigony. 

[The Wolves]

58 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oof. Listen, I think there is a ton of mysigony underneath the viewpoints of many users here, so don’t get me wrong. However, nah. Like just..nah. You can not be a sexist and have either of the above opinions.

1. I personally think Rhaenyra was obviously the rightful Queen and also that she won the war…like obviously won the war, yet people act like she didn’t even though her troops took the throne and put her son on the throne. However…people are complicated. You could not like Rhaenyra and not be a mysigonist. From my memory, she was not a particularly likeable person. A lot of people here (and in other forums) let personal dislike heavily influence how they feel about a character. People can not like a person who is a woman without then being sexist. I personally dislike Lysa Tully. Cause she is a horrible human being and her treatment of both her sister and niece in particular stuck out to me as reasons to dislike her strongly. 

2. Listen, I just gone done saying people were being to forgiving of Jaime in another post, lol. HOWEVER, I don’t think that makes them sexist. Like I said, people use personal dislike or personal like and then expand that to form opinions. They are often very biased toward and against characters based on these feelings. The people forgiving Jaime…like Jaime. The people attacking Cersei..don’t like Cersei. Many of those same people mig byt be biased for a certain other female character and against a different male character.

You get what I’m saying? You are taking one evidence and using it to form a …well prejudiced opinion about a whole group of people (probably based on your interaction with a few actually sexist people). Listen, I met plenty of sexist Cersei haters or Jaime supporters. I get it. I’ve seen it. My personal experience has led me to pre-stereotype Stannis-stans as being a bit cringe and incel-ey…however not all Stannis stans are like that. There are many that are reasonable and clearly not like the stereotype that I had subconsciously formed. 

I think generalizations like this honestly just give right-wingers more firepower. This is the kind of comments they use to act like we are just as bad as them. I don’t know. I just think what you are saying is ignoring the very real possibility of people just not liking two characters who are…not that likable and then being biased against them because of that dislike. Again, don’t get me wrong. People who hate Catelyn Tully are often sexists, and it would be easy to say “all Catelyn Tully haters are sexist”…but they aren’t. I’ve spoken to them. Many have reasons, non-sexist reasons, for disliking her. Yes, mysigony HEAVILY plays into how people feel about Raenyra, Cersei, and Catelyn. But not all. Not 100%. And talking about the underlying mysigony of the arguments = Great idea. Blythely calling everyone a mysigonist = Good way to make sure no one engages with you or will ever consider their own subconcious mysigony. 

I’m not saying that people disliking Rhaenyra is misogynistic, I’m saying that the reasons people don’t think she deserves her throne is because of misogyny. Rhaenyra can be a very unlikable person and that’s fine that people don’t like her. 
 

Also Jaime and Cersei share equal blame for the war yet Cersei is always blamed and Jaime excused. I’ll go as far to say that Jaime is more to  blame than Cersei but that’s another discussion. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Barristan says the same lines repeatedly. Daario just says horribke things. The Green Grace is quite literalky her enemy. Hizdahr just says something about opening tbr Fighting pits. Her advisors are terrible. Even Skahaz, who I think could be a decent advisor always pushes ideas that are too brutal for Dany’s tastes. If he pulled back, she would actually do a lot of what he wants. Like compromise his ideals a bit before suggesting them. 

I guess I should say : Ser Jorah actualky says, “You should do this thing,” that Dany hasn’t considered yet. Everything her other advisors say is old news. Things already considered, Dany is the main person pushing new policy and she needs help. Dany wants to make Meereen work. I could see Ser Jorah giving her actual advice that could help that work. Her current advisors …don’t. Except Skahaz, who says horrific things that Dany doesn’t want to do. 

It’s more that Jorah’s advice is always to abandon the freedmen/sell children into brothels.  Skahaz is at least a supporter of the anti-slavery campaign.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Even Skahaz, who I think could be a decent advisor always pushes ideas that are too brutal for Dany’s tastes.

So are Jorah's tbf.

There's this meme i saw a while ago that sums Jorah and Dany perfectly

And honestly, if Jorah was in Mereen he'd tell her the same thing most of her advisors have been telling them to do, strike and strike hard against the masters... she didn't want to listen to that counsel, doubt she'd listen to Jorah.

Edited December 7, 2023 by frenin

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

I’m not saying that people disliking Rhaenyra is misogynistic, I’m saying that the reasons people don’t think she deserves her throne is because of misogyny. Rhaenyra can be a very unlikable person and that’s fine that people don’t like her. 
 

Also Jaime and Cersei share equal blame for the war yet Cersei is always blamed and Jaime excused. I’ll go as far to say that Jaime is more to  blame than Cersei but that’s another discussion. 

1st - Rhaenyra - I am sure their are legit non sexist arguments against her being queen, but I don’t honestly remember enough of thst story to comment. 

2nd - Jaime and Cersei though, I can comment. No. Jaime is not equally to blame for the war as Cersei and frankly I find it baffling to claim so. The war DOES NOT HAPPEN period if Joffrey is Robert’s son. That was Cersei’s decision, not Jaime’s. But on top of that, things that led to war, in order : 

Pre-Existing Condition Always Headed toward war - Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are not King Robert’s children. Cersei makes sure none of Robert’s children are born. Mostly on Cersei, but Jaime was involved. 

1. Jon Arryn is murdered. More importantly Lysa and Petyr pin it on the Lannisters. However, there is at least a suggestion from Grand Maester Pycelle that Cersei wanted Jon Arryn to die and so he made sure he died.

2. Bran is pushed out the window - Mostly on Jaime. 

3. Eddard Stark investigated what Jon Arryn investigated. Cersei begans (probably) to plot against him. 

4. Lysa tries to have Tyrion killed for reasons (why she decides to do this I have no clue). 

5. Tywin Lannister invades the Riverlands. 

6. Eddard idiotically tells Cersei his entire plan like an idiot. 

7. Cersei probably makes her move. We don’t know everything, but she may have spoken to Pycelle and Baelish in order to assure their loyalty againdt Eddard at this point. 

8. Cersei has Robert killed on a hunt (Jaime is uninvolved).

9. Renly is ready to make his move with Eddard, but is refused. Cersei was also planning a move against Renly in addition to Eddard. 

10. Cersei and Baelish and Pycelle make their move and take Eddard into custody. The kill all his men and try to capture his daughters as well. 

11. Robb invades? the Riverlands and captures Jaime Lannister. 

There are other steps after this, but the war has started at this point. Jaime pushing Bran was certainly a trigger toward war, however…if I blamed just onr person for the War of 5 Kings…it is Cersei Lannister. She orchestrated MOST of what happened in King’s Landing including murderinf the King and deposing thr rightful Lord Protector (as named in Robert’s will). You literally cannot be more responsible for a war then KILLING HE KING and DEPOSING THE RIGHTFUL RULER ACCORDING TO SAID RULER’S WILL.

But, since we are covering this, let‘s actually keep going. See another war is brewing, and we shouldn’t leave this out, as I feel like it is merely a continuation of the last war. So, the War continued causes of inflamation and continuation of fighting : 

1. Cersei has driven her close allies away from her and essentially set up a Lannister-Tyrell war for essentially no reason. 

2. Cersei brought about the capture and trial of son’s wife for no reason. 

3. Cersei armed the Faith which will probably also play into this new war and may be the support Aegon Blackfyre gets which helps him take King’s Landing. 

Jaime is at the same time doing a pretty decent job getting peace treaties in the Riverlands by the way. 

Saying Jaime and Cersei are equally responsible for the war is not only not sexist, it’s preposterous. 

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

That was Cersei’s decision, not Jaime’s.

Whose cock was it? Moonboy?

 

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Anyone who doesn’t think Rhaenyra shouldn’t have inherited the throne in book, book readers and even show watchers are misogynistic. That throne was hers and she and hers should have inherited it with out war, death, pain and horrors. 
 

Renly sucked, house Baratheon sucks and I’m glad they’re dying out. 
 

Anyone who blames Cersei for her role in TWOT5Ks but doesn’t give Jaime his fair share is misogynistic. 
 

A lot of characters are interchangeable. Their motivations and old grievances are petty.

 

Viserys Targaryen is one of the most sympathetic characters. He was horrible to Dany but life was so unfair to him. 
 

Lyanna did nothing wrong and Rhaegar’s only crime was leaving his wife to run away with Lyanna. 
 

I hope Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story. 
 

Cersei is a tedious POV character. Tyrion and Jaime are getting there. 

Plenty of those are truly unpopular and i couldn't disagree more, take my like.

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

So are Jorah's tbf.

There's this meme i saw a while ago that sums Jorah and Dany perfectly

And honestly, if Jorah was in Mereen he'd tell her the same thing most of her advisors have been telling them to do, strike and strike hard against the masters... she didn't want to listen to that counsel, doubt she'd listen to Jorah.

Jorah's advice would be more to take a huge bribe from the masters, and sail away, leaving the freedmen to their fate.

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

Whose cock was it? Moonboy?

 

Plenty of those are truly unpopular and i couldn't disagree more, take my like.

Jaime has more direct command responsibility for atrocities in the Riverlands than Cersei has.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Whose cock was it? Moonboy?

 

Plenty of those are truly unpopular and i couldn't disagree more, take my like.

Having sex with Jaime is not what the problem was. Not having Robert’s children was the problem. Cersei WANTED to have Jaime’s children. Jaime seems at best indifferent to that. Bur more importantly to why things fall apart was not having Robert’s children. That was an inevitable cause to war, and no Jaime did not decide for Cersei for her to not havw Robert’s children. 

Please don’t strawman my argument. I reread what I said and it is obvious I am talking about Robert’s potential children and not Jaime’s. 

The problem was not who’s cock it was, it’s who’s cock it wasn’t. Any other cock, includint Moonboy’s, would be equally problematic and lead to war. 

 

Also, y’all are doing the same thing as always. Blaming extra circumstances as rhe main cause of the war instead of…committing acts of treason/declaring war. 3 Main Causes of the War : 1. Tywin started a war. He invaded the Riverlands and did war. 2. Cersei murdered the King. 3. Cersei had Eddard’s men massacred and removed Eddard from power despite him being the rightful ruler  according to Robert’s will. 

All the other shit is just like extra reasons. These 3 actions are literal acts of war. And Cersei did 2 of them!

Edited December 7, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jaime has more direct command responsibility for atrocities in the Riverlands than Cersei has.

Weird take, but I’ll but. Kevan Lannister has more responsibilities than Cersei as well. Did he in anyway cause the war to start? 

PS I’d argue no, Kevan may besr responsibilty for CONTINUING a war or atrocities in said war, but as to startjng a war…he followed orders. Jaime is still a sub commander under Tywin’s army (Tywin is the overall leader of said war being started and Jaime was following his orders). More importantly though…there is no war…if Cersei doesn’t murder Robert. I will lay down money that Tywin tucks his tail and runs home if Robert declares war on him. Joffrey was right! Tywin was afraid of Robert. Yeah, I said it. Come at me Tywin-stans. Also if Eddard and Renly take Joffrey and Cersei in hand, again, Tywin lays down his arms and goes home. Well…actually once Eddard hands off the kingship to Stannis, war will happen again, but that war will be on Stannis and Tywin lol. 

Just a note : If Jaime was actually majorly responsible for the war, his being captured since AGoT would have changed a lot. If Cersei was captured and held by the Starks (ie Eddard) pre-Eddard’s death….no war happens. The war can only exist with Cersei in power in King’s Landing at the end of AGoT. Actually Joffrey is also an important part of this equation, but I see no world where Cersei is captured and not Joffrey. 

Second note : Wild thought. But what if Tywin was captured instead of Jaime. I think war still happens, however, Robb defeats Jaime in battle and then Robb and Riverlords march on King’s Landing? So…Jaime would incompetently end the war early in this scenario lol. 

Third note : But really guys, lets not take blame off of monarchs/leaders. Generals are not more responsible for death than Monarchs/Leaders. US presidents have probably never pulled a trigger but they are primarily responsible for the war, nit whatever general is on the ground. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jorah's advice would be more to take a huge bribe from the masters, and sail away, leaving the freedmen to their fate.

The thing is, I think that’s probably close to what will end up happening anyway. I’m not sure how much GRRM was inspired by modern foreign intervention, but that’s always the biggest catch: if you intervene and ultimately fail, you’ll end up causing more damage than there would have been had you not gotten involved. If Dany abandons Essos, the best she can hope for is that the years without slavery inspired a grassroots movement that will eventually lead to complete abolition somewhere down the line.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The thing is, I think that’s probably close to what will end up happening anyway. I’m not sure how much GRRM was inspired by modern foreign intervention, but that’s always the biggest catch: if you intervene and ultimately fail, you’ll end up causing more damage than there would have been had you not gotten involved. If Dany abandons Essos, the best she can hope for is that the years without slavery inspired a grassroots movement that will eventually lead to complete abolition somewhere down the line.

Jorah proposes selling children into brothels.

I think it would be a long way out of character for Daenerys to sell out the freedmen to the slavers, for monetary gain.

In any event, the slavers are going to get kerb-stomped outside Meereen, and Volantis will revolt.  There won’t be any masters left.  Their great weakness is that 5/6 in the East are chattel slaves, so they’re one big defeat away from oblivion.

Post-Daenerys, I'd expect Western Essos to be rather like the Americas, the Caribbean, and Europe, between 1776-1830.  There will be wars, tyranny, revolutions, but a rotten order will have been swept away.

Edited December 8, 2023 by SeanF

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jorah proposes selling children into brothels.

I think it would be a long way out of character for Daenerys to sell out the freedmen to the slavers, for monetary gain.

In any event, the slavers are going to get kerb-stomped outside Meereen, and Volantis will revolt.  There won’t be any masters left.  Their great weakness is that 5/6 in the East are chattel slaves, so they’re one big defeat away from oblivion.

I think Ser Jorah’s advice is useful to Dany. It makes her think, not that Ser Jorah would be a competent ruler. In fact, I think he’d be a terrible one. You’re acting like advising = making policy, which is just not the case in these books at all. Daenerys makes the policy, but she needs advisors who will help her think of things she hadn’t thought of. I think Ser Jorah has done that in the past, and I think it was lacking in ADwD among Dany’s other advisors. What does Jon Snow say about Othell Yorwick (i took a random guess on this spelling lol) and Bowen Marsh. Something about not being lickspittles but he already knew what they’d say before they said it? This, but for Dany’s advisors inADwD as well. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

OH I thought of another one.

Jaime would not be “redeemed” by killing Cersei.” You don’t redeem a character by turning him into OJ Simpson. Cersei may be a villain, but she’s also Jaime’s sister, partner, and the mother of his children. Killing her would make him a more villainous character, not a hero. (And she won’t be killed to prevent her from blowing up the city, either. Strangulation is something done out of personal rage, which is why people who die from strangulation are usually killed by someone close to them. If it were just about physically stopping her from doing something, it would much easier just to hit her over the head with something).

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

OH I thought of another one.

Jaime would not be “redeemed” by killing Cersei.” You don’t redeem a character by turning him into OJ Simpson. Cersei may be a villain, but she’s also Jaime’s sister, partner, and the mother of his children. Killing her would make him a more villainous character, not a hero. (And she won’t be killed to prevent her from blowing up the city, either. Strangulation is something done out of personal rage, which is why people who die from strangulation are usually killed by someone close to them. If it were just about physically stopping her from doing something, it would much easier just to hit her over the head with something).

I think that’s correct.  Strangling one’s own sister is a terrible thing to have on one’s soul.  Tyrion could do it, though.

Parts of the fandom treat this story as being like a football match, picking a side, and cheering them on regardless.  So, if they love Jaime, they’ll pin the blame for the Lannisters’ crimes on Cersei, and cheer if he strangles her.

And, I’m guilty of that too.  All I’ll say in my defence is that I push back when people brand characters like Arya and Dany as psychopaths, but I’m happy to discuss their good and bad points with readers who understand nuance.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by SeanF

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that’s correct.  Strangling one’s own sister is a terrible thing to have on one’s soul.  Tyrion could do it, though.

Parts of the fandom treat this story as being like a football match, picking a side, and cheering them on regardless.  So, if they love Jaime, they’ll pin the blame for the Lannisters’ crimes on Cersei, and cheer if he strangles her.

And, I’m guilty of that too.  All I’ll say in my defence is that I push back when people brand characters like Arya and Dany as psychopaths, but I’m happy to discuss their good and bad points with readers who understand nuance.

 

 

For a long time, I was also on board with the idea of Jaime being the valonqar. Then I stopped to think about the full implications of it. (Also it seems kind of silly that a man with one hand would kill anyone through strangulation). And referring to the killer as “THE valonqar” rather than “your valonqar” feels significant. I’m not sure it will be Tyrion either.