Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[frenin]

23 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei WANTED to have Jaime’s children

So did Jaime, that's my point.

He's a knowing and willing participant every step of the way.

He's as possessive with Cersei as Cersei is with him, he was outraged at the idea of her sleeping with someone else. How many years do you think Jaime would have suffered Robert's son, as in one who looked just like him but came out of his sister's legs, before he got Bran'd?

Jaime also resented both Robert and Ned because he felt they had done worse than him and he was reviled by everyone while they received honor, glory and utmost respect.

And let us not forget the one time Cersei did get pregnant with Robert... It was Jaime who get her the abortifacent.

 

On 12/7/2023 at 11:06 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Blaming extra circumstances as rhe main cause of the war instead of…committing acts of treason/declaring war

None of that has any reason to happen without the original sin. In fact the moment the secret was out, and the moment Petyr or Varys figured it out it was out, war became unavoidable. And for that, Jaime share plenty of the blame.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

think Ser Jorah has done that in the past, and I think it was lacking in ADwD among Dany’s other advisors.

Again, I'm not seeing the practical difference between Jorah and Shavepate 

[Dofs]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

OH I thought of another one.

Jaime would not be “redeemed” by killing Cersei.” You don’t redeem a character by turning him into OJ Simpson. Cersei may be a villain, but she’s also Jaime’s sister, partner, and the mother of his children. Killing her would make him a more villainous character, not a hero. (And she won’t be killed to prevent her from blowing up the city, either. Strangulation is something done out of personal rage, which is why people who die from strangulation are usually killed by someone close to them. If it were just about physically stopping her from doing something, it would much easier just to hit her over the head with something).

I would question the very idea that Jaime's relationship with Cersei defines his redemption arc that a lot of people seem to hold (and the show definitely went with this interpretation as well, so that doesn't help). I mean, Cersei wasn't even relevant to his arc in aSoS, so how can it be about her?

[Craving Peaches]

The dragons are annoying and I hope they are gone by the end of the series.

[Dofs]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

He's as possessive with Cersei as Cersei is with him, he was outraged at the idea of her sleeping with someone else.

Ho dares Jaime to hate the fact that his life partner sleeps with another man. Any decent man must be a willing cuckold! 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Dofs

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

53 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The dragons are annoying and I hope they are gone by the end of the series.

I mean, we haven’t seen them as much in the books as we have on the show, so I’m not quite there yet.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

 

 

Again, I'm not seeing the practical difference between Jorah and Shavepate 

Neither is a good man, but while the Shavepate wishes to complete the revolution (even if for selfish reasons), Jorah can't see the point of it.  For him, Slavers Bay would just be a source of plunder.

Also, I think Jorah would rape Daenerys, if he could get away with it.

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Ho dares Jaime to hate the fact that his life partner sleeps with another man. Any decent man must be a willing cuckold! 

Jaime had no right to be upset. They are brother and sister and Cersei was always going to be married to someone not her brother. 
 

Cersei and Jaime even planned them continuing their incestuous relationship while she married. That’s the reason Jaime became a Kingsguard was to continue his relationship with Cersei while she married to the king and provided heirs. 
 

What did Jaime think was going to happen? 

[Dofs]

16 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime had no right to be upset. They are brother and sister and Cersei was always going to be married to someone not her brother. 
 

Cersei and Jaime even planned them continuing their incestuous relationship while she married. That’s the reason Jaime became a Kingsguard was to continue his relationship with Cersei while she married to the king and provided heirs. 
 

What did Jaime think was going to happen? 

Of course he had no right to be upset! It's absolutely disgusting that he was, what an awful human being. A good man wouldn't be in his place. Like, four of Ned's children don't have typical Stark features. Why? Because Ned was a good man. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Dofs

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Like, four of Ned's children don't have typical Stark features.

It was never established that the Stark seed is strong, unlike the Baratheons.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[The Wolves]

1 minute ago, Dofs said:

Of course he had no right to be upset! It's absolutely disgusting that he was, what an awful human being. A good man wouldn't be in his place. Like, four of Ned's children don't have typical Stark features. Why? Because Ned was good man. 

I don’t get what you’re saying. 
 

Also what does Ned, the Starks or any of four of his children have to do with Jaime and him sleeping with Cersei? 

[Dofs]

Just now, The Wolves said:

I don’t get what you’re saying. 
 

Also what does Ned, the Starks or any of four of his children have to do with Jaime and him sleeping with Cersei? 

Well, apparently you have to share you partner to be a decent person. 

[Alester Florent]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

So did Jaime, that's my point.

He's a knowing and willing participant every step of the way.

Did he? I thought he didn't care one way or the other. For him, based on his apparent feelings about Joffrey at least, it was all about the sex with Cersei and Joffrey was just something that happened. Wherease Cersei was intentionally bearing Jaime's children and aborting Robert's.

And sure, it was Jaime who got Cersei the abortifacient, but it was surely her driving that, because he wouldn't have known she was pregnant at an early enough stage unless she told him, and he's the only person she can trust with that mission. I don't see any particular reason to believe that Jaime would have been more annoyed about Cersei's bearing one of Robert's children than he was about their relationship in the first place.

[Dofs]

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It was never established that the Stark seed is strong, unlike the Baratheons.

Don't treat that post seriously, it was an irony on the idea, that Jaime disliking the fact that his partner sleeps with another man makes him a bad person.

Hence that if we agree that Ned was a good person, then by that logic their life with Catelyn was pretty spicy.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Dofs

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Did he? I thought he didn't care one way or the other. For him, based on his apparent feelings about Joffrey at least, it was all about the sex with Cersei and Joffrey was just something that happened. Wherease Cersei was intentionally bearing Jaime's children and aborting Robert's.

And sure, it was Jaime who got Cersei the abortifacient, but it was surely her driving that, because he wouldn't have known she was pregnant at an early enough stage unless she told him, and he's the only person she can trust with that mission. I don't see any particular reason to believe that Jaime would have been more annoyed about Cersei's bearing one of Robert's children than he was about their relationship in the first place.

Nah, he may not have shown must interest in the kids but that was some to do with Cersei telling him not to. He absolutely wanted Cersei's children to be his though. 

He was just as much a participant here as Cersei. He could have refused just like she did. Doesn't matter when she told him she was pregnant lol he still aided & abetted her crime to the fullest degree. 

He is quite possessive over Cersei in the beginning, not so much now, but I have an extremely hard time believing it wouldn't have made any difference to him if her children were his or Roberts. 

Jaime was also intentionally seeding Cersei's children & helping to abort Roberts so not sure what the difference is there either. 

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Ho dares Jaime to hate the fact that his life partner sleeps with another man. Any decent man must be a willing cuckold! 

Weren't partners tho. Didn't get the memo didn't he?

 

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Did he?

Afaik he did.

 

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Wherease Cersei was intentionally bearing Jaime's children and aborting Robert's.

With Jaime's help.

Jaime himself disliked the fact that Cersei slept with Robert and wanted to prevent it at all costs, how could she get pregnant with other Jaime in such scenario?

There's also the fact that Jaime deeply resented his and Robert's status.

 

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

because he wouldn't have known she was pregnant at an early enough stage unless she told him

And she could have not gotten rid of the baby without Jaime.

 

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

and he's the only person she can trust with that mission.

Pycelle?

[Dofs]

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

Weren't partners tho. Didn't get the memo didn't he?

Do you believe Ned was a decent man or not thought? 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Do you believe Ned was a decent man or not thought? 

I certainly believe we're talking about different things.

[Dofs]

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

I certainly believe we're talking about different things.

Why, thought? Just want to figure out who do you think shares their partners in asoiaf.  Since you started this conversation.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Why, thought? Just want to figure out who do you think shares their partners in asoiaf.  Since you started this conversation.

Again, I don't think I understand what you're talking about.

Jaime and Cersei aren't partners and never were, she was engaged and married to other men for most of their lives.

But even then, I don't even know why you have decided to focus on that. But it certainly seems it amuses you so I won't be the one to deny the fun so long is harmless.

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Again, I don't think I understand what you're talking about.

Jaime and Cersei aren't partners and never were, she was engaged and married to other men for most of their lives.

But even then, I don't even know why you have decided to focus on that. But it certainly seems it amuses you so I won't be the one to deny the fun so long is harmless.

I just found the sentence I initially quoted hilarious, and am just going with it indeed. You have described having a completely normal emotional response as something bad, so am now wondering if you will remain consistent and apply the same logic to other characters. 

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nah, he may not have shown must interest in the kids but that was some to do with Cersei telling him not to. He absolutely wanted Cersei's children to be his though. 

He wanted to please Cersei far more than to have her children to be his. Which is why he gave up on them so easily. Jaime himself thinks about this in aSoS with regards to how horrible that was and that he will never behave like that again.

5 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

He was just as much a participant here as Cersei. He could have refused just like she did. Doesn't matter when she told him she was pregnant lol he still aided & abetted her crime to the fullest degree. 

He could have refused, but, again, he was just doing what he was told. Jaime was a "yes-man" to Cersei at that point. Cersei was indeed the instigator of everything, and if not Jaime, would have found someone else to help her, both with abortion and with denying Robert from heirs. Remember that this was entirely her decision when she sound out Robert was cheating on her. If Jaime wasn't available, she would have slept with someone else instead. Maybe that would have made less obvious her children are bastards though. Depends on who would she have found.

5 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

He is quite possessive over Cersei in the beginning, not so much now, but I have an extremely hard time believing it wouldn't have made any difference to him if her children were his or Roberts. 

Jaime sees his children as Robert's already. If the children were Robert's, he would have done what he was already doing - sucking it up and trying to please Cersei. Jaime wasn't a person to just lash out on his own like that, compromising Cersei's life. Otherwise he wouldn't have needed his character arc.