Why does anyone trust the Starks?

[Craving Peaches]

As we all know, the Starks are treacherous by nature. You only have to look at recent events to see that. Within twenty years, they have betrayed two Kings (one of whom was a Targaryen), broken three marriage oaths, were involved in the assassination of the king they betrayed, threatened two different crown princes, betrayed the Night's Watch, and now they are consorting with all sorts of low lives including assassins and cannibals. This begs the question, why does anyone trust the Starks? I can only assume it is because they are too good and kind-hearted to see the Starks for the greedy, selfish traitors that they are.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Casso, King of the Seals]

Total bait but let's go.

They rose in rebellion against a Targaryen king who enjoyed burning people alive, among them Rickard and Brandon. After Eddard wrote a letter to Robert's rightful heir, Stannis, he was beheaded by Joffrey on a whim after being promised he would be allowed to take the black, they declared independence from the Iron Throne, which is a questionable move, maybe they could have backed Stannis more but a similar reaction would come from any other House if faced by the same situation.

Lyanna was supposedly abducted by Rhaeghar to the knowledge of most people. She was young and following what her genes were telling her to do. Same for Brandon and Robb. These are teenagers who would surely like to keep their vows, but when they are faced with more attractive options in the moment, they don't do what their parents or strangers (bannermen) want them to. Despite this, Lyanna is remembered as a kind-hearted person, Brandon rode with his father south to retrieve his sister, which is an act of bravery and commitment to own family, and Robb does everything he can to fix the situation with Walder Frey. Being made a fool of after being promised that your daughter will be a Queen in the North is not great but killing half the Northern force in a bloody show while they are your guests is not an appropriate reaction.

Sansa was unknowingly used by Petyr Baelish to bring poison to the wedding feast so that Olenna could conveniently poison Joffrey. Totally unfair to imply that the Starks were involved in Joffrey's assassination.

Which crown princes did they threaten?

How did the Starks betray the Night's Watch?

Arya is training with the Faceless Men, a high-level assassination force, which no one knows about. Not sure what cannibals you have in mind that the Starks are allied with.

In general their reputation is definitely not worse than that of the Lannisters or the Greyjoys. Also, it seems that most who do decide to ally themselves with the Starks do so for selfish reasons, e.g. Northern lords swore fealty and are loyal by default because otherwise would be ostracized by other lords and punished, there are family and property ties in between these Houses, kids are taken as hostages to ensure no rebellion or double-crossing happens, etc. There is not really anyone who "trusts the Starks" because:

• Eddard, Catelyn, Robb are dead.
• Brandon and Rickon are believed dead by mostly everyone. Manderly, who wants them back, is a Stark loyalist for above reasons, they were friends with the parents, plus are driven by revenge after their young king is slaughtered at the Red Wedding.
• Sansa is gone missing and no one at King's Landing "trusted" her, she was under close guard, married to Tyrion in order for the Lannisters to be able to claim Winterfell once an heir is produced. Not exactly a nice situation to be in.
• Arya is believed dead by everyone. No one knows she is with the Faceless Men, therefore no one "trusts" her.
• Jon, if you consider him a Stark, was just killed by his own men mostly because of his own poor communication and a lack of negotiation skills. The key officers who he did not get on his side about the wildling issues have valid concerns but maybe killing Jon in the middle of a wildling host and Jon loyalists within the Watch was also not a smart move, we shall see. The wildlings, led by Tormund, trust him because they have no other choice than to deal with the one person who is willing to save them from starvation, cannibalism and being killed by wights and the Others. Stannis makes pragmatic deals with him (getting the Nightfort, being given provisions, intel on how to get to the mountain clans) - this is partially because he helped save the Watch from the attacking Mance's host, partially because he has now got his own army at the Watch, and partially because he develops a level of trust with Jon, who aids him despite his vows, being fueled by hatred of the Lannisters for killing his parents and brother, as well as marrying his favorite sister to a sadistic monster (as far as he knows). Maybe he should have been more impartial but then he has an excuse of Stannis's army being able to overwhelm the Watch so he complies to an extent.

I like the Starks.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Casso, King of the Seals said:

Total bait but let's go.

Spoiler

It is meant to be a parody, I don't actually think any of those things! I like the Starks...

[Alester Florent]

Never mind the Starks, what about the Baratheons?

Lyonel Baratheon fought against three princes of the blood for basically no reason and got off scot-free. Later he rebelled against the Iron Throne for a trivial reason. His grandson(?) Steffon, was trusted by his king to go and fetch a wife for Rhaegar. Instead he used the time to recruit a fool for his own castle. Was Rhaegar supposed to marry Patchface? Then rather than report back to Aerys about his failure he ran his ship aground, killing his wife in front of their sons. Jerk.

Steffon's sons are even worse. Robert rose up against his lawful king, and then rather than begging Daenerys Stormborn for the mercy of a quick death, ordered her killed too. He got really fat, which is a waste of food when there are probably people starving. He repeatedly betrayed his marriage vows. Stannis betrayed the Faith of the Seven, and his wife with Melisandre, and rebelled against Joffrey and his rightful queen Daenerys the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, murdered his brother (who deserved to die anyway for his own crimes but Stannis still gets the blame for this), then he went to help the traitor Jon Snow and eventually marched on the loyal warden of the north, the honourable Roose Bolton.

Renly is the worst of the lot. He betrayed Joffrey and Tommen and Myrcella and Stannis and his rightful queen Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains and his wife Margaery with her own brother, and he deliberately killed babies in King's Landing by blockading it, most likely laughing about it because he was always laughing, and he was probably a rubbish Master of Laws too, and everyone hated him because he was a dishonourable jerk who was totally unlikeable.

Why would anyone have any dealings with this house of horrors?

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Renly is the worst of the lot. He betrayed Joffrey and Tommen and Myrcella and Stannis and his rightful queen Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains and his wife Margaery with her own brother, and he deliberately killed babies in King's Landing by blockading it, most likely laughing about it because he was always laughing, and he was probably a rubbish Master of Laws too, and everyone hated him because he was a dishonourable jerk who was totally unlikeable.

That Renly is nothing but trouble. I bet he killed his parents too, so that Steffon couldn't help King Aerys recover. Also, he spends all his money on clothes. What a waste. Stannis is awful too but at least he dresses like a peasant to save money.

[LongRider]

What about the Freys?  There are so many of them and they all look the same; near sighted and buck toothed.  Plus, they are whiny and always trying to marry up and everyone in Westeros knows someone married to a Frey and at least one in every family line.  They control the bridges on the Green Fork of the River Trident, and old Walder Frey trys to pimp out marry off his daughters to allow people to cross the river.   Plus, when Freys send their boys out to be fostered, they are a bad influence on the host families' young boys.  Other than breeding like rabbits, they make good pies.  

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

What about the Freys?  There are so many of them and they all look the same; near sighted and buck toothed.  Plus, they are whiny and always trying to marry up and everyone in Westeros knows someone married to a Frey and at least one in every family line.  They control the bridges on the Green Fork of the River Trident, and old Walder Frey trys to pimp out marry off his daughters to allow people to cross the river.   Plus, when Freys send their boys out to be fostered, they are a bad influence on the host families' young boys.  Other than breeding like rabbits, they make good pies.  

No no no but you see Walder Frey was very hardworking unlike those lazy Starks, he actually has his own business, the equally industrious Roose was right to marry a Frey.

[Craving Peaches]

@James Steller, I see you are confused. Do you need me to clarify why the Starks are so untrustworthy?

Spoiler

In case it wasn't clear, this was meant to be a joke mocking all the 'evil treacherous Starks will unleash the Others upon Westeros and God-Empress Daenerys will destroy them' posts that have been cropping up recently.

 

[James Steller]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

@James Steller, I see you are confused. Do you need me to clarify why the Starks are so untrustworthy?

  Hide contents

In case it wasn't clear, this was meant to be a joke mocking all the 'evil treacherous Starks will unleash the Others upon Westeros and God-Empress Daenerys will destroy them' posts that have been cropping up recently.

 

You got me... 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, James Steller said:

You got me... 

I think I will put these in italics from now on because I thought it was obvious but apparently not...

[Aebram]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think I will put these in italics from now on because I thought it was obvious but apparently not...

I missed the joke too. I think the problem is that you weren't extreme enough; the things you wrote are all too typical of what the real haters write. Next time, you might try accusing the Starks of something that's really over the top, like being communists, or climate-science deniers.  :^)

Edited September 11, 2023 by Aebram

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

As we all know, the Starks are treacherous by nature. You only have to look at recent events to see that. Within twenty years, they have betrayed two Kings (one of whom was a Targaryen), broken three marriage oaths, were involved in the assassination of the king they betrayed, threatened two different crown princes, betrayed the Night's Watch, and now they are consorting with all sorts of low lives including assassins and cannibals. This begs the question, why does anyone trust the Starks? I can only assume it is because they are too good and kind-hearted to see the Starks for the greedy, selfish traitors that they are.

The Liddles and other clansmen appear to be oblivious to the Starks' true nature.  Of course that may be because they are isolated and don't get current news.

The Manderlys, other than a bratty, naive granddaughter, know better.  Once they heard the Freys' first hand account of Robb's treachery, they knew the Starks weren't to be trusted.  They're after Rickon, but only because, due to his age, he is easy to control making him a good figurehead and puppet.

Jon Snow's second in command saw through his indecisive and treacherous nature and bravely deposed him before his erratic decisions in favor of enemies such as the wildlings and Stannis resulted in the isolation and eventual obliteration of the Nights Watch.

Sansa helped murder the King but is now under the control of a Lannister loyalist.  Biddable, sheltered, and lacking in intelligence, she is willing to assist him with his efforts to improve his, and her, position in Westeros, even if it means betraying other family members, like an annoying cousin.

Arya is being kept safe and secure by the good and powerful Lord Ramsay of Winterfell.  He is taking steps to ensure her loyalty to the Boltons and their leiges the Lannisters like he did with the traitorous Theon Greyjoy.

So, no worries.  The Starks are dead or neutralized and no longer a threat to the stability of the North or Westeros as a whole.

[Sometimes I scare even myself with my warped thinking]

Edited September 11, 2023 by Nevets

[LongRider]

32 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Jon Snow's second in command saw through his indecisive and treacherous nature and bravely deposed him before his erratic decisions in favor of enemies such as the wildlings and Stannis resulted in the isolation and eventual obliteration of the Nights Watch.

Tywin Lannister sent the brave and loyal Janos Slynt to the Wall to become the next LC after Tywin's secret wilding operative, Craster, took out LC Lord Mormont.  However, due to a munity by the losers already in the Watch, both Craster and Mormont were rubbed out.  Tywin's plan to elevate Sylnt to the LC position did not come to fruition because of the devious cheating headed by Sam Tarly, his partner in crime Doloros Edd and that filthy raven, the Bastard of Winterfell was unfairly elected as Lord Commander in a true rigged election. 

Later, after Tywin's unfortunate demise brought on by his dwarf progeny, who was in cahoots with the NW no doubt, Cersei took up the gauntlet and made an elaborate plan to have Osney Kettleblack to take a fall for adultery with Queen Margery, only to be tortured by the High Sparrow who learned the truth and who had Cersei arrested.   There went her plan to send 100 former Gold Cloaks to the Wall to assassinate Jon Snow and take over the Watch to be her own private army in the North.  

However, the day was later saved when the brave pomegranate known as Saint Bowen Marsh, arranged a little stabby stabby party of his own and took out Jon Snow, the man who was the worst LC of the Night Watch since forever!  Now, luckily for Westeros, not only was there not a Stark in Winterfell, but there isn't one in the Night Watch either! 

As for the Freys, I stand by what I previously wrote.

[Alester Florent]

39 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Later, after Tywin's unfortunate demise brought on by his dwarf progeny, who was in cahoots with the NW no doubt

What was Tyrion doing up at the Wall if not conspiring with them to kill Tywin? CHECKMATE, libstarks.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Alester Florent

[LongRider]

28 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

What was Tyrion doing up at the Wall if not conspiring with them to kill Tywin? CHECKMATE, libstarks.

Dude!  That's exactly what I said, the dwarf progeny was in cahoots with the NW!  Unfortunately, due to bad luck, Mormont did not live to see his nefarious plan come to fruition.  Tyrion almost, almost made it back to the Wall too!   That's what ya get when you fly with the crows, I guess.  

[Wolf's Bane]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

As we all know, the Starks are treacherous by nature. You only have to look at recent events to see that. Within twenty years, they have betrayed two Kings (one of whom was a Targaryen), broken three marriage oaths, were involved in the assassination of the king they betrayed, threatened two different crown princes, betrayed the Night's Watch, and now they are consorting with all sorts of low lives including assassins and cannibals. This begs the question, why does anyone trust the Starks? I can only assume it is because they are too good and kind-hearted to see the Starks for the greedy, selfish traitors that they are.

Plot necessity.  G.R.R.M. needed the plot to have the Freys trust the Starks and then have them get betrayed by said Starks.  He (George) needed to give the Freys a very good and justifiable reason to attack the Starks.  The same justification was given to poor Bowen Marsh. 

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

What was Tyrion doing up at the Wall if not conspiring with them to kill Tywin? CHECKMATE, libstarks.

Bowen Marsh DESTROYS Jon Snow with FACTS and LOGIC.

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Bowen Marsh DESTROYS Jon Snow with FACTS and LOGIC.

Steps out of character for a moment.  Facts and logic?  I thought he used a knife.  Thats pretty damn funny!    

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Steps out of character for a moment.  Facts and logic?  I thought he used a knife.  Thats pretty damn funny!    

It is a FACT that the Watch was running out of food.

It is a FACT that Jon Snow wanted to let tens of thousands of unwashed savages into the Realm, feed and clothe them all while wasting the Watch's precious food on them, leaving the Watchmen to starve.

It is LOGIC which told Bowen Marsh that the only way to stop this from happening was to kill Jon Snow.

It is LOGIC therefore which killed Jon Snow.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

46 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Steps out of character for a moment.  Facts and logic?  I thought he used a knife.  Thats pretty damn funny!    

Reminds me of that case from a few years ago: "Florida man says he will 'kill neighbours with kindness' then tries to kill them with machete he named 'Kindness'".