Did Tywin give THAT command?

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? Tywin doesn’t have to be a spectator to enjoy it. His satisfaction isn’t tied to him witnessing events firsthand, but rather in the knowledge that his enemies were humiliated, betrayed, destroyed, all for the grave insult of defying the Lannisters.

Exactly. Cersei enjoys the story of Loras' wounding a lot. She wasn't present on Dragonstone, and didn't even need to see him. Joffrey was super duper enjoying the tales of the red wedding. He wasn't present.

Lannister sadists can enjoy brutal murder of a target without witnessing it

[Kal-L]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Because hatred is not rational, and a dead Rhaegar does not take the slight away of the girl (whom he thought no better than a bride for Tyrion) ended up being Rhaegar's bride.

A mean to insult for Tywin that is often forgotten. He used it as the ultimate slight against the fallen House Stark of Winterfell, but before that, he had used it against others families such as the Tullys (as a replacement for Jaime) and the Royces. If anything that is a good indication of his relationships with said Houses. In the case of the Tullys, it's possible that Lysa's dishonor would have reached his ears, but when it comes to the Royces, I imagine that a honorable man like Lord Yohn Royce would hardly get along with a power-hungry family like the Lannisters. Words from Lord Royce about Robert's in-laws could have reached Casterly Rock if there wasn't a direct "confrontation".

[Dofs]

23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? Tywin doesn’t have to be a spectator to enjoy it. His satisfaction isn’t tied to him witnessing events firsthand, but rather in the knowledge that his enemies were humiliated, betrayed, destroyed, all for the grave insult of defying the Lannisters.

The poster I replied to was talking about enjoying hurting others as a bully like Joffrey. That makes no sense without him being a spectator. Him feeling satisfaction over his enemies getting punished is not something I disagree with.

 

22 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Tywin desires revenge for slighting the honor of his house, but he doesn't want to be associated with retributions when it would in and of itself slight the honor of his house. If he was open about the thing that he "ordered a noblewomen be raped and killed because she through no fault of her own got married to a guy he wanted his daughter to marry" he wouldn't be respected as a man not to be trifled with, he would be reviled as a madman, Lannisters would be considered new Lothsons and no one would ever engage with them rationally. Tywin knows he can't just do that publicly so he maintains the deniability he knows that "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." Who would consider bending a knee to him if they knew he ordered Elia to be raped and killed over taking Cersei's place? Same with Red Wedding, he doesn't want to be associated with an act widely believed to be afront to laws of gods and men, and his behavior towards the Freys after betrays the true mastermind behind the plan (Lothar and the rest just did the technical side of the planning, it was Tywin's idea to murder Robb Stark) because if Freys just wanted to do it, there would be no endless Frey demands after it, Tywin would just made peace with them (or not even that, consider how he treats Balon Greyjoy's constant proposals for the alliance), the fact Freys demand so much from him means they did something on Tywin's behalf "There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool."

That's a fair comment but the thing is, he wiped out two noble families and flaunted this for the rest of his life, ensuring everyone remembers what he did. He ordered two royal babies being murdered and presented it in a way that he denied it in the face of the law, but made sure people knew unofficially it was him in order to get in Robert's good graces. When Tyrion was kidnapped, he sent Gregor and his men to plunder and rape innocent people in Riverlands in a way that he would be innocent in the face of the law, but everyone would be well aware it was him. It's also no secret that Tywin approved Red Wedding, since Walder Frey and Roose Bolton literally did it in his name. And Tywin is not busy to disprove that notion. He also flat out admits about Aegon, Rhaneys and Red Wedding to Tyrion. So I am not sure what kind of "bad honour" he tries to prevent to go towards his House. Tywin is widely known as a ruthless bastard with him being proud of this reputation. He completely owns the role of a villain.

20 hours ago, sifth said:

Give me an example of a “lesson” that didn’t involve mass murder or absolute cruelty to a person? Non exist, but they serve as nice excuses for Tywin to embrace his lack of humanity.

I am not sure what are you trying to argue here. It's not like I disagree that Tywin's lessons involve mass murder or absolute cruelty.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyhow I call bull on your "teaching a lesson" rule. He's just a mass abusive jerk who lashes out and then does some "post-rationalisation".

I think you are ignoring a fundamental part of Tywin's character by saying that: his massive daddy issues.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Because hatred is not rational, and a dead Rhaegar does not take the slight away of the girl (whom he thought no better than a bride for Tyrion) ended up being Rhaegar's bride.

It's not about dead Rhaegar, it's about not being tied to Targaryens.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And well Kevan's thoughts over Cersei and Rhaegar in his epilogue decades later, despite knowing the worst of Cersei, indicate what Tywin's beliefs would have been - if Rhaegar had only wed Cersei then there wouldn't have been Robert's Rebellion. "It's all Aerys's and Elia's fault"

Targaryens would have stayed in power if Tywin actually wanted that. He ignored Aerys' summons because he hated him.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Dofs

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

He also flat out admits about Aegon, Rhaneys and Red Wedding to Tyrion.

These are things he can justify to Tyrion as being coldly pragmatic and rational. Aegon and Rhaenys were threats to the new regime, and the whole “it’s better to kill a few men at dinner than thousands in battle” (which is BS as thousands were killed in the Red Wedding).

There’s no such basis for Elia. Admitting to that would be admitting to petty vindictiveness and emotionally driven behavior. Which is an image Tywin desperately wants to avoid even though I think it’s very clear that he isn’t nearly as uber-logical as he portrays himself.

I’m not sure if he explicitly gave the order but I think at the very least he knew what would happen sending the Mountain and deliberately didn’t give him instructions to the contrary. Having Tywin make the “even you wouldn’t accuse me of that” comment to Tyrion and then revealing what really happened with Tysha later in the book is basically GRRM holding up a neon sign saying “Tywin did that shit” IMO.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/1/2023 at 3:42 PM, Equilibrium said:

Adverse possession  Freeholders croaked, just me around hahaha

I have landed with an army to purge you from my lands and rebuild Valyria! Though there seems to be much water. 

[sweetsunray]

13 hours ago, Dofs said:

The poster I replied to was talking about enjoying hurting others as a bully like Joffrey. That makes no sense without him being a spectator. Him feeling satisfaction over his enemies getting punished is not something I disagree with.

Joffrey was over the moon with the stories on how Robb was killed. Joffrey wasn't a spectator at the red wedding. If that does not make sense to you, take it up with George.

 

13 hours ago, Dofs said:

It's not like I disagree that Tywin's lessons involve mass murder or absolute cruelty.

Mass murder and absolute cruelty is not "teaching a lesson". That's just a post-rationalisation label. Mass murder and absolute cruelty means Tywin enjoys mass murder and absolute cruelty, and actually points at Tywin not believing that someone he perceives as having slighted or insulted him can learn. They're a lost cause to him, which is why he doesn't mind seeing them dead or see them destroyed.

13 hours ago, Dofs said:

I think you are ignoring a fundamental part of Tywin's character by saying that: his massive daddy issues.

No, I don't. A lot of people have daddy issues. But not everybody goes the length that Tywin does. It's not the daddy issues that cause him to be a mass murderer. It's his personality, and the daddy issues are but the catalyst that were the excuse to implement it on.

It's similar to Cersei's case. Cersei uses particular slights (that did happen) as excuses to rationalize her brutality and hostility, but her narcissistic personality is prone to see anything as a slight anyway and any rejection would lead to narcissistic injury, which in a narcissist will lead to a deep hatred and anger. We all get seriously rejected in life and deeply disappointed, not getting what we desire or hoped for or expected or was promised to us. It's part of life. And yes it does hurt. So much sometimes that even normal empathic people get the breath knocked out of them for months or years, resulting in jadedness, retreat or even cynicism. But a healthy individual will be focused on learning to emotionally deal with the risk of rejection and will come to realize that even if they were rejected as a person, another person has a right to their own dreams and desires and that we may just not be that for someone else. That in fact, a lot of the rejection is not personal at all, but the natural result of an incompatibility. A narcissist like Cersei cannot learn this. They're stuck on it, and they are prone to see slights and rejection in people's words or behavior when there isn't even none intended. Hence, a particular rejection in her past is not the cause of her pathology, merely the excuse to externalize it. 

A similar idea can be linked to Tywin. He was prone to see rejection, not getting his way, etc as something deeply personal, instead of being able to put that into perspective. He would have done so even if he had a perfect amiable relation to his father.

To drive my point home: Sam has serious daddy issues. It does not make him into a young man wanting to kill any man who ever insulted him. I mention Sam, because the first thought that will come to your mind is "yeah, but Sam is different". Yes, that is exactly the point! Sam is an entirely different person who naturally responds different to slights and namecalling, etc. So, it's not the daddy issues or the insults, but the personality.

13 hours ago, Dofs said:

It's not about dead Rhaegar, it's about not being tied to Targaryens.

It's not about rationality, but about irrational hatred and resentment.

13 hours ago, Dofs said:

Targaryens would have stayed in power if Tywin actually wanted that. He ignored Aerys' summons because he hated him.

See, you're recognizing that Tywin made choices based on his emotions and feelings towards someone, not because he is rational.

Edited October 3, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:30 AM, Dofs said:

Not just because there are factual issues, like the fact that Cat wasn't supposed to be killed, but even on conceptual level, Tywin can't enjoy violence that's happening thousands of kilometers away.

Yes, he can. In fact, I'd argue he likes it more. He loves that his power can reach far. He loves that he can give orders and people just do them. I wouldn't be surprised if he secretly commissioned "The Rains of Castamere" because he loves both power, but also making everyone afraid of him.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

There’s no such basis for Elia. Admitting to that would be admitting to petty vindictiveness and emotionally driven behavior. Which is an image Tywin desperately wants to avoid even though I think it’s very clear that he isn’t nearly as uber-logical as he portrays himself.

I’m not sure if he explicitly gave the order but I think at the very least he knew what would happen sending the Mountain and deliberately didn’t give him instructions to the contrary. Having Tywin make the “even you wouldn’t accuse me of that” comment to Tyrion and then revealing what really happened with Tysha later in the book is basically GRRM holding up a neon sign saying “Tywin did that shit” IMO.

Quoting someone just to agree with them might seem strange. But this stuck out as so specifically what I think about Tywin, I wanted to make it clear that I think it is exactly correct to his personality.  @Dofs - I agree with all this above, and @ATaleofSalt&Onions just did a much better job of wording it then I did, but it is exactly what I think of Tywin's character. 

[Equilibrium]

19 hours ago, Dofs said:

That's a fair comment but the thing is, he wiped out two noble families and flaunted this for the rest of his life, ensuring everyone remembers what he did. He ordered two royal babies being murdered and presented it in a way that he denied it in the face of the law, but made sure people knew unofficially it was him in order to get in Robert's good graces. When Tyrion was kidnapped, he sent Gregor and his men to plunder and rape innocent people in Riverlands in a way that he would be innocent in the face of the law, but everyone would be well aware it was him. It's also no secret that Tywin approved Red Wedding, since Walder Frey and Roose Bolton literally did it in his name. And Tywin is not busy to disprove that notion. He also flat out admits about Aegon, Rhaneys and Red Wedding to Tyrion. So I am not sure what kind of "bad honour" he tries to prevent to go towards his House. Tywin is widely known as a ruthless bastard with him being proud of this reputation. He completely owns the role of a villain.

In the Westerosi noblemen culture killing in the context of the war or rebellion is seen as a GOOD thing, ordering a rape of a noblewoman or being involved in the breaking of guest right are seen as bad things. They aren't seen as bad because gods ordered it, but because they undermine the government system and mutual trust nobles have for each other which is the thing that holds the system together even during the conflicts. Tywin's quote I used directly reinforces that fact and points out he is acutely aware of it. Pillaging isn't seen as belonging in that category because it is routinely done during conflicts, and Lannister vs Crown conflict already started because of Ned-Jaime confrontation. As for the last point you are ignoring the case I made that Tywin didn't approve Red Wedding, he ordered it, which is further strengthened by the fact that his treatment of Westerlings points out that he planned something like that for a long time.

[Dofs]

On 10/2/2023 at 10:56 PM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

These are things he can justify to Tyrion as being coldly pragmatic and rational. Aegon and Rhaenys were threats to the new regime, and the whole “it’s better to kill a few men at dinner than thousands in battle” (which is BS as thousands were killed in the Red Wedding).

There’s no such basis for Elia. Admitting to that would be admitting to petty vindictiveness and emotionally driven behavior. Which is an image Tywin desperately wants to avoid even though I think it’s very clear that he isn’t nearly as uber-logical as he portrays himself.

I’m not sure if he explicitly gave the order but I think at the very least he knew what would happen sending the Mountain and deliberately didn’t give him instructions to the contrary. Having Tywin make the “even you wouldn’t accuse me of that” comment to Tyrion and then revealing what really happened with Tysha later in the book is basically GRRM holding up a neon sign saying “Tywin did that shit” IMO.

He explains it to Tyrion as a rational thing because that's exactly how he views it in his head. But he has absolutely no delusions about how all of it is viewed and that it supposedly makes him not bad. As he tells to Tyrion, he killed the children so that Robert wouldn't have to as Robert likes to be viewed as a hero and heroes don't kill children. This pretty clearly shows how Tywin views himself.

Elia is literally one example among literally everything else Tywin has ever done where he avoids any responsibility whatsoever. None of any other horrific stuff he has ordered to do did Tywin shy away from. He has always rationalized everything he did, that's the consistent pattern of his behavior. Don't you think Elia is a bit of an outlier here? Besides, if killing Elia was really an emotionally driven order instead of trying to cleanse public humiliation, which is what usually is the reason he commits all his crimes, I again don't understand why was he not happy that he wasn't tied with Targaryens by marriage.

Elia and Tysha are quite literally beings of different species in Tywin's mind.

On 10/3/2023 at 8:44 AM, sweetsunray said:

Joffrey was over the moon with the stories on how Robb was killed. Joffrey wasn't a spectator at the red wedding. If that does not make sense to you, take it up with George.

And how many people were over the moon with how Joffrey died? Being happy over your enemy's death and hence winning the war is nothing unusual, especially if you have problems with empathy. What makes Joffrey especially awful and a bully is how he enjoys seeing people be humiliated and miserable with him having power over them. How he likes to see Sansa tormented, Tyrion, etc. Being a spectator here is important. And Tywin doesn't care about spectating.

On 10/3/2023 at 8:44 AM, sweetsunray said:

Mass murder and absolute cruelty is not "teaching a lesson". That's just a post-rationalisation label. Mass murder and absolute cruelty means Tywin enjoys mass murder and absolute cruelty, and actually points at Tywin not believing that someone he perceives as having slighted or insulted him can learn. They're a lost cause to him, which is why he doesn't mind seeing them dead or see them destroyed.

What is not a lesson to you may still be a lesson to others.

On 10/3/2023 at 8:44 AM, sweetsunray said:

No, I don't. A lot of people have daddy issues. But not everybody goes the length that Tywin does. It's not the daddy issues that cause him to be a mass murderer. It's his personality, and the daddy issues are but the catalyst that were the excuse to implement it on.

It's similar to Cersei's case. Cersei uses particular slights (that did happen) as excuses to rationalize her brutality and hostility, but her narcissistic personality is prone to see anything as a slight anyway and any rejection would lead to narcissistic injury, which in a narcissist will lead to a deep hatred and anger. We all get seriously rejected in life and deeply disappointed, not getting what we desire or hoped for or expected or was promised to us. It's part of life. And yes it does hurt. So much sometimes that even normal empathic people get the breath knocked out of them for months or years, resulting in jadedness, retreat or even cynicism. But a healthy individual will be focused on learning to emotionally deal with the risk of rejection and will come to realize that even if they were rejected as a person, another person has a right to their own dreams and desires and that we may just not be that for someone else. That in fact, a lot of the rejection is not personal at all, but the natural result of an incompatibility. A narcissist like Cersei cannot learn this. They're stuck on it, and they are prone to see slights and rejection in people's words or behavior when there isn't even none intended. Hence, a particular rejection in her past is not the cause of her pathology, merely the excuse to externalize it. 

A similar idea can be linked to Tywin. He was prone to see rejection, not getting his way, etc as something deeply personal, instead of being able to put that into perspective. He would have done so even if he had a perfect amiable relation to his father.

To drive my point home: Sam has serious daddy issues. It does not make him into a young man wanting to kill any man who ever insulted him. I mention Sam, because the first thought that will come to your mind is "yeah, but Sam is different". Yes, that is exactly the point! Sam is an entirely different person who naturally responds different to slights and namecalling, etc. So, it's not the daddy issues or the insults, but the personality.

I don't really agree with this idea that if someone is reacting to an issue in one way, while another person to a similar issue in a different way, that means the former is not actually reacting to this issue at all. That's not how it works. People are all different. You can't just take Sam, say, well, he has daddy issues but he is not like Tywin, so that means Tywin doesn't actually have daddy issues.

I have also never claimed that Tywin is a healthy individual. But his entire behaviour is molded by his childhood. I am pretty sure George has created Tytos' character, the Reyne rebellion and all that history to essentially explain why Tywin is the way he is. Relationship between Tywin and his father is a constant thread that follows his character throughout the books. It literally explains Tywin's entire worldview, he saw what was happening with his father and is now trying his entire life to be not like him as much as he can. That's why he distrusts love, that's why he doesn't smile, a lot of his hatred towards Tyrion is because he sees his father in him. You think when he found out about Tyrion marrying a commoner, he didn't have flashbacks of his father? I am 100% sure he did. If you want to understand what makes Tywin tick, that's where you have to look at, and George is not subtle about that at all. It's very easy to just go and say: "well, look at what Tywin did, he did it because he is evil" but you are just ignoring basic set up of the character then. That doesn't mean that Tywin would have grown into Ned Stark without Tytos being the way he was, but he would still have been someone else who would have behaved differently too.

I don't remember Cersei using real former slights as a rationalization of her brutality to be a constant thing she did, by the way. I view the two characters a bit differently.

On 10/3/2023 at 8:44 AM, sweetsunray said:

It's not about rationality, but about irrational hatred and resentment.

So, your answer to "why would he be angry" is essentially "dunno, he is just irrational"?

On 10/3/2023 at 8:44 AM, sweetsunray said:

See, you're recognizing that Tywin made choices based on his emotions and feelings towards someone, not because he is rational.

Honestly, I think you have talked about rationality vs emotions way more than I did.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Dofs

[Gravity Grave]

I think it's inferred often enough that we're to believe he was responsible and it's completely inline with his ruthless nature to do whatever serves his purpose best. 

When the sack of KL was planned the issue of what to do about Aery's and any other Targaryens found wouldn't have been overlooked, he'd have instructed what was to be done with them.

[Quoth the raven,]

On 9/21/2023 at 5:55 AM, Equilibrium said:

I've been thinking about extent of Tywin's involvement in Elia's death over the years and I've come to no definitive conclusion so I would like to hear out the reasoning of fine folks here, since we will likely never have the answer spelled out.

We have Tywin explicitly go over the matter with Tyrion in ASOS Tyrion VI and we can take him at his word because he probably doesn't care about Tyrion's opinion enough to lie to him. On the other hand I think Tywin could have viewed Elia marrying Rhaegar as a slight to his family's honor by taking Cersei's place and he does have a history of using sexualized violence as punishment. If we take that view which was my initial hunch, we still have the dilemma whether Tywin did give THAT command or said nothing knowing the Mountain would make a mess of it if left to his own devices.

Counter to that could be an attitude that Tywin is too rational to be like that as he would see clearly that 1) Elia wasn't culpable in her marriage, her mother and Aerys are 2) losing her children would be more than enough of the punishment for any perceived slight 3) it's a dicey political move with no real practical benefit and real drawbacks, banking on the both Martells and Robert not doing anything drastic over it, which was far from given as we know how Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark can be.

Tywin is as responsible for what happened to Elia and the children as Jon Snow is for the crimes committed by Mance and the wildling women.  Both commanders unleashed savage criminals. 

[StarkTullies]

7 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Tywin is as responsible for what happened to Elia and the children as Jon Snow is for the crimes committed by Mance and the wildling women.  Both commanders unleashed savage criminals. 

Tywin ordered savage criminals to commit rape against an innocent victim.  Jon Snow tried to save an innocent victim from rape by a savage criminal.  There's a difference... and you know that.  And this thread has nothing to do with Jon Snow... and you know that.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Tywin is as responsible for what happened to Elia and the children as Jon Snow is for the crimes committed by Mance and the wildling women.  Both commanders unleashed savage criminals. 

Congratulations! This post has earned its place among the top 5 most idiotic, disingenuous and intellectually dishonest posts ever. Not an easy feat given the amount of idiocy, disingenuousness and intellectual dishonesty we are faced with daily. 
Well done!

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Congratulations! This post has earned its place among the top 5 most idiotic, disingenuous and intellectually dishonest posts ever. Not an easy feat given the amount of idiocy, disingenuousness and intellectual dishonesty we are faced with daily. 
Well done!

I think it is *the* most idiotic.

A person who approves the actions of the Boltons should favour the murder of Elia and her children.

[SeanF]

Tywin did the new regime a favour, by killing Elia and her children, and by unleashing terror on the people of Kings Landing.  He took upon himself much of the opprobrium for these actions, giving Robert room to plausibly deny responsibility, while also showing what could happen to those who failed to accept the new order of things.

And, for that, he was rewarded.  One can see his actions as rational, therefore, up to this point.

But, he ensured that in due course, his family would reap the whirlwind, as a result.  By failing to think several moves ahead, concentrating instead on immediate reward, he showed he lacked imagination.

[sweetsunray]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:02 PM, Dofs said:

Being happy over your enemy's death and hence winning the war is nothing unusual, especially if you have problems with empathy. What makes Joffrey especially awful and a bully is how he enjoys seeing people be humiliated and miserable with him having power over them. How he likes to see Sansa tormented, Tyrion, etc. Being a spectator here is important. And Tywin doesn't care about spectating.

Oh, so now you conveniently twist "enjoyment" into "being happy" because I brought up an example that doesn't fit your narrow perception on sadism.

On 10/6/2023 at 9:02 PM, Dofs said:

What is not a lesson to you may still be a lesson to others.

Framing an entire massacre of two houses, includng children as a "lesson" to the rest of Westeros comes down to denial.

On 10/6/2023 at 9:02 PM, Dofs said:

You can't just take Sam, say, well, he has daddy issues but he is not like Tywin, so that means Tywin doesn't actually have daddy issues.

Because  you're putting up a straw man argument here. I didn't deny Tywin has daddy issues. I pointed out that the way he deals with it is born from his personality, rather than the daddy ssue itself. That Sam and Tywin are two polar opposite personalities. Just like the daddy issue was not the reason that made Sam squeamish about blood or make him prefer books.

On 10/6/2023 at 9:02 PM, Dofs said:

I am pretty sure George has created Tytos' character, the Reyne rebellion and all that history to essentially explain why Tywin is the way he is.

Wrong! He wrote it as a backdrop to expose Tywin's personality, because Tywin pretty much provoked the Tarbeck rebellion, etc by making demands of them while he wasn't even lord and defied his father's decisions. He wrote it to expose Tywin for the mass murderer he is, not as some sympathy story. The whole sordid story only ever made me think even worse of Tywin. 

On 10/6/2023 at 9:02 PM, Dofs said:

So, your answer to "why would he be angry" is essentially "dunno, he is just irrational"?

Another straw man. I never said "I dunno". If you have to try and win a discussion with straw men, your arguments are weak indeed.

I already pointed out where the hatred stems from, and it predates from Tywin resigning from being Hand, long predates Rhaegar's defeat. His hatred existed long before he ever made up his mind that he would see Aerys Targaryen dead.

Edited October 7, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:02 AM, Dofs said:

He explains it to Tyrion as a rational thing because that's exactly how he views it in his head. 

A lot of people in this forum clearly disagree with you on this. And Tywin was not a POV character. You are just assuming Tywin is honest, and we think Tywin is full of shit. And ultimately, I think the textual evidence backs up Tywin actually being quite emotional and irrational (and hateful), not what you are saying. 

Again, explain to me how Tywin hating Tyrion is rational. Explain how having your son's wife raped is rational. What end goal did Tywin gain by hating Tyrion? How is having guardsman rape a woman....doing anything? How about when he had his father's mistress paraded around naked? How was it rational? It wasn't. None of these actions were rational, they were emotional. They were fueled by hatred of women and need for control, and sadism. And his hatred of Tyrion is fueled by the fact his wife died, and irrationally blaming a baby for that, and secondly that his son is deformed, and again, that he is a bigot who irrationally hates those with disabilities. (bigotry is ALWAYS irrational). 

[Dofs]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh, so now you conveniently twist "enjoyment" into "being happy" because I brought up an example that doesn't fit your narrow perception on sadism.

You didn't bring up any relevant examples, you took Joffrey, implied that if Joffrey is doing something bad, and Joffey is a sadist, that means that action must be a sign of sadism, assumed that Tywin also is doing the same thing, and made a conclusion that Tywin is a sadist.

You have made an assumption based on an assumption based on an assumption and are now complaining that I don't buy it . Let's remember the fact that Tywin doesn't actually show any enjoyment in the text in the first place before taking it for granted and start arguing about semantics between "enjoyment" and "being happy".

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Because  you're putting up a straw man argument here. I didn't deny Tywin has daddy issues. I pointed out that the way he deals with it is born from his personality, rather than the daddy ssue itself. That Sam and Tywin are two polar opposite personalities. Just like the daddy issue was not the reason that made Sam squeamish about blood or make him prefer books.

You did deny that Tywin's daddy issues have any impact on him and that, in practice, means that he doesn't have daddy issues, really.

Also, you are implying here that two people with daddy issues are supposed to behave the same way for some reason. You are again trying to prove that Tywin doesn't have daddy issues (or, ok, they are not relevant for him) because he doesn't behave like Sam.

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Wrong! He wrote it as a backdrop to expose Tywin's personality, because Tywin pretty much provoked the Tarbeck rebellion, etc by making demands of them while he wasn't even lord and defied his father's decisions. He wrote it to expose Tywin for the mass murderer he is, not as some sympathy story. The whole sordid story only ever made me think even worse of Tywin. 

It seems I am getting your point of view. It's either Tywin is someone who just wants to kill people, or he is sympathetic.

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Another straw man. I never said "I dunno". If you have to try and win a discussion with straw men, your arguments are weak indeed.

You can accuse me of whatever you want.

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I already pointed out where the hatred stems from, and it predates from Tywin resigning from being Hand, long predates Rhaegar's defeat. His hatred existed long before he ever made up his mind that he would see Aerys Targaryen dead.

What I understood from you is that Tywin's hatred comes from him being an emotional and irrational man. Which is what I wrote.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

A lot of people in this forum clearly disagree with you on this. And Tywin was not a POV character. You are just assuming Tywin is honest, and we think Tywin is full of shit. And ultimately, I think the textual evidence backs up Tywin actually being quite emotional and irrational (and hateful), not what you are saying. 

Again, explain to me how Tywin hating Tyrion is rational. Explain how having your son's wife raped is rational. What end goal did Tywin gain by hating Tyrion? How is having guardsman rape a woman....doing anything? How about when he had his father's mistress paraded around naked? How was it rational? It wasn't. None of these actions were rational, they were emotional. They were fueled by hatred of women and need for control, and sadism. And his hatred of Tyrion is fueled by the fact his wife died, and irrationally blaming a baby for that, and secondly that his son is deformed, and again, that he is a bigot who irrationally hates those with disabilities. (bigotry is ALWAYS irrational). 

First of all, argumentum ad populum is a fallacy, don't use it please.

And secondly, I think your post demonstrates pretty well as something I am going to fundamentally disagree with. You just take your own standard of what is rational and logical and are trying to apply it to Tywin, thinking that by default Tywin agrees with it. And as a result, you are disregarding literally everything that is being told by Tywin or about Tywin as either being lies or misdirect in order to fit with those standards. 

Yes, the actions you have described are irrational from your point of view, and from my point of view, and, I hope, from everyone who reads the books, but they don't have to be from Tywin's point of view. Look how horrible are the things that people historically thought of as rational before. In Middle ages, In the beginning of 20th century in some parts of Europe, look what religious fanatics have done before and are doing now in many places of the world. You can just have a fucked up worldview, that, in combination with personality traits, like lessened empathy, can make you a terrible human being. I don't see anything in the books that indicates that Tywin is not this. Like you said, we don't have Tywin's POV but abosiltely nothing indicates that he is an emotional, raging, irrational vulcano in his thoughts that he purposefully masks to others.

As an example from what I remember from GRRM's interviews, he said that Tysha was indeed a whore in Tywin's head. He didn't think of her as an innocent girl that he brutalized and then lied and gaslighted about to Tyrion and Jaime. That's literally how he saw her according to GRRM. He actually does rationalize things the way he says to others in his head as well.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Dofs