Did Tywin give THAT command?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

I've always thought that the motivation for Tywin to give an order as a revenge for being chosen as Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei to be flimsy, since by the time of the Sack Tywin should had been happy that he dodged a massive bullet of being tied to Targaryens through marriage.

But that isn't how Tywin thinks. EVERYTHING is about how he is the best, the Lannisters are the best. EVERYTHING. Everything is tied to how his house and he are perceived. Everything must go the way Tywin wants it to go, and anytime it doesn't, he does horrible horrible things in order to make sure it does. 

[Dofs]

13 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

But that isn't how Tywin thinks. EVERYTHING is about how he is the best, the Lannisters are the best. EVERYTHING. Everything is tied to how his house and he are perceived. Everything must go the way Tywin wants it to go, and anytime it doesn't, he does horrible horrible things in order to make sure it does. 

But if things don't go his way, he makes a show and a demonstration out of his punishment to make sure it doesn't happen again. That's how he works, you slight him, he punishes you and then makes a lesson out of you for others. 

And that's not how he behaves with Elia at all, he absolutely denies he had any part in it and tries to please the Martells instead, essentially demonstrating that what happened with Elia is wrong. Tywin just doesn't operate like that.

Tywin trying to distance himself from Elia's murder at all costs publicly only makes sense if he was actually angry at her still, with a personal anger, but why would he at the time of the Sack? That just doesn't make much sense.

[Lee-Sensei]

22 hours ago, Dofs said:

I've always thought that the motivation for Tywin to give an order as a revenge for being chosen as Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei to be flimsy, since by the time of the Sack Tywin should had been happy that he dodged a massive bullet of being tied to Targaryens through marriage.

If Tywin had been on Aerys' side from the start, the Targaryens might not have even lost the war.

[Dofs]

1 minute ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If Tywin had been on Aerys' side from the start, the Targaryens might not have even lost the war.

If Tywin wanted that, he would have saved Aerys anyway. He didn't need Cersei to be married to Raehgar in order to help Targaryens.

[Lee-Sensei]

7 minutes ago, Dofs said:

If Tywin wanted that, he would have saved Aerys anyway. He didn't need Cersei to be married to Raehgar in order to help Targaryens.

Why would he save the man that insulted his family and refused his marriage offer? That's the point. If Aerys had agreed to honor his family, he might have fought for Aerys from the start and saved the war. Or they could have lost.

[Dofs]

15 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Why would he save the man that insulted his family and refused his marriage offer? That's the point. If Aerys had agreed to honor his family, he might have fought for Aerys from the start and saved the war. Or they could have lost.

I am sorry, I thought you were arguing against my point that you have quoted? The idea that Tywin was upset he wasn't on the Targaryen side which added to his motivation to kill Elia is something I just have seen before.

[sifth]

38 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

If Tywin had been on Aerys' side from the start, the Targaryens might not have even lost the war.

I mean we're pretty much told how Tywin would have won the Battle of the Bells and it's probably true.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

I am sorry, I thought you were arguing against my point that you have quoted? The idea that Tywin was upset he wasn't on the Targaryen side which added to his motivation to kill Elia is something I just have seen before.

The argument is that Tywin wanted revenge for the insult. Aerys and Rhaegar chose another woman, instead of his daughter (not unlike Walder Frey wanting revenge on Robb for choosing Jeyne Westerling over one of the Freys). It's not that he'd be upset that he wasn't on the Targaryen side. It would be him being upset about the insult to his house.

[Dofs]

18 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The argument is that Tywin wanted revenge for the insult. Aerys and Rhaegar chose another woman, instead of his daughter (not unlike Walder Frey wanting revenge on Robb for choosing Jeyne Westerling over one of the Freys). It's not that he'd be upset that he wasn't on the Targaryen side. It would be him being upset about the insult to his house.

Right, but Tywin would see it as a slight, and they way he acts on slights is not how he acted with Elia, as I have explained in one of my posts earlier.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:16 AM, Equilibrium said:

Hahahaha squatting, no one's around LOL

By the Fourteen Flames, what a scandal! I call for a meeting of all freeholders!

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

But if things don't go his way, he makes a show and a demonstration out of his punishment to make sure it doesn't happen again. That's how he works, you slight him, he punishes you and then makes a lesson out of you for others. 

And that's not how he behaves with Elia at all, he absolutely denies he had any part in it and tries to please the Martells instead, essentially demonstrating that what happened with Elia is wrong. Tywin just doesn't operate like that.

Tywin trying to distance himself from Elia's murder at all costs publicly only makes sense if he was actually angry at her still, with a personal anger, but why would he at the time of the Sack? That just doesn't make much sense.

Yes, he is. He is petty constantly, and hiding his true feelings. Think of his feelings for Tyrion, and how horrible he is as soon as no one else is around to hear what he says about Tyrion. Tywin absolutely DOES operate like that. Also, I would not be surprised if it is revealed he took part in the planning of the Red Wedding, another event he lays the blame on other (eerily similar to the Elia situation in fact). You are missing the part with Shae also. He slept with Shae. Tywin slept with Shae. You still aren't getting his final moments. Tywin Lannister didn't shit gold. He is FULL OF SHIT. 

[Dofs]

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, he is. He is petty constantly, and hiding his true feelings.

When did he ever hide being slighted exactly? Reynes and Tarbecks, his father's mistress, his behavior with Aerys, him raiding Riverlands and then starting the actual war of Tyrion's kidnapping, the Tysha situation - Tywin overreacting on slights and making examples out of his punishments for them is literally one of his basic character traits. So what feelings are you saying he hides that are relevant in the Elia discussion?

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Think of his feelings for Tyrion, and how horrible he is as soon as no one else is around to hear what he says about Tyrion.

What should I think about exactly?

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin absolutely DOES operate like that.

Can you provide actual examples then?

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also, I would not be surprised if it is revealed he took part in the planning of the Red Wedding, another event he lays the blame on other (eerily similar to the Elia situation in fact).

I mean, you can be not surprised, but we are literally told that the planning was done by Lame Lothar. Also, the logistics of it makes it very unlikely.

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You are missing the part with Shae also. He slept with Shae. Tywin slept with Shae. You still aren't getting his final moments. Tywin Lannister didn't shit gold. He is FULL OF SHIT. 

It looks like you have started to rant here. Calm down, Tywin is only a book character.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Dofs

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:11 PM, sifth said:

I mean we're pretty much told how Tywin would have won the Battle of the Bells and it's probably true.

Maybe. Maybe not. By all rights, Tywin should have lost the Wot5K and killing Robert alone wouldn't end the war. There's too much that we don't know about the Rebellion to say definitively who would have won, but having Tywin on his side would have been a great boost to Aerys' war effort.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Maybe. Maybe not. By all rights, Tywin should have lost the Wot5K and killing Robert alone wouldn't end the war. There's too much that we don't know about the Rebellion to say definitively who would have won, but having Tywin on his side would have been a great boost to Aerys' war effort.

I mean one thing that led to Roberts victory, is Aerys choosing a bunch of idiots to be his Hand, in Tywin's place. Tywin is many thing.................most which are horrible, but the guy isn't stupid. Have a smart, blood thirsty Hand of the king, would probably have made the rebellion a lot closer.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I mean one thing that led to Roberts victory, is Aerys choosing a bunch of idiots to be his Hand, in Tywin's place. Tywin is many thing.................most which are horrible, but the guy isn't stupid. Have a smart, blood thirsty Hand of the king, would probably have made the rebellion a lot closer.

I agree that it probably would have been closer. It's definitely possible that they'd have won. I just don't think it was a guaranteed victory. And killing Robert wouldn't have ended the war. If anything, it would be another reason for Ned and Jon to fight on with Hoster behind them.

[sweetsunray]

I don't believe he explicitly ordered it. But he intended it with the choice of men he sent to those rooms.

Tywin is smart, but he is not as rational as some readers believe him to be. The whole case of Cersei as bride for Rhaegar goes way beyond the rational. He promises her she will be the prince's wife when she's little, but she has to keep it secret. Then he believes that by the end of the tourney at Lannisport, a betrothal will be public. Cersei is 10. But Aerys tells him no, he won"t marry his son to a servant's daughter. Aerys sends Steffon Baratheon all the way to Volantis to search for a bride, but ends up shipwrecked. Tywin has Cersei brought to court at 12. Nevertheless a year later, Aerys weds Rhaegar to Elia Martell. And still, Tywin keeps Cersei at court, refusing any other marriage deals for 3 more years. He only leaves court and takes Cersei with him to the Rock, once he learns Aerys picked Jaime to be KG. 

This isn't rational behavior, but persistent behavior.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

13 hours ago, Dofs said:

When did he ever hide being slighted exactly? Reynes and Tarbecks, his father's mistress, his behavior with Aerys, him raiding Riverlands and then starting the actual war of Tyrion's kidnapping, the Tysha situation - Tywin overreacting on slights and making examples out of his punishments for them is literally one of his basic character traits. So what feelings are you saying he hides that are relevant in the Elia discussion?

What should I think about exactly?

Can you provide actual examples then?

I mean, you can be not surprised, but we are literally told that the planning was done by Lame Lothar. Also, the logistics of it makes it very unlikely.

It looks like you have started to rant here. Calm down, Tywin is only a book character.

 

I’m not, but I will block you if you take this attitude. This forum has become remarkably well mannered and people are not doing this sort of snide personal insult to get people pissed off. Don’t do it. It’s not cute when you do this “I’m bending the rules but not actually saying the insult aloud so I didn’t do anything wrong.” attitude. We all know what you are implying, and I don’t need to calm down as I’m already extremely calm^^. 

1. Tywin says he doesn’t sleep with prostitutes. He does. 

2. Tywin presents a logical face to the world, including how he treats Tyrion when he hates Tyrion for completely illogical and emotional reaaons. He also hides from others how badly he treats Tyrion. 

3. He acts logical or like “I didn’t order ____” to do something, when it is 100% the goal. Tyrion and Cersei and Jaime all talk about it. Tywin saying something does not make it the actual truth about how Tywin acts. He doesn’t admit that he ordered Elia’s rape and murder because he doesm’t have to. It happened anyways and the desired effect still happened. He saves face “by not ordering it” but still hets the public revenge he wants. Another slight way he did this was by having Jaimie lie about Tysha. Remember that? Again; Tywin just made up what he wanted to save face while also getting the desired punishment he wanted. Tywin lies, constantly. No matter what, believing his words makes no sense.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Dofs]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I’m not, but I will block you if you take this attitude. This forum has become remarkably well mannered and people are not doing this sort of snide personal insult to get people pissed off. Don’t do it. It’s not cute when you do this “I’m bending the rules but not actually saying the insult aloud so I didn’t do anything wrong.” attitude. We all know what you are implying, and I don’t need to calm down as I’m already extremely calm^^. 

Tywin is a character that a lot of people are very emotional about which makes some of the discussions about this character very difficult. The way you wrote your previous post showed signs of this and I wouldn't want to participate in such discussions, hence my comment.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

1. Tywin says he doesn’t sleep with prostitutes. He does. 

I don't remember him ever saying it. He was always against public whoring and treating prostitutes as concubines, but when does he ever say he doesn't sleep with whores?

Besides, Martin has said that the whole Tywin/Shae situation is something that he hasn't revealed everything about and that Varys is involved in it as well, so this argument has an asterisk. 

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

2. Tywin presents a logical face to the world, including how he treats Tyrion when he hates Tyrion for completely illogical and emotional reaaons.

For Tywin the way he treats Tyrion is logical. That's his worldview. He doesn't pretend he hates Tyrion for some logical reasons while actually they are irrational all along. His reasoning is completely rational in his head.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

3. He acts logical or like “I didn’t order ____” to do something, when it is 100% the goal. Tyrion and Cersei and Jaime all talk about it. Tywin saying something does not make it the actual truth about how Tywin acts. He doesn’t admit that he ordered Elia’s rape and murder because he doesm’t have to. It happened anyways and the desired effect still happened. He saves face “by not ordering it” but still hets the public revenge he wants. Another slight way he did this was by having Jaimie lie about Tysha. Remember that? Again; Tywin just made up what he wanted to save face while also getting the desired punishment he wanted. Tywin lies, constantly. No matter what, believing his words makes no sense.

First of all, let's not use what he did to Elia as an example to prove what he did to Elia.

All the examples of "Tywin didn't order it" are only for the plausible deniability in the face of the law, but he always makes sure people know he did order it. When he sent Gregor raiding the Riverlands, he had a plausible deniability so that the Throne didn't have to act against him, but he sent Gregor specifically so that everyone would recognize him and know, it was Tywin. Tywin doesn't do sneak revenges to save face, his revenges are completely in the open and the victim would always know who did it.

This idea that Tywin is always trying to save face is just bizarre to me, Tywin wants people to know that he will destroy them if they cross him or House Lannister! That's how he makes sure people would be afraid to go against him. That's literally his MO. That's his worldview. That's how he sees that the world works. 

Also, with regard to Tysha, what face did he save exactly?

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

@Dofs You talk as though you are defending a politician or other public figure, but Tywin is not a real person. He is a character. We are meant to be doing a character analysis, not have a debate, where we defend one party at all costs. And I think you have badly misread the character. I do not think he acts logically, he WANTS to appear calm and logical, but he isn't. He often acts emotionally and out of personal pettiness/jealousy/desires. As I said probably in the first post you replied to, I think Tywin is full of shit. He wants to present a certain image, and I think that's all it is, an image. And I've already sprinkled my reasons for those thoughts throughout this comment thread, so I won't be repeating them. If you don't agree with them, that's okay. I don't agree with your take either, I think you are quite wrong about who Tywin is, and that you accept the POV of Tywin, or those who like Tywin, (despite him not being a POV) rather than the reality of Tywin. I think there are a lot of characters in book who think Tywin indeed gave that order (Tyrion ponders it for example). 

You disagree with my reasoning, but that doesn't mean my reasoning is wrong, merely that you disagree with it. I have no burden of proof anymore than you do. But Tywin is a proven liar, so suggesting he wouldn't lie about something is flimsy at best. And by the way, last thing, I didn't use "the order to murder Elia) as proof of it, I used a pattern of horrible actions that apparently Tywin didn't actually order as....suggested possible proof that he did it. I am doing a character analysis, and GRRM doesn't spell things out, as he expects his readers to read between the lines and figure things out on our own. That's why it is an analysis. 

[BalerionTheCat]

I would think Tywin was not believing Gregor and Amory to be reliable enough. To keep such order secret when the shit would hit the fan. I believe he sent them "to secure" Elia and the children. But knowing the men, he fully expected the outcome. While still able to deny the responsibility. What he told Tyrion must be exactly what he told everyone.