Rhaegar the Overrated

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, crowning her Queen of Love and Beauty, and eloping with her were insulting both to his wife, and his vassals.

Yes, it absolutely was. But again, Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and probably believed that it was more important than anything else.

[KingAerys_II]

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance-or perhaps by design-they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts, for despite his crimes Prince Rhaegar was no coward

Edited October 7, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

WRT Rhaegar, he seems well-regarded, by a lot of people, yet his behaviour seems so hard to defend.

That might be in part because most of his actions weren't that problematic.

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Like most others, I don’t think he raped Lyanna.  But, crowning her Queen of Love and Beauty, and eloping with her were insulting both to his wife, and his vassals.

The former was at best a footnote of Harrrenhal before later events. Rhaegar's possible insult of Elia had not lasting consequences, and the Starks should have felt honored. Robert's personal feelings remained personal back then ... and they were kind of strange, too.

The later thing might have been a big issue unless it was actually communicated pretty well to key figures without us knowing it yet. 

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

Doing nothing during the initial stages of the war was recklessly selfish.

Here we need to know why he didn't do anything. If it was because his father wanted his head in addition to Ned's and Robert's then he couldn't have done anything else.

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

And, assuming he married her bigamously, he was setting up a succession battle between his children by Elia, and his children by Lyanna.

That is clearly a non-issue as Elia produced a daughter and a son. So both a son or a daughter of Lyanna's or both could - and likely would - have been married to Elia's children, preventing any kind of animosity among the children.

That would have only not happened, I assume, if Lyanna hadn't given birth to a living child for years and decades.

[Kal-L]

18 hours ago, Legion88 said:

Imo, i don't think that Rhaegar was perfect or something, but he clearly wasn't the "spawn of satan" and he wasn't a rapist. I think it's clear his relationship with Lyanna was consensual.

Poor strawman and nobody buy into it. As pointed by others, the terms "rapists" and "spawn of satan" are yours.

Rhaegar is simply judged through the effect of his actions and the consequences it had for the realm and -especially- his family, as we actually do for every others characters on this forum. Only Rhaegar's case seems to be problematic, and thus based on supposed intents (as though intents trounced facts).

He and Aerys managed to lose a realm that had been held by the dragons for almost three centuries. Their family was slaughtered, they lost their home, and their surviving relatives had to live in exile like beggar. Robb, a 15-year boy is held accountable for being the Stark who lost the North, I see no reason for the much older, the much more advantaged and most of all the much more praised Rhaegar to be spared the "judgement".

18 hours ago, Legion88 said:

Facts are Rhaegar injured Robert so severely he could not campaign after the fight, stated even by Ned. They started out on horseback and ended up on foot, sword versus hammer. It was a good fight :/

This is not factual.

[BalerionTheCat]

He did things that had huge consequences. He did them because of prophecies and texts we don't know of. Possibly, he also talked with the Ghost of High Heart

He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.

This is Barristan talking. And you may believe him a fool for what he thought. But I would rather believe Rhaegar knew the Others were coming. And he did what he did according to that. Did his part of the prophecies. Whether he was right or wrong, we need the end of the story to decide. But so far, with what we know, I believe he is largely underrated and misunderstood by most.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

When Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy, he couldn't have known that Lyanna was going to die. So whatever plans he had must have been based on the assumption that she would live. 

What could those plans have been? Would he put both her and the baby into hiding somewhere?

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

When Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy, he couldn't have known that Lyanna was going to die.

Nothing is sure. These prophecies are full of death and sacrifices. He could have known believed they both would die. She could have known it too. Only thing sure was Jon was to live.

Edited October 8, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[frenin]

I think that Martin wants Rhaegar to be a tragic hero, whether he'll succeed at that we'll see. 

I do not think that he is overrated, we know he was a fairly beloved figure and that image survived his death, then again so did Daemon Blackfyre. The main thing Rhaegar has going for him is that he died young, in his prime and unfulfilled, so he is Westeros', and the fandoms, greatest what if, funnily enough had Robert been the one who died at the Trident, he'd be viewed similarly.

I do not believe for a second that Rhaegar had it in him to be a good ruler, whether he was too absent or too prophecy minded, Rhaegar caused his own House's destruction, fairly awful credentials if you ask me.

And for those who keep insisting about prophecies and how they are to be true because magic...

 

Quote

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

Both Rhaegar and the fans seem to have confirmation bias, but for every Daenys the dreamer there are dozens of Aerions and Eggs screwing themselves and everyone around them because of zealotry.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

11 hours ago, frenin said:

I think that Martin wants Rhaegar to be a tragic hero, whether he'll succeed at that we'll see. 

I do not think that he is overrated, we know he was a fairly beloved figure and that image survived his death, then again so did Daemon Blackfyre. The main thing Rhaegar has going for him is that he died young, in his prime and unfulfilled, so he is Westeros', and the fandoms, greatest what if, funnily enough had Robert been the one who died at the Trident, he'd be viewed similarly.

I do not believe for a second that Rhaegar had it in him to be a good ruler, whether he was too absent or too prophecy minded, Rhaegar caused his own House's destruction, fairly awful credentials if you ask me.

And for those who keep insisting about prophecies and how they are to be true because magic...

 

Both Rhaegar and the fans seem to have confirmation bias, but for every Daenys the dreamer there are dozens of Aerions and Eggs screwing themselves and everyone around them because of zealotry.

I like Egg, so him going out that way is pretty sad. I think he was one of the best Westerosi kings in spite of his flaws.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:43 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Only thing sure was Jon was to live.

It’s possible that the reason why Ned got so upset at the deaths of Rhaenys and baby Aegon was that he already knew or suspected that Lyanna might be pregnant with Rhaegar’s child, and that the same thing could happen to her own baby.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

My pointless two cents : I agree with @Craving Peaches, Rhaegar is overrated. Pretty much everything CP says is spot on. I will add one : We know that Aerys was doing horrible things to Rhaella. You know what I would do if my dad was doing horrible things to my mom? Stop him. The Kingsguard might not be able to stop him, but you'd think the crown prince would be able to.