Football: Sieg oder Spielabbruch!

[Consigliere]

6 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

You still think Rashford is better than Isak? 

Well, I think they are of a similar sort of level. Isak will probably end up being a more consistent goalscorer but Rashford is the better creator and will provide more assists, is a better dribbler and more effective at build up play. You were the one with the quite frankly ludicrous notion that Rashford is a vastly inferior player.

 

Quote

Shows what you know about football, about as most glory hunters that support a team from another country that they have no earthly reason to.  

Football is football. Who one supports and for whatever reason they chose to has no bearing on one's knowledge.

[Consigliere]

Birmingham City have confirmed that John Eustace will be leaving the club. Based on reports, it looks like Rooney will be replacing him. Birmingham fans will be hoping that this doesn't end up like the sacking of Rowett for Zola fiasco.

[BigFatCoward]

11 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Football is football. Who one supports and for whatever reason they chose to has no bearing on one's knowledge.

Tells you about the sort of person they are though. 

[Consigliere]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

Tells you about the sort of person they are though. 

Not really.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Tells you about the sort of person they are though. 

Oh please, do tell...

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, baxus said:

Oh please, do tell...

Lacking in moral fortitude.  

Support your local team, and if you support a team you have no link with, don't just pick the most successful/famous one.  'Glory Hunter' is an very specific and targeted insult for a reason, real football fans fucking hate them. 

[baxus]

6 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Lacking in moral fortitude.  

Support your local team, and if you support a team you have no link with, don't just pick the most successful/famous one.  'Glory Hunter' is an very specific and targeted insult for a reason, real football fans fucking hate them. 

And who exactly gave you the authority and the expertise to determine who has a link with what club and who doesn't and/or what is a good enough link?

[BigFatCoward]

14 minutes ago, baxus said:

And who exactly gave you the authority and the expertise to determine who has a link with what club and who doesn't and/or what is a good enough link?

its pretty self explanatory, and universally acknowledged (unless you are one).

Separate note, everyone is saying the sending off for the City player timewasting in WSL was ridiculous, but she was absolutely taking the piss with how long she took. 

 

[Consigliere]

FIFA aren't even being subtle about their preference to award the 2034 WC to Saudi Arabia. Spain/Portugal/Morocco joint hosts + allowing some games to be played in Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay neatly removes UEFA, CAF and Conmebol from bidding for 2034 leaving only AFC and Oceania eligible. Now they've also relaxed some rules over stadia to accommodate Saudi Arabia and FIFA are apparently employing an unprecedented fast-track process for bids to be submitted (possibly to discourage Australia from entering the bidding). Another December WC?

[Consigliere]

4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Separate note, everyone is saying the sending off for the City player timewasting in WSL was ridiculous, but she was absolutely taking the piss with how long she took. 

 

Heh, something we can agree on! Greenwood was quite clearly taking the piss there. It was a textbook yellow card for time-wasting which just so happened to be her 2nd yellow. Wish referees would do that sort of thing more consistently instead of being reluctant to show a yellow card for a clear yellow card offence just because a player has already been booked.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Consigliere

[BigFatCoward]

7 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Wish referees would do that sort of thing more consistently instead of being reluctant to show a yellow card for a clear yellow card offence just because a player has already been booked.

Fucking truth. Guimares definitely only stayed on yesterday for this reason, I'd have been very pissed off if I was West Ham. 

[Mexal]

18 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

its pretty self explanatory, and universally acknowledged (unless you are one).

Separate note, everyone is saying the sending off for the City player timewasting in WSL was ridiculous, but she was absolutely taking the piss with how long she took. 

I tend to disagree. It was 28s from the foul, took a few seconds for her to get the ball and people around her weren't moving. End of the day, it's the 39th minute, not the 88th and they can easily just add an extra minute or two onto the end of the half to compensate. I think it's stupid to think that 30s of "time wasting" in the first half could get you sent off.

[Wilbur]

9 hours ago, Consigliere said:

You have a short memory then or simply incredibly biased like Wilbur who likes to pretend that Ferguson invented pressuring of referees or engages in moronic conspiracies of Ferguson buying off referees. 

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ferguson invented pressuring referees, since I also remember Brian Clough.

But this kind of thing was new to the First Division / Premier League.  Up until Ferguson, you would get individual players who lost their minds, but it was a generally a solo performance, and no one thought that it was a good idea to join in the act on a regular basis.  In English or Scottish football, that behavior was considered the realm of Osvaldo Zubeldia and his type of total war manager.

Ferguson encouraged and normalized team confrontations of the officials, and it has been an issue since his reign.  There is a clear demarcation in the treatment of referees before him and after him, and officials wilted under that pressure.  As a result, other teams saw that putting pressure on the refs could benefit them, and here we are today.

One solution that I find attractive to reduce this behavior would be to mic up the refs such as the rugby codes do.  Rugby has issues with violence - how could they not, given the inherent nature of their game.  But they seem to get a handle on the players' emotions better than football, and one of the ways they do so is by communicating to the players clearly and transparently.  They also treat the players like adults, which is encouraged by the fact that we can hear what they say.

If the FA had a serious desire to clean up their act, they would embrace more transparency from the officials.  Mic up the refs, broadcast the discussions between the refs on the fields and the VAR staff, and make the game officials available for comment after matches.

As a player and then a coach, I always reacted negatively to being treated like a child or second-class citizen by officials.  On the other hand, referees who had themselves in hand and communicated calmly and openly with the players and coaches always soothed me and encouraged me to be a better person during competition.  We can't compete without officials; they are an integral part of enjoying the game.  Respectful communication is a foundation for good competition, and a key success factor in communication is clarity and transparency.  Give the managers, players and fans better clarity and transparency, and we will see less bad behavior.

It is one fairly straightforward step on the path back towards good sports.

 

[Consigliere]

15 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

<snip>

Yeah, micing up the officials might help. I also think that football needs sterner measures that are actually strictly enforced as well at least in the short term -- suspensions, fines, points deductions -- as harassing referees has become entrenched in football culture. The governing bodies have the power to stamp this behaviour out at the professional level in short order; they just choose not to for whatever reason(s). There's a growing shortage of referees coming through the system because of this as well and who can blame them? Getting harassed and threatened every weekend at grassroots level earning peanuts or doing it voluntarily is just not worth it.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Consigliere

[BigFatCoward]

32 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

 

But this kind of thing was new to the First Division / Premier League. 

They were such fucking wankers that team. That should have been about 6 red cards. The refs didn't help by being such absolute walkovers. 

[polishgenius]

Yeah I don't think we should be doing that again but I do think we need more people waving their hands around and shouting. Not necessarily just at the ref - just players in general who have a bit of dog in them,. At the moment it's just down to Bruno and Lisandro Martinez really. Fred was a loss in that respect. 

 

 

Rugby also as a much, much better handle on the rule that only the captain plus whoever the ref specifically wants a word with goes towards him. Every so often you see some effort to encourage that but it's not gonna work unless refs just start carding everyone who isn't the captain immediately. It'd have some drastic results early but it'd soon stop. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

In actual news. Headcoaches/manager market has seen some movements.

Augsburg (expectedly) pulled the trigger on Maaßen

Mendilibar got the sack at Sevilla

Garcia's position at Napoli is extremely insecure

Geraerts takes over at Schalke

Tite about to take over at Flamengo

Hrubesch temporarily comes out of retirement to take charge of Gemrany's womens' team, while Voss-Tecklenburg recovers from undisclosed health issues.

[lessthanluke]

9 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Lacking in moral fortitude.  

Support your local team, and if you support a team you have no link with, don't just pick the most successful/famous one.  'Glory Hunter' is an very specific and targeted insult for a reason, real football fans fucking hate them. 

Supporting clubs is just weird in general.
There is nothing "local" about professional clubs anymore other than where the ground is.
50 years ago your argument might have meant something when the players were also locals but nowadays not so much.

[BigFatCoward]

7 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

Supporting clubs is just weird in general.
There is nothing "local" about professional clubs anymore other than where the ground is.
50 years ago your argument might have meant something when the players were also locals but nowadays not so much.

This assumes that the product on the pitch, or the boardroom is what's relevant. 

It's about going with your mates, the sense of belonging and pride in your city (unless you are stoke, hull or boro, they have fuck all to be proud of). Its got almost nothing to do with success, unless you are a glory hunter. 

Picking your team because they are succesful is one step down from changing your team, neither speak to a person of character. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Now to something completely different.

I know you all love to read about sport/sport politics and fan scenes, particularly in Germany, and how this is not my personal fetish.

Anyway, this is about Fan Projects.

Short explainer. Fan Projects in Germany means clubs pay for Social Workers to work with their (organized) fan scenes. Main issue is prevention of violence and discrimination and making sure that travelling fans don't act like a horde of orcs/savages/horse punching geordies/Millwall. Usually when clubs have to pay for their fans lighting flares and acting otherwise unruly the clubs can part of the fines invest into improved security and in their fan projects to avoid a repetition. Main clients for them are young/juvenile fans.

With that explainer out of the way we come to the actual story.

This time it's about Karlsruhe's fan project. The employees of Karlruhe's fan project faced the prospect of coercive detention, because they did not want to give a statement to the police/help with their investigation. Their reasoning is pretty simple and quite convincing. If we cooperate with law enforcement that destory trust into our work, if people feel that this is not safe space they won't talk to us. Legally it's a grey area. (Which also applies to Psychologists btw.). There's a reasonable expectation of privacy by the clients and a legal obligation to keep their mouth shut, but unlike MDs and Lawyers there's no right to remain silent. (I know it's bonkers, but that's German law for you).

So what was the underlying crime/offense? Mid November a fan group celebrated its annivesary and they decided the proper way to do it was with pyros. They didn't take the roof of their new stand into account, which mean 10 people suffered from smoke inhalation. Police started its investigation, while the fan project organized a conversation between the fan scene and the victims. Investigators cauaght wind of that talk and had the rather one sided desire to talk to the three employees of the fan project (check above).The summons itself was already pretty damaging for the fan project. Did I mention, that those fan project are also involved with the security planning between police forces and clubs?

Up to now there was sorta unwritten to keep the fan projects out of criminal investigations for the above reasons. On the bright side, there are now legislative initiative to deal with that gaping hole (the missing right of refusal to testify).