Characters' Worst Decisions

[Craving Peaches]

Theon's worse decision was probably going back to the Islands in the first place. No one there, including his own family, valued him, whereas Robb actually listened to his counsel. If Theon doesn't go back he avoids the whole Winterfell trauma.

Ned should have accepted Renly's offer.

Renly should never have bothered with trying to treat with Stannis the Uncompromising and just sent Randyl at the head of an army to crush him.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Theon's worse decision was probably going back to the Islands in the first place. No one there, including his own family, valued him, whereas Robb actually listened to his counsel. If Theon doesn't go back he avoids the whole Winterfell trauma.

Ned should have accepted Renly's offer.

Renly should never have bothered with trying to treat with Stannis the Uncompromising and just sent Randyl at the head of an army to crush him.

Theon's position in the Iron Islands in the books is far from hopeless. In fact, he would have inherited. No matter what Balon wanted. The kingsmoot was only called, because he was believed to be dead. And even after Euron became king, he had to drown Sawane Botley for proclaiming Theon their rightful king. I do think that he probably should have stayed on the Stoney Shore though. It's clear from his chapters in ACOK and ADWD that he valued Robb's friendship and feels remorse for betraying him. I think Robb could probably understand that much.

Ned not accepting Renly's offer and turning to Littlefinger was one of his worst decisions honestly. I know that Catelyn trusted Littlefinger, but it was still a very bad decision.

[Groo]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:57 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Roose: Outing himself at the Red Wedding. He should have disguised his treachery and surrendered to the Lannisters immediately afterwards, giving him a plausible pretext for why he was granted Winterfell.

This is a tough one. Personally killing Robb is the kind of big move where he could expect a big reward from Tywin. Would working quietly behind the scenes to help Tywin be enough to get Winterfell?

[The Bard of Banefort]

35 minutes ago, Groo said:

This is a tough one. Personally killing Robb is the kind of big move where he could expect a big reward from Tywin. Would working quietly behind the scenes to help Tywin be enough to get Winterfell?

None of the other northerners were helping him, so probably. 

Granted, Tywin also married Tyrion to Sansa in order to claim Winterfell, so he clearly didn’t plan on Roose holding power for very long.

[Lee-Sensei]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

None of the other northerners were helping him, so probably. 

Granted, Tywin also married Tyrion to Sansa in order to claim Winterfell, so he clearly didn’t plan on Roose holding power for very long.

Tywin was a bigger fool than Moon Boy if he thought that Tyrion could claim the North after everything that the Lannisters had done. It does seem that he was trying to get every kingdom under his control.

Tyrion gets the North.

Cersei marries Wilas to expand into the Reach.

Joffrey gets the Crownlands and Westeros as a whole.

Tommen get's the Stormlands.

I'm surprised that he didn't give the Riverlands to Genna.

[Nevets]

12 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Tywin was a bigger fool than Moon Boy if he thought that Tyrion could claim the North after everything that the Lannisters had done. It does seem that he was trying to get every kingdom under his control.

Tyrion gets the North.

Cersei marries Wilas to expand into the Reach.

Joffrey gets the Crownlands and Westeros as a whole.

Tommen get's the Stormlands.

I'm surprised that he didn't give the Riverlands to Genna.

I don't think Tywin ever expected Tyrion to be able to claim the North.  I interpreted his marrying Sansa to Tyrion as more of a blocking move than anything else.  It means no one else can claim through her.  Any suggestion of Tyrion ruling there was probably a sop to Tyrion's pride to get him to go along.  If Tyrion succeeds, great; but Tywin isn't counting on it.

[csuszka1948]

It's a good list, although I don't think that Roose had a choice to surrender - the Boltons needed to participate in the slaughtering of the armies allied to Robv.

Cat arresting Tyrion and taking him to Lysa seems a horrible move in retrospect, but based on the information available to her, it was a very smart decision once he recognised her. I don't think she had any rational reason to assume that Littlefinger (risking his position to start a war) or Lysa (betraying her family) are playing her false.

[Groo]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:57 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Arya: Not requesting Jaqen kill someone more important than Chiswyck 

To me, the questions of when do you kill and why are a central part of Arya's story. Killing the stable boy in Kings Landing was pure survival, as was the fight against Lorch and his men. Weese and the Tickler were killings of personal vengeance. Dareon's death was supposedly enforcing the penalty for desertion. The ship insurer was the first time she killed because someone told her to and was potentially for justice. With the Faceless Men, Arya is all but guaranteed to be responsible for many more deaths, likely for many different reasons. I don't think Martin is looking to write about the development of a psychotic serial killer. I think he intends to deeply explore these questions with Arya.

Looked at from the perspective of politics and war, you're right. Not having Jaqen kill someone important was a big mistake. Looked at from the perspective of Arya's evolving reasons for killing, however, I'm not sure this even stands out.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Groo said:

To me, the questions of when do you kill and why are a central part of Arya's story. Killing the stable boy in Kings Landing was pure survival, as was the fight against Lorch and his men. Weese and the Tickler were killings of personal vengeance. Dareon's death was supposedly enforcing the penalty for desertion. The ship insurer was the first time she killed because someone told her to and was potentially for justice. With the Faceless Men, Arya is all but guaranteed to be responsible for many more deaths, likely for many different reasons. I don't think Martin is looking to write about the development of a psychotic serial killer. I think he intends to deeply explore these questions with Arya.

Looked at from the perspective of politics and war, you're right. Not having Jaqen kill someone important was a big mistake. Looked at from the perspective of Arya's evolving reasons for killing, however, I'm not sure this even stands out.

Shortly after naming Weese, Arya came to the realization she should have named someone important, but by then it was too late.  So she was on the expediency bandwagon fairly early on.

I have serious doubts that Arya will kill anyone else on behalf of the Faceless Men.  In my more conspiratorial moments, I wonder if even the insurance seller is really dead.  We have no actual confirmation.

Arya is poorly suited for the role of assassin for hire, and I'm sure the Faceless Men have figured that out by now.  That's probably why she now appears to be on the slow track.  I think her story is one of losing and recovering her identity, and the realization that vengeance and violence aren't as great as they now appear to be.

[Lee-Sensei]

Quellon Greyjoy not fostering out his children on the mainlands. Would Balon have really attacked Westeros if he'd grown up with the Tullys? Euron might have been born evil, but the other brothers could have potentially been salvaged. Victarion could grow up in Highgarden with the Tyrells, Urrigon could grow up with the Lannisters I guess and maybe Aeron could have grown up with the Starks.

[KingAerys_II]

On 9/25/2023 at 4:57 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ned: Tipping off Cersei is definitely one of his worst moves, but I'd place trusting Littlefinger even higher. Cersei probably would not have been able to capture Ned without his help.

Catelyn: Kidnapping Tyrion

Tyrion: Not executing Littlefinger

Cersei: The obvious answer is arming the Faith, but accusing Tyrion of Joffrey's murder was probably more disastrous for her. It set off a chain of events that got both Tywin and Oberyn killed and alienated Kevan. And Tyrion was a key asset to the Lannisters, however much they didn't want to admit it.

Jaime: This one is harder. You could argue that Jaime's mistakes since the beginning of the series have actually helped him, since they set him off on a journey of self-discovery. With that in mind, I'd say his biggest mistake was joining the Kingsguard.

Sansa: Divulging Ned's plans to Cersei

Arya: Not requesting Jaqen kill someone more important than Chiswyck 

Bran: Maybe warging Hodor? His worst decisions are probably still to come.

Robb: Marrying Jeyne Westerling

Jon: Ignoring the concerns of Bowen Marsh and the other Night's Watch men

Tywin: Going through with the trial and conviction against Tyrion, rather than putting a quick stop to it

Petyr: Divulging many of his secrets to Sansa. His biggest mistakes are likely still to come.

Sandor: Like Jaime, his bad decisions appear to be leading him to a better place. Overall, his blind obedience to the Lannisters is probably what caused him the most personal grief.

Daenerys: Going on a conquest without a long-term plan for the cities whose rulers she toppled. Rejecting Quentyn was probably also a poor decision.

Arys: Charging Areo Hotah

Arianne: Pretty much her entire queenmaker plot. The whole thing was asinine from the start.

Theon: Taking Winterfell

Asha: Not supporting Theon's claim from the beginning 

Doran: Pursuing his revenge plot. He saw how Dorne prospered under his years of restraint; now he's going to see what happens when he tosses his hat into the ring.

JonCon: Possibly how he handled the Battle of the Bells, although there's no guarantee that he would have won either way. Not convincing Aegon to continue onward to Meereen will likely have huge repercussions. 

Aegon: Taking Tyrion's stupid advice instead of teaming up with Dany

Stannis: Sitting on the incest revelation for as long as he did

Davos: Letting his sons join him in battle, perhaps? He's made remarkably few poor decisions so far.

Roose: Outing himself at the Red Wedding. He should have disguised his treachery and surrendered to the Lannisters immediately afterwards, giving him a plausible pretext for why he was granted Winterfell.

Walder: The Red Wedding

Barristan: Trusting the Shavepate. Or saving Aerys.

Victarion: Submitting to Euron

Aeron: Calling a kingsmoot instead of championing Asha

Margaery: Going to Pycelle for moon tea

Loras: Storming Dragonstone

Kevan: Leaving King's Landing after Tywin's death

 

What do you think were some of the characters' worst decisions?

Tyrion advice is not stupid, there is the pale mare disease out of the walls of Mereen, instead the attack of Victarion is effective because Ghiscari army needs ships to feed the soldiers. 

Then Stannis trying to win the throne starting from the Wall seems a suicide mission of the average king beyond the Wall, he defeated Renly thanks to Melisandre, that's his greatest accomplishment, and his strategy to defeat the Boltons is wrong, his soldiers are starving and sent an envoy to hire further mercenaries, he could have exploited the fact every Karstark is a prisoner, killing all them and taking the castle thanks to lady Karstark, that's what Jon is going to do, I guess, the thenns are Alys Karstark supporters

Edited September 28, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:31 PM, Groo said:

Let's put killing Rickard Karstark as Robb's second worse decision.

That would rank third.  The worst?  Breaking his oath to Lord Walder. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Worst Decisions

Jaime Lannister's was killing King Aerys.  Jon's oathbreaking at the Wall.  Dany trusted the witch Mirri Maz Duur.  Robb breaks his solemn oath to Lord Frey.  Oberyn getting cocky when he should let the poison do its work on Gregor.  We could go on. 

[Craving Peaches]

43 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jaime Lannister's was killing King Aerys

How? If he doesn't kill Aerys, he ran the risk of himself and half a million other people dying.

[Groo]

13 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

That would rank third.  The worst?  Breaking his oath to Lord Walder. 

I'm confused. The original post said Robb's worst decision was "Marrying Jeyne Westerling". How is that different from breaking his oath to Lord Walder?

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Groo said:

I'm confused. The original post said Robb's worst decision was "Marrying Jeyne Westerling". How is that different from breaking his oath to Lord Walder?

More to the point, Walder is Robb’s vassal.  Robb swore no oath to Walder, whatever the old pervert’s apologists like to claim.

Edited September 30, 2023 by SeanF

[Lee-Sensei]

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

More to the point, Walder is Robb’s vassal.  Robb swore no oath to Walder, whatever the old pervert’s apologists like to claim.

Walder wasn't Robb's vassal at the time and he definitely swore an oath. We can say that the Red Wedding was unjustified and still acknowledge that an oath was broken.

[SeanF]

40 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Walder wasn't Robb's vassal at the time and he definitely swore an oath. We can say that the Red Wedding was unjustified and still acknowledge that an oath was broken.

I do not recall Robb giving any oath to Walder, and he was definitely Robb’s vassal by the time he murdered him.

[Lee-Sensei]

54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I do not recall Robb giving any oath to Walder, and he was definitely Robb’s vassal by the time he murdered him.

Robb said that he broke his vow himself. I see no reason to deny that. You can say that he did it for a sympathetic reason, but he did break his word.

No. I'm pretty sure that the Frey's renounced any service to the Starks when they were tearing down and trampling his banners on the way out.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robb said that he broke his vow himself. I see no reason to deny that. You can say that he did it for a sympathetic reason, but he did break his word.

No. I'm pretty sure that the Frey's renounced any service to the Starks when they were tearing down and trampling his banners on the way out.

He broke his word, I agree. And, he offered recompense, which offer the Freys accepted.

The Freys were faithless vassals twice over, to Edmure, who was their overlord, and to Robb, who was their king.  And, they certainly can’t claim that Edmure wronged them in any way.

Edited October 1, 2023 by SeanF