Was Doran smart or did he just wasted a oportunity?

[Arthur Peres]

We all know Doran took no sides in the war of the five kings. We also know that he wants revenge of Tywin, by his own words he wanted to strip Tywin of everything that he held dear and only kill him after that. It's also clear that his revenge cannot be put in pratice without war.

During the War of the Five Kings, the Lannisters were surrouded in all fronts, they were facing multiple foes in multiple fronts. Jaime was a hostage, Tywin was cut off from the West, part of the mercenary hired by Tywin like a Tyrosh company and the trash under Vargo Hoat saw his weakness and changed sides. Everything was going bad for the Lannisters.

Tyrion even feared that Dorne could support one of the pretenders and gave them a free hostage in Myrcella.

Doran choose to sit on his hands, obey commands from Tyrion in placing his armies as a threat to lords under Stannis, they helped the Lannisters in ther war even if by declaration only. After that many set backs the Lannisters were able to win the war with the Tyrell alliance, they put down most of their enemies, and their position now is strong as ever. 

Doran lost tons of face by keeping the peace, his people wanted war, his plans after that are one big blunder after another. From Oberyn to Quentyn, even Arianne seems to be heading towards another blunder, and he will be fighting a war soon enough.

If Doran is willing to take the risk and support the Golden Company why not take the risk with one of the pretenders in the war of the five kings ? 

So was Doran smart in staying out of the war or did he waste a perfect oportunity to crush Tywin ? And if he did waste his chance who would be the better candidate to support ? 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Arthur Peres

[Lee-Sensei]

He wasted his opportunity. Doran seems smart in some ways. His Water Gardens speech really paints him as a wise man, but his schemes are lacklustre. He'd have been better off siding with Renly or Stannis to destroy the Lannisters. He left Viserys wandering around in the desert... totally unprepared to rule. His daughter is into her mid 20's and not only unmarried, but not betrothed. He didn't let her in on why either. His son got himself killed on Doran's mission. It's all just very sad. George seems to want to portray him as a real schemer, but most of his plans have been weak. He's a good ruler though. I have to give him that.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 Doran lost tons of face by keeping the peace, his people wanted war, his plans after that are one big blunder after another. From Oberyn to Quentyn, even Arianne seems to be heading towards another blunder, and he will be fighting a war soon enough.

If Doran is willing to take the risk and support the Golden Company why not take the risk with one of the pretenders in the war of the five kings ? 

So was Doran smart in staying out of the war or did he waste a perfect oportunity to crush Tywin ? And if he did waste his chance who would be the better candidate to support ? 

Obviously Doran Martell's revenge was not only revenge on the Lannisters, but that accursed Baratheon usurper bloodline which did not only not punish the murderer of his sister, niece, and nephew but also supplanted his brother-in-law and said nephew and niece on the Iron Throne.

By the time we learn more about Doran and his and Oberyn's machinations Robert and Renly are long dead and Stannis is the footnote of history he is destined to be. Which is something Doran also enjoyed and obviously worked towards since he intended to supplant Robert and his heir with a restored King Viserys III Targaryen.

The big obstacles to make the revenge complete are still the Lannisters. But it doesn't stop with Tywin. Doran's success means a Targaryen monarch with Arianne or Quentyn at his/her side ... and that means that all the royal pretensions and ambitions of Tywin Lannister and his house are destroyed for good. Because they will fight against that with teeth and claws. 

Neither of that could have been accomplished by way of supporting some Baratheon pretender. They were never friends nor allies of House Martell.

And sure enough - Viserys, Dany, Aegon are all tools to a point in such a revenge plan ... but the plan is about restoring the old status quo of a Targaryen with a Martell at their side as the guys in charge. Doran can't accomplish that by supporting a bloody Baratheon.

[KingAerys_II]

Actually I don't know what he expects from Daenerys when he speaks about Fire and Blood, Armory Lorch, Tywin, the Mountain, Kevan are all dead, there is no more need to seek vengeance 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He wasted his opportunity.

“We princes make our careful plans and the gods smash them all awry” is pretty much him admitting it.

[KingAerys_II]

About the Baratheon bloodline Cersei almost wiped out House Baratheon 

[sifth]

The whole Viserys marriage, just feels like a retcon to me and doesn't logically make sense. He's going to marry his daughter to him, but provides him no help while he wonders the waste lands, with no food or money. I love you George, but this one hurts my head.

[Lee-Sensei]

6 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

About the Baratheon bloodline Cersei almost wiped out House Baratheon 

The Lannister's have basically removed the Baratheons from power for now, but none of that was Doran's doing.

1 minute ago, sifth said:

The whole Viserys marriage, just feels like a retcon to me and doesn't logically make sense. He's going to marry his daughter to him, but provides him no help while he wonders the waste lands, with no food or money. I love you George, but this one hurts my head.

Viserys should have been prepared. Whether Aegon will live up to this remains to be seen. I personally doubt it, but Viserys was completely unprepared to retake the Seven Kingdoms.

Quote

"Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them".

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

The whole Viserys marriage, just feels like a retcon to me and doesn't logically make sense. He's going to marry his daughter to him, but provides him no help while he wonders the waste lands, with no food or money. I love you George, but this one hurts my head.

Viserys was fine. He was obviously cared for by some people or else he would have died five minutes after Willem Darry bit the dust. He was only 12-13 years old then. At the most. He is pretty penniless ten years later ... but still a honored guest of a rich-as-hell magister and able to arrange a marriage between his little sister and a savage king.

And he didn't need to be prepared to be some kind of super king. He would have been a nice platinum-blond figurehead. A guy who would allow Arianne to run the show. People fool themselves if they view Viserys as a sadistic nutcase. He wanted to be marry his sister, be loved and treated with respect, that was all. Had he gotten all or some of that he would have been the happiest man in Westeros.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

36 minutes ago, sifth said:

He's going to marry his daughter to him, but provides him no help while he wonders the waste lands, with no food or money.

What I don’t understand is what Doran would do if Dany wasn’t married off to Khal Drogo and there was no pontential Dothraki invasion of Westeros. Especially since The Golden Company refused to support Viserys.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys is, maybe, the weakest Targaryen ever existed, there was nothing good in him, for example, Aerion was known to be cruel and sadistic, but he was a skilled warrior who fought with the Second Sons and almost defeated Duncan who became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, instead Viserys was completely ridicolous, he lacks of every skill to conquer the throne again. 

The problem is that Varys, Vargo Hoat almost killed every person involved in the sack of King's Landing including Pycelle and Myrcella is trapped in Dorne with Rosamund 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Viserys is, maybe, the weakest Targaryen ever existed, there was nothing good in him, for example, Aerion was known to be cruel and sadistic, but he was a skilled warrior who fought with the Second Sons and almost defeated Duncan who became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, instead Viserys was completely ridicolous, he lacks of every skill to conquer the throne again. 

The problem is that Varys, Vargo Hoat almost killed every person involved in the sack of King's Landing including Pycelle and Myrcella is trapped in Dorne with Rosamund 

Plus Ser. Barry told us he was showing signs of becoming his father and we're shown this when he treats Dany like crap for most of the first book; threatening to have her raped and so on.

I wonder how Doran would feel about marrying his daughter to such a person.

Edited September 30, 2023 by sifth

[KingAerys_II]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

Plus Ser. Barry told us he was showing signs of becoming his father and we're shown this when he treats Dany like crap for most of the first book; threatening to have her raped and so on.

I wonder how Doran would feel about marrying his daughter to such a person.

After giving birth I think Arianne would have asked Tyene to poison him, then there is Daenerys that could have married Oberyn

[Lee-Sensei]

8 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Viserys is, maybe, the weakest Targaryen ever existed, there was nothing good in him, for example, Aerion was known to be cruel and sadistic, but he was a skilled warrior who fought with the Second Sons and almost defeated Duncan who became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, instead Viserys was completely ridicolous, he lacks of every skill to conquer the throne again. 

The problem is that Varys, Vargo Hoat almost killed every person involved in the sack of King's Landing including Pycelle and Myrcella is trapped in Dorne with Rosamund 

Viserys was raised as an outcast. Tbf, he never had a much of a chance to be better.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Viserys was raised as an outcast. Tbf, he never had a much of a chance to be better.

I mean Dany turned out to be a pretty great person and she was born in exile as well.

[Lee-Sensei]

8 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Dany turned out to be a pretty great person and she was born in exile as well.

I was talking about his competence, more than his morality. Aerion Brightflame was a terrible person, but he at least had some recognizable skills.

[Groo]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously Doran Martell's revenge was not only revenge on the Lannisters, but that accursed Baratheon usurper bloodline which did not only not punish the murderer of his sister, niece, and nephew but also supplanted his brother-in-law and said nephew and niece on the Iron Throne.

My problem with this is there isn't much rejoicing in Dorne about Robert and Renly's deaths. The Martells aren't sitting around saying "That's Robert and Renly taken care of. Now we just need to take care of the Lannisters." It's clear from all their conversations that their primary hatred was always for the Lannisters.

More importantly, they have a very active notion of revenge. They didn't just want Tywin dead. They wanted to be the ones to do it. I think it's more than fair to ask if they blew their chance at revenge during the war. Renly was only a boy during Robert's rebellion. He didn't actually do anything against them. Why not support Renly and thoroughly crush the Lannisters? Why not be cynical about it, too? Support Renly, wipe out the Lannisters, elimate the other Baratheons, and then later support Viserys against Renly?

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Groo said:

My problem with this is there isn't much rejoicing in Dorne about Robert and Renly's deaths. The Martells aren't sitting around saying "That's Robert and Renly taken care of. Now we just need to take care of the Lannisters." It's clear from all their conversations that their primary hatred was always for the Lannisters.

More importantly, they have a very active notion of revenge. They didn't just want Tywin dead. They wanted to be the ones to do it. I think it's more than fair to ask if they blew their chance at revenge during the war. Renly was only a boy during Robert's rebellion. He didn't actually do anything against them. Why not support Renly and thoroughly crush the Lannisters? Why not be cynical about it, too? Support Renly, wipe out the Lannisters, elimate the other Baratheons, and then later support Viserys against Renly?

That's because Doran's revenge wasn't about "the accursed Barateon bloodline". It was about Robert personally, because he never gave them justice for what the Lannisters did. It was always about the Lannisters.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[KingAerys_II]

Daemon Blackfyre won a tournament at the age of 12, when a man is weak without any kind of human skill, there is no justification 

[Lee-Sensei]

57 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Daemon Blackfyre won a tournament at the age of 12, when a man is weak without any kind of human skill, there is no justification 

Eh? Not really. Some people are naturally born gifted. Some have to work at it. It's entirely possible that Viserys was destined to suck, but with the right training and education, I'm sure that he could have become competent in at least one or two areas.