Was Doran smart or did he just wasted a oportunity?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Tywin's respect for Doran indicates to me that he's supposed to be a great schemer.

Not necessarily. Tywin might simply believe that Doran is a respectable leader, and it's not hard to see why when his peers are the likes of Mace Tyrell, Balon Greyjoy and Lysa/Sweetrobin. 

Doran also isn't as impulsive as his brother Oberyn and is easier to talk to.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lee-Sensei]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Not necessarily. Tywin might simply believe that Doran is a respectable leader, and it's not hard to see why when his peers are the likes of Mace Tyrell, Balon Greyjoy and Lysa/Sweetrobin. 

Doran also isn't as impulsive as his brother Oberyn and is easier to talk to.

He has another quote about how careful Doran is and how he's a man that weighs and judges every action. I do think that Tywin considers Doran a very shrewd player of the game. Not unlike Olenna. On Balon, it's weird, but Tywin sounds like he respects Balon too of all people. Maybe he gives Balon more credit, because he remembers etting his ships burned at port (by Victarion and Euron).

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He's very wise.

Shoulda listen to Ellaria.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

30 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He has another quote about how careful Doran is and how he's a man that weighs and judges every action.

Yes, but that still doesn't mean that he views Doran as a schemer.

[sweetsunray]

On 10/8/2023 at 8:57 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

However, I have one small bone to pick, we don't really know what Viserys's shitty life was like. Daenerys is vague at best at what they experienced growing up, however....I don't get the feeling she grew up in luxury (which she was experiencing in Qarth). She had dragons in Qarth, Viserys...did not. And, Daenerys almost gets assassinated in Qarth, so...if that is your argument, what if Viserys is telling the truth, what if he actually had assassination attempts on his life. I think it probably is overexaggerated (due to him being paranoid), but maybe there is more to it than we know. We just don't know. 

1. The first 5 years he lives in Braavos in comfort
2. Dany makes a comparison to Viserys when in Qarth, having to "beg" people for ships and armies.
3. Doran confirms Viserys and Dany were guests with the archon of Tyrosh (he wanted to send Arianne there as cupbearer to meet Viserys), and Dany's Valyrian has a Tyroshi accent, indicating they lived with the archon for long enough to have her acquire a permanent Tyroshi accent.

All in all, this mostly is comparable to noblemen and royalty who fled France or the Soviet Union after the respective revolutions. Yes, "begging" for stuff none of their hosts are interested in gifting, and "impoverished" in comparison to the prior privileged life, but nothing like "smallfolk". The last few years seemed more of an issue, but it all points to Viserys' attitude just making it more of a pain and trouble than an entertainment gain to have him at home for the merchant princes or archons, or other powerful men with no interest in Westeros like Illyrio has.

We know for a certainty that Robert never ordered an assassination until the one when Dany's pregnant.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

1. We know for a certainty that Robert never ordered an assassination until the one when Dany's pregnant.

The sorrowful man who attempted to assassinate Dany wasn't hired by Robert, and you just said that Viserys's attitude could cause more issues. 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The sorrowful man who attempted to assassinate Dany wasn't hired by Robert, and you just said that Viserys's attitude could cause more issues. 

Viserys claimed the assassins were the Usurper's. If there were any, they weren't.

Dany knows why the sorrowful man was hired. But yeah, he may have been threatened or told to leave because of trouble he caused: like demanding or threatening or insulting his hosts or someone else important for not gfting him an army. You know just entitled and obnoxious.

Edited October 11, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Viserys claimed the assassins were the Usurper's. If there were any, they weren't.

Dany knows why the sorrowful man was hired. But yeah, he may have been threatened or told to leave because of trouble he caused: like demanding or threatening or insulting his hosts or someone else important for not gfting him an army. You know just entitled and obnoxious.

I’ve never claimed Viserys wasn’t entitled and obnoxious. He is. He wasn’t born that way. He was educated to he that way. I really feel my points are whoosing over everyone’s heads here. 

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I’ve never claimed Viserys wasn’t entitled and obnoxious. He is. He wasn’t born that way. He was educated to he that way. I really feel my points are whoosing over everyone’s heads here. 

Rhaegar was raised by the same people and turned up rather sane, by all accounts and is mostly loved by everyone who remembers him. I know, I know, exception, but I hate the logic that Visery's never had a chance, because he was raised to be a monster. Heck look at Cersei's kids, 2 out of 3 of them are perfectly sane kids.

The fact of the matter is, incest babies do have a high probability of coming out insane.

[Odej]

 

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Rhaegar was raised by the same people and turned up rather sane, by all accounts and is mostly loved by everyone who remembers him. I know, I know, exception, but I hate the logic that Visery's never had a chance, because he was raised to be a monster.

To be fair, Rhaegar spent the first seventeen years of his life with a narcissistic and foolish but not mad father. Viserys only knew Aerys worst version.

But also to be fair, what do we know about Viserys' education to say he was raised to be bad?

Acording to Barristan, queen Rhaella protected him from the worst of Aerys behavior and apart from that we have to keep it in mind that noble parents, especially a king, didn't raise their children like it's commom in our modern society. Tutors did that job, in Westeros maesters and septans. I don't believe for one moment Aerys spent many time with his second son and nothing in the books sugests otherwise much less that Aerys abused him. So it's seems Viserys had know ideia about his father trully nature. 

Viserys was seven when his mother and him went to Dragonstone and after she died Willem Darry take care of him and his sister. For all we know about him from Daenerys, Willem was kind to them so at what point of his life was Viserys raised badly?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Odej

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, Odej said:

Acording to Barristan, queen Rhaella protected him from the worst of Aerys behavior and apart from that we have to keep it in mind that noble parents, especially a king, didn't raise their children like it's commom in our modern society. Tutors did that job, in Westeros maesters and septans. I don't believe for one moment Aerys spent many time with his second son and nothing in the books sugests otherwise much less that Aerys abused him. So it's seems Viserys had know ideia about his father trully nature. 

Agreed.

And even in these conditions, Viserys was becoming like his father, nothing could have prevent him to fall into madness.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

And even in these conditions, Viserys was becoming like his father, nothing could have prevent him to fall into madness.

Viserys might have not have been aware of his father's nature, but he was aware of his own nature and he saw nothing wrong in it.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Rhaegar was raised by the same people and turned up rather sane, by all accounts and is mostly loved by everyone who remembers him. I know, I know, exception, but I hate the logic that Visery's never had a chance, because he was raised to be a monster. Heck look at Cersei's kids, 2 out of 3 of them are perfectly sane kids.

The fact of the matter is, incest babies do have a high probability of coming out insane.

I am not suggesting he didn't have a chance. He did. But he also wasn't born to be evil. IN different circumstances, he could have been an okay person. My point has never been to say that Viserys had the worst circumstances possible, or that that everyone in bad circumstances will end up bad, but rather that...given better circumstances, or even just a random flip of the coin choice (or a series of them) that person could have been different. My point has always been that people are not born mad or born evil, but rather are a result of circumstances. Viserys raised by Eddard and Catelyn Stark might have been a good person. 

Everyone is taking the wrong angle. You are taking the angle of : This person didn't end up bad, so therefore the person who end up bad was always going to be bad. But that isn't my point. It's the opposite. Just because Viserys ended up bad in a situation where Daenerys ended up good, doesn't mean there isn't a different situation where Viserys could end up good. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, Odej said:

Acording to Barristan, queen Rhaella protected him from the worst of Aerys behavior and apart from that we have to keep it in mind that noble parents, especially a king, didn't raise their children like it's commom in our modern society. Tutors did that job, in Westeros maesters and septans. I don't believe for one moment Aerys spent many time with his second son and nothing in the books sugests otherwise much less that Aerys abused him. So it's seems Viserys had know ideia about his father trully nature. 

 

First : @Odej : I actually like some of your points. This is more a general response to many fans, not a specific one to you, but I wanted to focus on the tutors. 

The point about the tutors I've seen several times. I live in Korea, where most kids are raised by tutors. I am in fact...one of those tutors. Yet, the kids behavior...follows the parents behavior. When I have a particularly selfish student, almost always, the parent is also particularly selfish. When a student is particular dismissive of my rules or dismissive of me as a person (basically look down on me as though I am a peasant), the parent almost always has the exact same attitude. Many of my students go to private academies or are with tutors for upwards of 10 hours per day. Their parents often work 50-70 hours per week. Despite this...they still take after their parents. 

See, we have the books, we see how the parents interact with their children. Cersei in fact..has interacted with Tommen in every single chapter I've read so far. Catelyn and Eddard constantly interacted with their children. Jaime, Cersie, and Tyrion are always obviously fucked up by Tywin, and they all have daddy issues. Every single one of them. I could keep going, but..no, the existence of tutors does not stop chlidren from wanting to take after their parents. Tutors are servants...not parents, and the kids are raised to view those tutors as servants. Now, can some kids become better people because of tutors, well I certainly like to think so. However, do they usually? No. Honestly, the impact I have on my students is minimal, and if I did have a huge impact, I'd probably be fired. For example, if I convinced one of the rich spoiled kids to be kinder and look at everyone as equals, their rich spoiled parents would almost certainly mark that down as a "bad influence" and fire me. Not that this is always the case, but the nice parents don't mind that I teach their children to be nice (so my impact is still minimal). Look at how Stannis treats Cressen, his tutor, for example. He doesn't treat him as a parent. He treats him as a servant...and at that, he treats him quite poorly if you ask me. 

Viserys was raised to be a spoiled rich pampered noble. The same as Joffrey. The same as many other spoiled rich pampered nobles in these books. If you really think he wasn't, I don't know...do you think children are born believing they deserve a bunch of stuff? They aren't. No child of poor people has ever said these kind of things to me. Only rich spoiled kids talk like Viserys or Joffrey. I'm not saying poor kids can't be badly behaved, but it's a very different attitude. I don't give a shit who spoiled Viserys or taught him he should treat servants like shit, or that it was his right to abuse those under him, but he was trained to think these ways. The concept he wasn't...is honestly crazed. I'm sorry, it's crazed to think people aren't trained. Human beings have almost no instinctual behavior. Everything we do is learned. Everything. Viserys was trained. Then he was abandoned (and yes that can cause trauma, even if Willem Darry was a saint, your parents and everyonen you know being killed at the age of 7..is going to cause trauma). Then he was passed around, probably acted like a rich entitled little asshole, which earned him no friends, making Viserys probably increasingly isolated. At the time we see him, he has 0 friends, hell...he doesn't even really have acquaintances. Who does he even spend time with outside of Daenerys? No one likes Viserys...you can say that is for good reason...but no one likes him. Viserys is a selfish, entitled, prick, an abuser who had an amazing sister who kept trying to give him love even when all he gave her was hate, anger, and abuse....yet Viserys was still MADE. He is a result of his up bringing, a result of his circumstances, and a result of what people educated him to believe. He, and Joffrey to by eht way, act like spoiled children, because they ARE spoiled children. And given a different upbringing, given different parents or different tutors, different circumstances, etc etc, they could have ended up different. No one is born evil or bad, Period. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[BlackLightning]

I just want to come in here and push back against the sentiment expressed by @sifth and @KingAerys_II. Circumstances absolutely matter.

Living in impoverished conditions does something to your mind. It changes you. Take these two women for example: Abby and Becky. Both have 24 hours in a day. Abby can work from home for 6 hours a day and have enough time and money to shop for and then cook good food. After all, she can afford to live in a good neighborhood and part of what makes a good neighborhood are good stores. Becky however has to work 10 hours just to have the money to get food but she has to travel an hour to get shop for good food. By the 12th hour of the day, Abby has all her nutritional and financial needs taken care of and she has time for multiple hobbies while Becky still hasn't even fed herself. So, Becky has to decide if she is going to cut corners and settle for cheap, fast and bad food or go the extra mile to get good food.

Living in impoverished conditions that are unsafe does even more to your mind. If everyone who lives in an certain area is unemployed or barely employed, then their landlord probably doesn't have enough money to consistently maintain and renovate the old buildings they live in. And if that's the case, then they definitely don't have the money to pay to fix the broken roads around the buildings that they live in. Before you know it, that community is unsafe.

There's a specific reason why the poorest areas are the most dangerous areas even if it is a low crime area. And we all know that with poverty comes higher (and arguably, more violent) crime.

It's not an excuse for Viserys' behavior. But it is a reason. If he had grown up differently, he (and by default, Daenerys) would've turned out differently.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I am not suggesting he didn't have a chance. He did. But he also wasn't born to be evil. IN different circumstances, he could have been an okay person. My point has never been to say that Viserys had the worst circumstances possible, or that that everyone in bad circumstances will end up bad, but rather that...given better circumstances, or even just a random flip of the coin choice (or a series of them) that person could have been different. My point has always been that people are not born mad or born evil, but rather are a result of circumstances. Viserys raised by Eddard and Catelyn Stark might have been a good person. 

Everyone is taking the wrong angle. You are taking the angle of : This person didn't end up bad, so therefore the person who end up bad was always going to be bad. But that isn't my point. It's the opposite. Just because Viserys ended up bad in a situation where Daenerys ended up good, doesn't mean there isn't a different situation where Viserys could end up good. 

Just trying to point out that some people are born insane; incest babies in particular. You’re right, it can be a trait learned, but likewise it can also come as natural as breathing for others, because they suffer from mental illness. I don’t know which corner Viserys falls in, but I lean more into him being born broken, because of his sibling’s turning out quite sane, compared to him.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

54 minutes ago, sifth said:

Just trying to point out that some people are born insane; incest babies in particular. You’re right, it can be a trait learned, but likewise it can also come as natural as breathing for others, because they suffer from mental illness. I don’t know which corner Viserys falls in, but I lean more into him being born broken, because of his sibling’s turning out quite sane, compared to him.

Most people with mental illness are not "bad". They in fact are usually more in danger of being victims of violence then the perpetrators of it. If Viserys suffers from a mental illness, that doesn't explain his sadistic actions toward Daenerys, or the other negative traits he displays. I suppose it could play into it, but I'd argue he is mostly just a selfish spoiled man who thinks it is his right to treat others like crap (and I think that is all learned, not the result of a disorder). 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Odej said:

Viserys was seven when his mother and him went to Dragonstone and after she died Willem Darry take care of him and his sister. For all we know about him from Daenerys, Willem was kind to them so at what point of his life was Viserys raised badly?

So, he was 12 when Darry died. Add another few years for Dany to retain a Tyroshit accent, and he was 14-15 or even older once Viserys had to start journeying and experiencing more impoverished circumstances. Basically the worst living circumstances were during his young adulthood.

Yeah, I don't see the "he was raised badly" either

[KingAerys_II]

Viserys was Joffrey without power

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, he was 12 when Darry died. Add another few years for Dany to retain a Tyroshit accent, and he was 14-15 or even older once Viserys had to start journeying and experiencing more impoverished circumstances. Basically the worst living circumstances were during his young adulthood.

Yeah, I don't see the "he was raised badly" either

I have repeatedly used examples that he was spoiled more than impoverished (with the difficult times being a contributing factor to his behavior, but not the main cause). You know : Rich people freaking suck. In these books, GRRM draws attention constantly to how horribly the noble class treats everyone who is not noble. It's a constant theme. Viserys is just one of many, many nobles doing horrible things to other people. You want a reason that Viserys is so horrible to Daenerys? Because that is the only person he can be horrible to. Meanwhile, other nobles in these books are busy being horrible to peasants. Sadistic cruelty from the noble class to the impoverished class is almost the norm, at least in how it is painted in these books. 

Viserys is controlling and beats up Daenerys. Khal Drogo murders and rapes hundreds of people. Is Khal Drogo also "born insane"? Post-war looting, murder, rape, etc. is shown to be common place in this world over and over and over again. Are all the soldiers "born bad" or "born insane" who do these horrible acts? Basically, Viserys treats Daenerys how like....a significant portion of the nobles in these books treat poor folks. Are they all born insane/bad? 

Or crazy thought, are they the result of their society. Is Viserys just yet another example of the result of the dehumanizing rhetoric of his society. A society that normalizes treating human beings this way. A society that normalizes the rape of women by more powerful men. A society that normalizes treating anyone below you like shit. 

The problem is not that Viserys was born poor and suffering. The problem it is essentially a.o.k. for nobles to treat everyone below them like crap. And yes, Viserys was raised to believe that. So was Rhaegar most like. Daenerys...well based on what we see, maybe not actually. I get the feeling Daenerys didn't have a lot of direct parenting/tutors, etc. Maybe it actually made her a better person. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall