How would you rate Tyrion's performance as a Commander at the Battle of the Blackwater?

[Lee-Sensei]

People often talk about the military commanders in these books, but Tyrion is often overlooked. He was trained by a Master-at-Arms, but has comparatively little experience when put up against Tywin Lannister, Ned and Robb Stark, the Baratheon brothers etc. This is for obvious reasons. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate his performance. Yes. He was going to lose, but he held out long enough for Tywin and the Tyrells to come in and save the day. I'm thinking about making one for Barristan too.

[Craving Peaches]

7?

Morale was also impaired by Cersei's decision to remove Joffrey from the sight of the troops but Tyrion made the best of it. If he hadn't managed to hold out as long as he did, Stannis would have taken the city and then I suspect a lot of the inhabitants would die of starvation as King's Landing was besieged.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

7?

Morale was also impaired by Cersei's decision to remove Joffrey from the sight of the troops but Tyrion made the best of it. If he hadn't managed to hold out as long as he did, Stannis would have taken the city and then I suspect a lot of the inhabitants would die of starvation as King's Landing was besieged.

I was thinking 7 too. With 5 being the average. He wasn't the greatest of all time, but he performed competently. Better than many people probably would have expected in-universe, given his lack of experience.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

7?

Morale was also impaired by Cersei's decision to remove Joffrey from the sight of the troops but Tyrion made the best of it. If he hadn't managed to hold out as long as he did, Stannis would have taken the city and then I suspect a lot of the inhabitants would die of starvation as King's Landing was besieged.

Without Tyrion there, Cersei would have essentially made sure Stannis had the gates opened for him I think, lol. She would have pulled Joffrey even earlier. Joffrey could have joined in by firing crossbows at King's Landing citizens, maybe the mob would have killed Cersei and Joffrey before Stannis even broke in, lol. 

[CassDarry]

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I was thinking 7 too. With 5 being the average. He wasn't the greatest of all time, but he performed competently. Better than many people probably would have expected in-universe, given his lack of experience.

What would you think he could of done to get 10?

[John Suburbs]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:17 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

People often talk about the military commanders in these books, but Tyrion is often overlooked. He was trained by a Master-at-Arms, but has comparatively little experience when put up against Tywin Lannister, Ned and Robb Stark, the Baratheon brothers etc. This is for obvious reasons. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate his performance. Yes. He was going to lose, but he held out long enough for Tywin and the Tyrells to come in and save the day. I'm thinking about making one for Barristan too.

He stepped up when the time came, but the only thing he commanded was a sortie. And I don't think it's entirely clear that the wildfire explosion was Tyrion's idea. It may have come from Cersei's (which might have originated with Tywin?). Tyrion did organize the more conventional measure to launch it on the enemy with clay pots. And even his chain provided the means for the enemy to cross the river, which the wildfire had effectively blocked. And then after snarking at men in armor crossing the water on wet slippery decks, Tyrion, in is own armor, does the exact same thing, and almost dies.

So I would give Tyrion a 5.5 for command skills. Maybe higher for bravery, and perhaps a 3 for intelligence.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:17 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

People often talk about the military commanders in these books, but Tyrion is often overlooked. He was trained by a Master-at-Arms, but has comparatively little experience when put up against Tywin Lannister, Ned and Robb Stark, the Baratheon brothers etc. This is for obvious reasons. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate his performance. Yes. He was going to lose, but he held out long enough for Tywin and the Tyrells to come in and save the day. I'm thinking about making one for Barristan too.

Commendable but unrealistic. Requires us to just buy it. 

[The hairy bear]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And I don't think it's entirely clear that the wildfire explosion was Tyrion's idea. It may have come from Cersei's (which might have originated with Tywin?).

In ASOS Tywin gives Cersei the credit for the wildfire.

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 And even his chain provided the means for the enemy to cross the river, which the wildfire had effectively blocked.

But the chain prevented the ships to retreat downriver, and created zone of congestion where the ships that had been hit by wildfire set ablaze the ones that had not.

Without the chain, much more ships would have been able to escape the wildfire, and they could have ferried much more men to the other side than the reduced number of soldiers that were brave enough to cross the river through a bridge of burning wreckage about to collapse.

[Groo]

On 10/1/2023 at 3:14 AM, Craving Peaches said:

7?

I think that's a fair grade. It's always hard to judge military leaders when they're put in difficult positions where a big "win" isn't possible. Tyrion didn't have the forces to crush Stannis or sweep his army from the field. Tyrion was in a perilous defensive position where the question is just how long you can hold out. If Kings Landing had held out for weeks or months, then Tyrion would have looked like a hero. The relief army came fairly quickly, however. He gets credit for not collapsing right away but Tyrion didn't really have a chance to make a major impression on people one way or the other since relief came so quickly.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 10/1/2023 at 10:53 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Without Tyrion there, Cersei would have essentially made sure Stannis had the gates opened for him I think, lol. She would have pulled Joffrey even earlier. Joffrey could have joined in by firing crossbows at King's Landing citizens, maybe the mob would have killed Cersei and Joffrey before Stannis even broke in, lol. 

From what I remember, didn't Joffrey actually perform decently at the Blackwater before Cersei had him pulled?

On 10/1/2023 at 12:36 PM, CassDarry said:

What would you think he could of done to get 10?

That's a good question. I guess my 7 ranking was mostly about him not performing brilliantly, aside from his wildfire plan (that was inspired in part by Cersei). I guess if I wanted to nitpick, he didn't appoint loyal guardsmen. When he was betrayed, it left his army bereft of leadership. He didn't also appoint many deputies.

11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He stepped up when the time came, but the only thing he commanded was a sortie. And I don't think it's entirely clear that the wildfire explosion was Tyrion's idea. It may have come from Cersei's (which might have originated with Tywin?). Tyrion did organize the more conventional measure to launch it on the enemy with clay pots. And even his chain provided the means for the enemy to cross the river, which the wildfire had effectively blocked. And then after snarking at men in armor crossing the water on wet slippery decks, Tyrion, in is own armor, does the exact same thing, and almost dies.

So I would give Tyrion a 5.5 for command skills. Maybe higher for bravery, and perhaps a 3 for intelligence.

I don't think it's fair to say that Tyrion only commanded the sortie. He was clearly in charge for the majority of the Battle and I find it much less likely that the wildfire plan was mostly Cersei. I agree that it was inspired by her though. Tyrion also had his wildlings wage a guerilla campaign against Stannis that left him blind to the arrival of Lannister and Tyrell reinforcements.

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Commendable but unrealistic. Requires us to just buy it. 

Why do you think that it was unrealistic? Because he lacked experience?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

From what I remember, didn't Joffrey actually perform decently at the Blackwater before Cersei had him pulled?

He was acting as a rallying point for the Goldcloaks. I'd argue that was partially due to Tyrion's planning though, Cersei might not have even let him be on the battlements. Honestly, there is an argument that Cersei seriously hindered Joffrey as a King. NOw granted, he was young, but...what like 2 years younger tahn Robb? Robb was literally like leading his troops and stuff...and his mother just trusted him to do it. Or if we take another approach, I think Edric Dayne is YOUNGER than Joffrey and was .....an outlaw in the Riverlands (granted I doubt his parents would approve, lol). Like, honestly, Joffrey probably should have been a squire to some knight. Many ohter princes were right? And it seemed like Joffrey wanted that. Now of course, I don't think Joffrey should be on the front lines of the battle or anythiing, but....like why wasn't he involved. Oh, to go in family, weren't Martyn Lannister and....something Frey also younger than Joffrey and squires? Like....it wsa actually kind of odd that Joffrey wasn't better trained/equipped as a knight, and I think that's on Cersei. 

[Lee-Sensei]

42 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He was acting as a rallying point for the Goldcloaks. I'd argue that was partially due to Tyrion's planning though, Cersei might not have even let him be on the battlements. Honestly, there is an argument that Cersei seriously hindered Joffrey as a King. NOw granted, he was young, but...what like 2 years younger tahn Robb? Robb was literally like leading his troops and stuff...and his mother just trusted him to do it. Or if we take another approach, I think Edric Dayne is YOUNGER than Joffrey and was .....an outlaw in the Riverlands (granted I doubt his parents would approve, lol). Like, honestly, Joffrey probably should have been a squire to some knight. Many ohter princes were right? And it seemed like Joffrey wanted that. Now of course, I don't think Joffrey should be on the front lines of the battle or anythiing, but....like why wasn't he involved. Oh, to go in family, weren't Martyn Lannister and....something Frey also younger than Joffrey and squires? Like....it wsa actually kind of odd that Joffrey wasn't better trained/equipped as a knight, and I think that's on Cersei. 

I'm sure that it was Tyrion's planning. I just meant that Joffrey was brave during the battle in the books. I think Joffrey's actually decent. He seemed to do okay in his sparring match against Robb when they were at Winterfell. He also has Jaime's genetics, so he's tall and strong for his age. Bigger than Robb and Jon, even though he's 2 years their junior. I can imagine that Cersei coddled him though. Much like Lysa. Younger people than him have lead armies in asoiaf before. Like the Blackwood during the Dance. I don't think Joffrey should have been doing it though. He doesn't seem to have a good mind for warfare. I'll grant that he was brave though.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In ASOS Tywin gives Cersei the credit for the wildfire.

But the chain prevented the ships to retreat downriver, and created zone of congestion where the ships that had been hit by wildfire set ablaze the ones that had not.

Without the chain, much more ships would have been able to escape the wildfire, and they could have ferried much more men to the other side than the reduced number of soldiers that were brave enough to cross the river through a bridge of burning wreckage about to collapse.

Tywin gives Cersei credit for ramping up the wildfire production, not for the barge idea.

 

It's not that the chain prevented a retreat downriver, but all the way back to the bay. If that were to happen, then Tyrion would have won the battle, because Stannis, or at least his army, would have fled. And since Tyrion didn't know about the wildfire barge (apparently), he had no reason to suspect any of it would be on fire, and this would have made it even easier for Stannis' men to cross and maintain the assault on the city.

Edited October 3, 2023 by John Suburbs

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don't think it's fair to say that Tyrion only commanded the sortie. He was clearly in charge for the majority of the Battle and I find it much less likely that the wildfire plan was mostly Cersei. I agree that it was inspired by her though. Tyrion also had his wildlings wage a guerilla campaign against Stannis that left him blind to the arrival of Lannister and Tyrell reinforcements.

True about the wildlings, but he didn't do much commanding at the battle until the sortie. And even then, he was caught off-guard. He started at the Mud Gate along the river, since that was the most obvious, and had to scramble when the main assault came across the tourney grounds to the King's Gate.

And it seems that he did know about the wildfire barge before it happened, but it's hard to say whether that was his idea or not. Tywin gives the credit to Cersei for kickstarting the wildfire production, but not the barge.

So that's why I give him a 5.5.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

True about the wildlings, but he didn't do much commanding at the battle until the sortie. And even then, he was caught off-guard. He started at the Mud Gate along the river, since that was the most obvious, and had to scramble when the main assault came across the tourney grounds to the King's Gate.

And it seems that he did know about the wildfire barge before it happened, but it's hard to say whether that was his idea or not. Tywin gives the credit to Cersei for kickstarting the wildfire production, but not the barge.

So that's why I give him a 5.5.

Do you really think that idea was Cersei's? Tyrion was in effective command. Joffrey was their king, but he's a child and no Benjicot Blackwood. As the King's Hand, the planning for the battle would fall on him.

[Alester Florent]

I think the manner of the wildfire's deployment was Tyrion's idea, but the inspiration to use it at all - possibly against Stannis or other attackers of King's Landing - certainly came from Cersei. Nevertheless I have no problem crediting Tyrion with its use because it's one thing to have a resource available and another to deploy it in an effective manner.

To my mind, Tyrion's real masterstroke was not the wildfire or the chain (both of which arguably backfired to an extent - the wildfire undoubtedly caused a lot of friendly fire casualties among the KL fleet and probably damaged morale generally; the chain contributed to the "bridge of ships" effect) but sending the Vale clansmen to restrict Stannis's reconnaissance. This contributed to the destruction of Stannis's fleet but also to the ability of Tywin and Mace to come upon him undetected, which was what determined the battle. 

I'd be happy to give him a 7/10, maybe an 8, for his overall command. 

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Do you really think that idea was Cersei's? Tyrion was in effective command. Joffrey was their king, but he's a child and no Benjicot Blackwood. As the King's Hand, the planning for the battle would fall on him.

Hard to say. Tywin credits Cersei for kickstarting the wildfire production, but he doesn't say anything about the barge. Tyrion seems to have known that the barge was necessary at the time of the explosion, along with the mutual destruction of both fleets, but whether he is just making a judgement in the moment or it was planned is unclear.

Would the planning for the battle fall to the Hand, or the regent? Or both?

[Alester Florent]

33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Would the planning for the battle fall to the Hand, or the regent? Or both?

This is one of the essential problems of jurisdiction throughout ACoK really. Under normal circumstances, in a battle where both king and Hand are present, the king would command, or delegate that command to the Hand. The Hand would certainly be expected to pick up operational and logistical responsibilities. The king might also name another commander, or take command personally. We see, for instance, Renly delegating command prior to the intended battle at Storm's End, and it's likely he would make the same delegations but retain overall command even if Mace were present. Stannis, at the Blackwater, doesn't seem to place me in any particularly significant command position. 

Indeed, had Jaime been present at King's Landing, he would almost certainly have commanded the defence even though both Cersei and Tyrion "outrank" him: in fact putting him in charge would probably be the one thing Cersei and Tyrion could have agreed on. 

But in this situation what we have is essentially a deputy monarch and a deputy Hand. Moreover, while Cersei is queen regent on paper, everyone knows that the actual Hand is the regent in all but name, and the queen regent will defer to the Hand. And normally while the king and the Hand would act in concert and if the Hand didn't follow the king's wishes he would be replaced, here, the acting Hand and the regent can't work together.

Moreover, the king, while technically underage, is wilful and sits the Iron Throne himself, and few will be willing to cross him directly, which adds another person to the mix. So the question of who is actually in charge bedevils the court, with split loyalties, people picking sides, trying to play both sides, etc. and dealing with this is Tyrion's whole plot for the book. 

There is the further complication that Cersei, while she may technically outrank Tyrion, is a woman and therefore isn't expected to take battlefield command (indeed, doesn't). So whatever role she might play in the planning, she is not the operational/tactical commander during the battle itself. 

The question is then one of de facto command, rather than de jure: who do the relevant subcommanders report to during the battle/campaign and who do they take orders from? From what we see, this is Tyrion: all the Vale clansmen report to him, as does Jacelyn Bywater, and the Hound before he deserts. Even Joffrey seems to defer to him on tactical matters, and when he leaves Mandon Moore as his personal representative, he puts him at Tyrion's disposal. Cersei's one intervention of note is to remove Joffrey from the field, but had Joff refused (as, if he understood and cared about the morale implications, he would have done, and Tyrion would have supported him in this) it's unlikely Cersei could have forced the issue. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lee-Sensei]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Hard to say. Tywin credits Cersei for kickstarting the wildfire production, but he doesn't say anything about the barge. Tyrion seems to have known that the barge was necessary at the time of the explosion, along with the mutual destruction of both fleets, but whether he is just making a judgement in the moment or it was planned is unclear.

Would the planning for the battle fall to the Hand, or the regent? Or both?

What regent? Tywin put Tyrion in charge while he was fighting the war and Cersei was never trained for this stuff.

[John Suburbs]

13 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

What regent? Tywin put Tyrion in charge while he was fighting the war and Cersei was never trained for this stuff.

Cersei is Queen Regent. She is the ruling sovereign until Joffrey comes of age. She outranks Tyrion.

Tyrion was never trained for this stuff either. He just reads a lot.