Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[IlyaP]

12 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

I don't see the problem with a lack of "resolution" with the Seanchan.  There needn't be even if Jordan wasn't going to write Mat + Tuon.  Things don't have to be wrapped up in a nice tidy bow. 

This was always a feature with the Wheel of Time, not a bug. Jordan himself in interviews said repeatedly that not all stories would get properly wrapped up, and that as in life, some things would be resolved, and other things would not be. This was always his narrative intention. But I suppose if one was not aware that this was part of what he set out to do with this project, it would be perplexing. 

[Gertrude]

6 hours ago, Slurktan said:

I don't see the problem with a lack of "resolution" with the Seanchan.  There needn't be even if Jordan wasn't going to write Mat + Tuon.  Things don't have to be wrapped up in a nice tidy bow.

My issue with that whole situation is not that they formed an alliance. It's two things, really. One, just disappointment that the ticking time bomb secret of the sul'dam didn't amount to anything. The other is that Mat - a character I love - is totally fine being the toy of Tuon, the Queen of an evil empire. Sure, he says he doesn't approve, but he still loves his little Empress and that killed the last bit of joy I had in him. (Sanderson's writing of Mat being another nail in the coffin - no blame to Sanderson, it just is what it is.) The only way I can salvage Mat in my mind is by reminding myself that there was likely an outrigger novel planned that would deal with this question (hopefully).

[IlyaP]

33 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

The other is that Mat - a character I love - is totally fine being the toy of Tuon, the Queen of an evil empire.

I never, ever, ever understood this. I can't see the Seanchan as anything other than a vile, malignant, slaver empire, and so therefore, the idea of making *any* kind of alliance with such a noxious and awful group of people just makes no sense to me. 

[Gaston de Foix]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I was never reading the books for the brilliant writing. Jordan was a decent writer, but nothing special IMO. Sanderson is fine. I don't prefer the simplistic style, I think Sanderson refers to it as 'window pane' or something. He doesn't like the writing to get in the way of the story. Simplistic is not the same as bad, it's just not my preference. I started reading WoT at a time when Jordan's style was pretty standard and it didn't bother me, which is about all I can say about it. It was always about the story - which is why I stuck it out through the slog and beyond.

Same.  I read a lot, and fast, so clunky writing doesn't usually bother me.  I've read most of Sanderson's published works.  This particular sentence struck me as worthy of the Bulwer-Lytton contest because, well, let's just look at it again: 

"He had hated to leave Mat with Mashadar, but was confident—from a look Mat had given him after falling—that his friend could survive the mist, and knew what he was doing." 

(i) Chapter 46 ended on a cliff-hanger with Mat having been speared by Mashadar.  We have been conditioned to expect such an event to spell Mat's demise (see Sammael; and also Egwene's death); 

(ii) Perrin immediately leaves Mat for the Wolf Dream for...reasons apparently set out in that sentence and goes to do something else;

(ii) Perrin's emotional state goes from "hate" to "confidence" in 9 words.  Actually, let's be charitable, ignore the actual words used and say that his emotional state goes from "strong guilt" to "assured purpose".  Why?

(iii) Because he simultaneously concludes that Mat is going to "survive" and "knew what he was doing" all from a look delivered from dozens of feet away while falling from your horse in surprise from an unexpected attack;  that's quite some telepathy/body language going on.  Kudos to Mat from taking the time out from being speared (apparently to death) to reassure Perrin; 

(iv) You know what, let's accept that Perrin can infer all of that from a look that Mat gives him with a ridiculously high degree of confidence. The cherry on the cake is the weird redundancy of the sentence stating that Mat was telegraphing both his future physical state ("survival") and his capability to handle the situation.  Why not simply say "had a trick up his sleeve"?  

It might even have been better to just leave the plot-hole of Perrin abandoning Mat in silence.  The fix is just so...bad. 

[End/Rant]. 

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

I never, ever, ever understood this. I can't see the Seanchan as anything other than a vile, malignant, slaver empire, and so therefore, the idea of making *any* kind of alliance with such a noxious and awful group of people just makes no sense to me. 

As bad as they are, the Seanchan are better than the Shadow and Rand and company were fighting for the fate of the world, so couldn't afford to refuse any possible allies.

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

As bad as they are, the Seanchan are better than the Shadow and Rand and company were fighting for the fate of the world, so couldn't afford to refuse any possible allies.

...So, teenage me *hated* the Seanchan. Adult me? Doesn't have a much better opinion. If you were teaching a class on this, and had to make a real world analogy to this...how would you go about it? 

[Slurktan]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

One, just disappointment that the ticking time bomb secret of the sul'dam didn't amount to anything. The other is that Mat - a character I love - is totally fine being the toy of Tuon, the Queen of an evil empire. Sure, he says he doesn't approve, but he still loves his little Empress and that killed the last bit of joy I had in him. 

Because it wasn't a ticking time bomb to anyone but Sul'dam, nobody else cares as long as they have their weapons.  Mat forces himself into love because he wants a happy marriage.  At no point in the books would Mat care about good empire or bad as he'd break the rules whenever regardless so not sure of the problem there.  Besides he already has Tuon changing things slightly just by influencing her with being a "bad boy".

[Slurktan]

3 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

...So, teenage me *hated* the Seanchan. Adult me? Doesn't have a much better opinion. If you were teaching a class on this, and had to make a real world analogy to this...how would you go about it? 

From a historical standpoint you can't.  At one point or another everybody is a slaver.

[karaddin]

My issues with the Seanchan resolution were the same as Gertrude's. And "no one but the Sul'dam cared" is not satisfying to me. The entire system is built on sincerely held fear of the power that can be wielded by those who channel, with the revelation that the Sul'dam themselves can channel this fear should be extended to them and they should be left with no one to hold the leash. Obviously you can feel differently about it, but it's not objectively wrong for us to feel this was an issue raised and not paid off.

14 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

...So, teenage me *hated* the Seanchan. Adult me? Doesn't have a much better opinion. If you were teaching a class on this, and had to make a real world analogy to this...how would you go about it? 

Yeah the show really reminded me just how much I hated them - it had faded a little over time but all came roaring back.

[IlyaP]

8 minutes ago, karaddin said:

My issues with the Seanchan resolution were the same as Gertrude's. And "no one but the Sul'dam cared" is not satisfying to me. The entire system is built on sincerely held fear of the power that can be wielded by those who channel, with the revelation that the Sul'dam themselves can channel this fear should be extended to them and they should be left with no one to hold the leash. Obviously you can feel differently about it, but it's not objectively wrong for us to feel this was an issue raised and not paid off.

Yeah the show really reminded me just how much I hated them - it had faded a little over time but all came roaring back.

Paid off in the books, you mean?

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, IlyaP said:

Paid off in the books, you mean?

Yup.

[IlyaP]

1 minute ago, karaddin said:

Yup.

...I'm just gonna have to somehow reread these books again. I'd been on a book-reading kick all this year and then September and all its goddamn releases came along and now it's like "Duuuur, what's a book?"

[Gertrude]

40 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Because it wasn't a ticking time bomb to anyone but Sul'dam, nobody else cares as long as they have their weapons. 

Tuon is a sul'dam and she is able to easily shake it off and justify why it didn't matter. Like I said, I think it's very likely this would have been one of the outrigger novels and there could be some sort of resolution there. Since we will never get them, the way the books just brushed it off didn't sit well with me.

And why the hell did RJ call them outriggers? This is the only time I ever heard this term used this way. Just word RJ liked?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Gertrude

[fionwe1987]

It's not just that the Seanchan are utterly loathsome to channelers. They also practice regular slavery. And I'm sorry, but "follow our rules, allow us to take your daughters if they can channel, and face slavery yourself if you don't follow our intricate set of rules" is not a good system, even if it depresses crime and brings "order".

Worse, none of the main characters bought it, as of KoD. Mat left Tuon saying he'd likely meet her next on the battlefield: 

Quote

“Perhaps later. You could return to Ebou Dar with me. You have an honored place in the Empire, now.”

He did not hesitate before shaking his head. There was no honored place waiting for Leilwin or Domon, no place at all for the Aes Sedai or the Band. “The next time I see Seanchan, I expect it will be on the field somewhere, Tuon.” Burn him, it would be. His life seemed to run that way no matter what he did. “You’re not my enemy, but your Empire is.”

“Nor are you my enemy, husband,” she said coolly, “but I live to serve the Empire.”

Mat went from unhesitatingly refusing to join the empire and prepared to face them in battle to "I can live with this" with no character development in that area. 

I also have no idea how Rand's interactions with them could be called "good". The genocide he was planning before his personal revelation was obviously not a solution, but he went from there to caving in on the damane, once again, with no real time spent dealing with what it means to do so. 

The Seanchan were not some minor aspect that was left dangling. RJ's work ended with all major characters clearly morally repulsed by them, and preparing to fight them. 

Obviously, they wouldn't, and cooperation would occur. But the books just forced that through in a way that made a mockery of all the main characters and their morality. 

The world doesn't have to be neatly tied in a bow. But the Seanchan aren't a minor element of the books, and the thematically, the books end up in a pretty noxious place because of how the series ends things with them.

And no, if aliens invade, slavery wouldn't suddenly become ok. I'm sure there will be people who will compromise with slavers, but I don't think I'd read a story about them as heroes, honestly. Nor would I personally make that choice. I'd rather die at the hands of unknown aliens than work with known monsters who plan to continue being monsters. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by fionwe1987

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Slurktan said:

From a historical standpoint you can't.  At one point or another everybody is a slaver.

No, I'm not a slaver. Some remote ancestor of mine probably was, but that isn't the issue here. The Seanchan are current, active slavers. And the books end with them actively enslaving the (female) villains left alive, and we're supposed to be cheering on, I think? That's utter horseshit, not good writing. 

When/if the show gets here, I hope they liberally change things and actually address the issue. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by fionwe1987

[David Selig]

3 hours ago, IlyaP said:

...So, teenage me *hated* the Seanchan. Adult me? Doesn't have a much better opinion. If you were teaching a class on this, and had to make a real world analogy to this...how would you go about it? 

An obvious historical analogy is World War II, where Britain and USA allied with Stalin's USSR (only several years after the Great Purge in which Stalin had about 700,000 person executed and less than a decade after the Holodomor) to stop Hitler. Churchill in particular was a staunch opponent of the Bolshevik regime since its creation but he had to be practical.

[fionwe1987]

30 minutes ago, David Selig said:

An obvious historical analogy is World War II, where Britain and USA allied with Stalin's USSR (only several years after the Great Purge in which Stalin had about 700,000 person executed and less than a decade after the Holodomor) to stop Hitler. Churchill in particular was a staunch opponent of the Bolshevik regime since its creation but he had to be practical.

That's hardly a good analogy. At the same time Churchill was staunchly opposed to the Bolsheviks, he was overseeing the (lack of) response to yet another famine in India caused by colonial economic practices that killed millions. 

Neither America nor Britain had the moral high ground over the USSR they'd like to believe. 

[Gertrude]

Honestly, when facing the end of the world, I don't think moral high ground matters. I am not bothered that they allied with the Seanchan. I don't like it, but I get it - the enemy of my enemy blah blah. There is time to fight back once the Dark One and his forces are dealt with.

[fionwe1987]

Right. But that "hold your nose and do it" isn't what we get from Mat. And also, with the Aiel story Sanderson wrote, the option to fight them back after was also taken away, which is really a bizarre way to finish things. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Right. But that "hold your nose and do it" isn't what we get from Mat. And also, with the Aiel story Sanderson wrote, the option to fight them back after was also taken away, which is really a bizarre way to finish things. 

Oh - I agree about Mat. I was talking more about Rand and Egwene holding their nose. Mat has a personal relationship that he values more than his morals. Sorry, can't love a person who is gleefully a slaver if you actually believe that slavery is immoral in your core. He made his choice. I feel like perhaps we're supposed to maybe think that Mat was trapped into the marriage and now that Tuon is pregnant Mat is dispensable and has to sit straight around her to keep his head? However, that is not at all what we get from him regarding her, so no.

I assume you're talking about Aviendha's visions with the fighting back? Mainly I just mean fighting them ideologically rather than physically. A long term project to be sure, but I'm mainly thinking they can find a way to work with them while the world is at stake, and then worry about fixing the mess from where they now stand (because they are still standing). Avi's the only one who knows that vision though, right? And she thinks she may have altered that vision?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Gertrude