Born To Be Psychopaths?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Yes, they might be a threat.

They deny doing the crime, and there is plenty of evidence that that could be true (i.e. Society is rigged for the group of people that accused them of the crime. Example I think is app in the modern day : Someone who was charged for a long sentence for assaulting a police officer (which they deny), but there is ample reason to believe they might not have done it.) Or just imagine the person in question was Emmett Till (look it up if you don't know who he is. 

21 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean Darwin nearly killed Sam. He’s a hard character to feel sorry for.

Sam attacked Daeron. Some ...bouncers? (i know they weren't bouncers, but the equivalent) were the ones who threw Sam into the canals. 

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

Arya didn't kill Dareon simply because he was a Night's Watch deserter.  She killed him because of his abandonment and betrayal of Sam and the others, and by extension her brother, and because of his indifferent and hedonistic attitude towards it all.  If he'd been more helpful and sympathetic to Sam, and kept a lower profile, I doubt Arya would have cared.  I still disapprove of her actions, considering it her worst act, but I can't really feel that sorry for Dareon.

Hot take apparently : People who are indifferent and hedonistic don't deserve to be murdered. Sam punching Daeron in the face : Understandable. Reasonable reaction. Arya murdering Daeron : Not reasonable. You know the saying : Eye for an eye. Ayra killing Daeron is a life for an eye. 

On 10/17/2023 at 9:24 PM, SerDuncan said:

What is he, an embezzler or a pedophile slash murderer? Can't bunch em all together so easily

Vastly different scenarios, no refugee/immigrant is going to make me a zombie, though you could say the Walkers are aliens of a sort too

It's not your or our realm being threatened with annihilation. Dereliction of duty in such a world is unforgivable, especially when the perp is aware of the scale of the threat.

A. A person who was accused of assaulting the mayor's son, but there is ample reason to think the mayor's son made it up. 

B. Neither is Daeron. Jon Snow's action in ADwD is more likely to cause you to be murdered by a zombie. Should Arya kill him too? 

C. If a soldier ran from a battle, I would be extremely unhappy if that soldier was murdered by my government. Even if that battle was important to my protection. I don't believe in punitive justice. Killing Daeron will not make me safer. At all. In fact, since he was murdered in secret....no one even knows where he went. It does nothing. It serves absolutely no purpose to the greater cause of the Night's Watch. 

On 10/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, SeanF said:

I would report an escaped prisoner to the authorities, without question.

Would I kill a man like Daeron?  No, but then I have the option of turning him in.

If that escaped prisoner was caught selling weed and given an unfair sentence, would you still do it? 

22 hours ago, sifth said:

You’re applying real world logic, to the logic of a fantasy world. They’re like oil and water. 

No, I'm not. I'm having consistent morality not dependent on the society in which I live (or in this case fantasize about I guess...Lol that sounds weird, but I guess it is what we are doing by entering this world). I am attempting to use what I think is an apt analogy for what I think murdering Daeron would be like in our modern world. Since most people would not murder someone..I think turning them into the authorities (police or immigration) is an apt comparison. I disagree that it is like oil and water, and in fact, I find it disturbing how some fans relate to, consistently defend, or justify murder. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Y'all - Murder is bad. Murder is wrong. Even if that person is a douchebag. I swear sometimes on this forum. You know what : I've known worse people than Daeron in real life. He isn't otherwordly/fantasy land evil. He is everyday normal life evil,...a lazy/self centered dude. But I've had coworkers, ex-friends, classmates...etc, who were honestly probably worse people. I did not think they deserved to die. And I hope to god you'll aren't fantasizing about murdering your shitty selfish coworker or classmate. 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Arya seems to be having an orgasm, as she watches Walder Frey die.

Same with Dany when Khal Drogo screams about raping and pillaging Westeros, and also when she burns the Khalar Vezhven. And when she burns the former slavers in dragon jail.

D&D: and make sure you look aroused during any witness of violence or at the very mention of it.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

They deny doing the crime, and there is plenty of evidence that that could be true (i.e. Society is rigged for the group of people that accused them of the crime. Example I think is app in the modern day : Someone who was charged for a long sentence for assaulting a police officer (which they deny), but there is ample reason to believe they might not have done it.) Or just imagine the person in question was Emmett Till (look it up if you don't know who he is. 

Sam attacked Daeron. Some ...bouncers? (i know they weren't bouncers, but the equivalent) were the ones who threw Sam into the canals. 

Hot take apparently : People who are indifferent and hedonistic don't deserve to be murdered. Sam punching Daeron in the face : Understandable. Reasonable reaction. Arya murdering Daeron : Not reasonable. You know the saying : Eye for an eye. Ayra killing Daeron is a life for an eye. 

A. A person who was accused of assaulting the mayor's son, but there is ample reason to think the mayor's son made it up. 

B. Neither is Daeron. Jon Snow's action in ADwD is more likely to cause you to be murdered by a zombie. Should Arya kill him too? 

C. If a soldier ran from a battle, I would be extremely unhappy if that soldier was murdered by my government. Even if that battle was important to my protection. I don't believe in punitive justice. Killing Daeron will not make me safer. At all. In fact, since he was murdered in secret....no one even knows where he went. It does nothing. It serves absolutely no purpose to the greater cause of the Night's Watch. 

If that escaped prisoner was caught selling weed and given an unfair sentence, would you still do it? 

No, I'm not. I'm having consistent morality not dependent on the society in which I live (or in this case fantasize about I guess...Lol that sounds weird, but I guess it is what we are doing by entering this world). I am attempting to use what I think is an apt analogy for what I think murdering Daeron would be like in our modern world. Since most people would not murder someone..I think turning them into the authorities (police or immigration) is an apt comparison. I disagree that it is like oil and water, and in fact, I find it disturbing how some fans relate to, consistently defend, or justify murder. 

We have drugs laws, and most people who sell drugs are tied into organised crime, so yes.  

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We have drugs laws, and most people who sell drugs are tied into organised crime, so yes.  

As a sociology minor, most low level dealers, although are associated with organized crime....are not part of the organizing. Many get involved when they are children. Also sentence lengths are often ridiculous for minor offenses. Also, also, there are now people still in jail for things that are no longer illegal. (i.e. it is now legal to sell weed in most States, yet many are still behind bars for doing something that is now legal). 

Also, laws are not morality. There are many unjust laws. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

As a sociology minor, most low level dealers, although are associated with organized crime....are not part of the organizing. Many get involved when they are children. Also sentence lengths are often ridiculous for minor offenses. Also, also, there are now people still in jail for things that are no longer illegal. (i.e. it is now legal to sell weed in most States, yet many are still behind bars for doing something that is now legal). 

Also, laws are not morality. There are many unjust laws. 

I live in the UK.  By and large, sentence lengths are not outrageous here.  In my experience, dealers tend to be mixed up in other stuff (eg theft and handling stolen goods to fund a habit), so yes, I would not have any qualms about reporting an on-the-run dealer.

In the modern world, I'd tell the Braavosi authorities about Dareon.  They'd likely deport him as persona non grata.

[SerDuncan]

42 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

C. If a soldier ran from a battle, I would be extremely unhappy if that soldier was murdered by my government. Even if that battle was important to my protection. I don't believe in punitive justice. Killing Daeron will not make me safer. At all. In fact, since he was murdered in secret....no one even knows where he went. It does nothing. It serves absolutely no purpose to the greater cause of the Night's Watch

You don't defend the realms of men by being a liberal

43 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

B. Neither is Daeron. Jon Snow's action in ADwD is more likely to cause you to be murdered by a zombie. Should Arya kill him too? 

 

Reason left the chat

40 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Y'all - Murder is bad. Murder is wrong. Even if that person is a douchebag. I swear sometimes on this forum. You know what : I've known worse people than Daeron in real life. He isn't otherwordly/fantasy land evil. He is everyday normal life evil,...a lazy/self centered dude. But I've had coworkers, ex-friends, classmates...etc, who were honestly probably worse people. I did not think they deserved to die. And I hope to god you'll aren't fantasizing about murdering your shitty selfish coworker or classmate. 

You wouldn't be saying that plus or minus hundred years from now, let alone in a medieval setup. So let's stick to the text and not wherever your utopia is

[Lord Varys]

It is actually unintentionally funny how people pull out excuses or explanations for Arya out of their asses. 

That she remembers her home and family fondly is no proof that the way her mind processes emotions is 'normal' or not on the psychopathy spectrum. I imagine many people here would like to imagine Littlefinger, say, has no fond memories of Riverrun playing with Catelyn and Lysa and Edmure or talking to the Blackfish ... but the truth could very well that he has such images in his head. He is very much like Sandor Clegane - and one might say Arya, too - in the sense that his actions as an adult are shaped by disappointment and trauma at a young age.

George made Arya stealing Dareon's shoes a very crucial part of her murdering him. She is a filthy scavenger using murder and death as a means to acquire things she covets. Sure enough, she doesn't kill him only to get the boots, but they are very much on her mind when she does it and thinks about it and when the author reminds the reader of the murder. That is no accident.

It is quite deliberate to remind us that for Arya is as common and natural as killing an annoying mosquito is for us. We see it again with the murder of Raff - where her only thought after the deed is about getting rid of the corpse.

Arya was haunted by the memory of the stableboy in the earlier books ... but not the guardsman or any of her later killings.

If you actually compare 'murdering POVs' then Arya's is much closer to Victarion's than, say, Cersei's. Cersei killed or may have killed at a very early age, too, but she doesn't relish it like Arya does nor is she comfortable with physical violence. She may have pushed Melara into the well - we don't know so far, she could have fallen in. It is much easier to do nothing and let somebody drown than actually cutting people's throats or stabbing them to death. Cersei does a lot of ugly things in AFfC but she only authorizes them or allows them to happen ... she never does them herself. Like Arya does in the later book.

If you think about that Arya's POV gets really scary. Especially if you think that her only emotional connections are to phantoms from the past, not real people she interacted with in the Riverlands or Braavos. A big thing there is actually Jon's mental image of 'Arya in need' we get in ADwD. His memory of Arya and the real Arya have literally nothing in common.

And if we imagine Arya being reunited with the remnants of her family or reconnecting with any of her old friends it is going to be something akin to a funeral procession. They will have nothing in common anyone, only the memories of the past. Even Jon - the family member closest to Arya - would struggle with the person she became. She can fulfill plot roles as assassin, of course, but if imagine a not-so-bad ending of the story we must struggle at imagining how Arya could ever settle down or become normal again. Not just because her experiences traumatized her but also because those experiences and her training gave/are giving her power and control over herself and others she is not likely to ever want to abandon for the life of a noblewoman of House Stark. It is quite clear that Arya will never marry or play the role of a normal noblewoman - she effectively said that - and it was George's way to foreshadow her future - back in AGoT.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And if we imagine Arya being reunited with the remnants of her family or reconnecting with any of her old friends it is going to be something akin to a funeral procession. They will have nothing in common anyone, only the memories of the past. Even Jon - the family member closest to Arya - would struggle with the person she became. She can fulfill plot roles as assassin, of course, but if imagine a not-so-bad ending of the story we must struggle at imagining how Arya could ever settle down or become normal again.

I think she will struggle with that too. Which is why:

Spoiler

I think the ending she got on the show makes perfect sense. She sails off because she has too much blood on her hands to live a normal life. And she understands that as much as anyone else.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[SerDuncan]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is quite deliberate to remind us that for Arya is as common and natural as killing an annoying mosquito is for us. We see it again with the murder of Raff - where her only thought after the deed is about getting rid of the corpse.

 

How would you like it if I set that frigging mosquito on you!?

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George made Arya stealing Dareon's shoes a very crucial part of her murdering him. She is a filthy scavenger using murder and death as a means to acquire things she covets. Sure enough, she doesn't kill him only to get the boots, but they are very much on her mind when she does it and thinks about it and when the author reminds the reader of the murder. That is no accident.

She hasn't got a Jimmy Choo or Manolo Blahnik round the block unlike some of us ffs

She takes a shit, it's a grand evil transformation

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya was haunted by the memory of the stableboy in the earlier books ... but not the guardsman or any of her later killings.

Perhaps you could loan her some your ample time to ruminate, after all saving one's own ass isn't a priority

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you actually compare 'murdering POVs' then Arya's is much closer to Victarion's than, say, Cersei's. Cersei killed or may have killed at a very early age, too, but she doesn't relish it like Arya does nor is she comfortable with physical violence.

If I could bother myself with quoting CANON to the likes of you, bah

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She may have pushed Melara into the well - we don't know so far, she could have fallen in.

The pinnacle of my time here, hands down

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is much easier to do nothing and let somebody drown than actually cutting people's throats or stabbing them to death.

WOW That's something! If you're going to do it at least have the guts to do it yourself. I don't know much about the profanity code here but this is cutting it real close pal

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei does a lot of ugly things in AFfC but she only authorizes them or allows them to happen ... she never does them herself. Like Arya does in the later book.

Glad to hear the vegetable killers approve of that.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you think about that Arya's POV gets really scary. Especially if you think that her only emotional connections are to phantoms from the past, not real people she interacted with in the Riverlands or Braavos. A big thing there is actually Jon's mental image of 'Arya in need' we get in ADwD. His memory of Arya and the real Arya have literally nothing in common.

And if we imagine Arya being reunited with the remnants of her family or reconnecting with any of her old friends it is going to be something akin to a funeral procession. They will have nothing in common anyone, only the memories of the past. Even Jon - the family member closest to Arya - would struggle with the person she became. She can fulfill plot roles as assassin, of course, but if imagine a not-so-bad ending of the story we must struggle at imagining how Arya could ever settle down or become normal again. Not just because her experiences traumatized her but also because those experiences and her training gave/are giving her power and control over herself and others she is not likely to ever want to abandon for the life of a noblewoman of House Stark. It is quite clear that Arya will never marry or play the role of a normal noblewoman - she effectively said that - and it was George's way to foreshadow her future - back in AGoT.

Last I heard this wasn't a fantasy wish fulfilment forum

[SerDuncan]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is actually unintentionally funny how people pull out excuses or explanations for Arya out of their asses. 

I don't see anyone fucking laughing. And that ass is called the Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe get off your own rear and read it instead of consuming whatever is on podcasts and youtube these days and regurgitating, post abomination like the guys call it. 

PS: The Abomination, apt moniker

Edited October 18, 2023 by SerDuncan

[TheLastWolf]

My ass has pulled out a lot for her, finally some respite

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think she will struggle with that too. Which is why:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think the ending she got on the show makes perfect sense. She sails off because she has too much blood on her hands to live a normal life. And she understands that as much as anyone else.

 

I think that was a cop-out - new lands and new places give you nothing if you yourself feel (or are) rotten. Also, of course, a world-travelling 12-year-old girl is a joke.

It seems obvious that the conclusion for Arya in the book more on the not-so rather than the happy endings... Best I can imagine for her is the blood hound for some other powerful figure who has no trouble using a 12-year-old girl to do their murders and assassinations. That would suck, sure, but it is what she is becoming, so find a more or less decent way to do it might be the best the world can offer to her.

If she were to leave we could just imagine her butchering folks for bad reasons/pretext in faraway ports and places, eventually dying an early death in the gutter (because somebody would eventually get the better of her).

[SeanF]

@Lord VarysWhat I find truly odd is your belief in the essential wickedness of a traumatised child, who most readers find sympathetic.

She killed a succession of shits.

Boo and hoo.  It’s that kind of world.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

@Lord VarysWhat I find truly odd is your belief in the essential wickedness of a traumatised child, who most readers find sympathetic.

She killed a succession of shits.

Boo and hoo.  It’s that kind of world.

I'm fine with the killings - in fact, I hoped Arya would murder Harys Swyft rather than Raff when first starting to read the Mercy chapter as I want her actions to actually be relevant to the plot.

My point is strictly about how and why she kills people and what that tells us about her mental state. And, of course, also what her mental state might imply about her future life and chance for 'a normal life' or happiness.

I do like her journey very much, but I want it to be extreme, I want George to take it as far as he can possibly can. With all the consequences this might have, for better or worse. I don't want an easy way to something that would qualify as a happy end.

(That also extend to Sansa - I want Sansa to have sex with Littlefinger, want her to seduce him and to mess with his head as much as he thinks or tries to mess with hers. It will be ugly and unpleasant as hell but it would be the best story there. Just as I also want Bran to become a god treeman who feeds of human sacrifices in past and future. There is a lot of potential there, too.)

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

(That also extend to Sansa - I want Sansa to have sex with Littlefinger, want her to seduce him and to mess with his head as much as he thinks or tries to mess with hers. It will be ugly and unpleasant as hell but it would be the best story there. Just as I also want Bran to become a god treeman who feeds of human sacrifices in past and future. There is a lot of potential there, too.)

I won't lie, it really hurt to read this about my two favorite characters in the entire series.

[sifth]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Y'all - Murder is bad. Murder is wrong. Even if that person is a douchebag. I swear sometimes on this forum. You know what : I've known worse people than Daeron in real life. He isn't otherwordly/fantasy land evil. He is everyday normal life evil,...a lazy/self centered dude. But I've had coworkers, ex-friends, classmates...etc, who were honestly probably worse people. I did not think they deserved to die. And I hope to god you'll aren't fantasizing about murdering your shitty selfish coworker or classmate. 

So have I. Deron still committed a capital crime and therefore Daeron deserved to die. It's honestly that simple and it's why I say your comparing it to something like murder in the real world is oil and water. There is no due process in GRRM's world and people charged with a crime have no rights. Heck only the high born are even given a trial.

Daeron wanted to get drunk with hookers for the rest of his life and broke his vow. You break the vow you lose your head, those are the laws of GRRM's universe and a law Daeron knew full well. We're literally told by Ned Stark, one of the most morally good people in the series, that deserters are bad people in the first chapter of the first book and therefore if they commit this crime and are caught for doing it, their life is forfeit. Heck if Ned or any of his sons saw Daeron and knew what he did, they'd probably have killed him as well, because he broke the law and the Starks honor it.

Edited October 18, 2023 by sifth

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that was a cop-out - new lands and new places give you nothing if you yourself feel (or are) rotten. Also, of course, a world-travelling 12-year-old girl is a joke.

As opposed to a 9-year-old travelling to another continent on her own to become an assassin?

[SerDuncan]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm fine with the killings - in fact

So I take it wasn't you on that high horse a couple of days back?

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

in fact, I hoped Arya would murder Harys Swyft rather than Raff when first starting to read the Mercy chapter as I want her actions to actually be relevant to the plot.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I do like her journey very much, but I want it to be extreme, I want George to take it as far as he can possibly can. With all the consequences this might have, for better or worse. I don't want an easy way to something that would qualify as a happy end.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

(That also extend to Sansa - I want Sansa to have sex with Littlefinger, want her to seduce him and to mess with his head as much as he thinks or tries to mess with hers. It will be ugly and unpleasant as hell but it would be the best story there. Just as I also want Bran to become a god treeman who feeds of human sacrifices in past and future. There is a lot of potential there, too.)

Ignoring the fact that you want a 13 year old to bed a creepy old man who lusted after her mother, I'm happy that you came out with all your talk being wishes for several character arcs. Leave the forum, let's take this thread, we are trying to analyse impartially based on text from the books, and not allow our personal desires to get in the way. God, I wish that dear old man would release the next book soon!

Edited October 19, 2023 by SerDuncan

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

So have I. Deron still committed a capital crime and therefore Daeron deserved to die. It's honestly that simple and it's why I say your comparing it to something like murder in the real world is oil and water. There is no due process in GRRM's world and people charged with a crime have no rights. Heck only the high born are even given a trial.

Daeron wanted to get drunk with hookers for the rest of his life and broke his vow. You break the vow you lose your head, those are the laws of GRRM's universe and a law Daeron knew full well. We're literally told by Ned Stark, one of the most morally good people in the series, that deserters are bad people in the first chapter of the first book and therefore if they commit this crime and are caught for doing it, their life is forfeit. Heck if Ned or any of his sons saw Daeron and knew what he did, they'd probably have killed him as well, because he broke the law and the Starks honor it.

Arya is not a lord. She does not have the right to carry out what you are talking about. She is breaking the law. She committed murder, period. In GRRM's world. In any world. You can act like this isn't true, but ...then you would be wrong. 

P.s. Eddard is carrying out a law. I actually respect his concept of carrying out the execution himself (that killing someone should not be carried out by others. It should trouble you, etc.). I still do not think what Eddard does is morally right (I would call it a morally gray area). However, it does have more nuance, because it serves a purpose. What Arya did, does not. Eddard is carrying out a law, a law that other Night's Watch members heard about, and know about. He is carrying it out to prevent other Night’s Watch members from deserting. Arya secretly murdered someone illegally. No one knows it happened other than the Kindly Man. Even if Daeron is found, they won't know he was murdered for being a deserter. It served no purpose. She is doing it to “punish” him. It was BOTH an immoral act AND an illegal act, and it didn't even accomplish what you claim it did. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall