Born To Be Psychopaths?

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Point is, it was more like it is for you and me for Arya, too. Before she became what she is now.

But, of course, the shithead world makes everyone more traumatized, more familiar/okay with violence and brutality of any kind. And, yes, that also means that most characters in the books would be 'more psychopathic' simply due to their way of upbringing and the things you see and do on an average day in Westeros.

Even a character as innately noble as Dunk is very familiar with brutal violence simply because of the way he grew up.

Women are familiar with death and violence, in this world, even if less so than the men.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And not only in a more peaceful world, but one where we feel society and institutions aim at dealing with criminals relatively just. Sure we may debate about the severity of punishments, and justice is not truly blind to color, financial means, etc, and innocent people do end up in prison for years, and some criminals get away with their crimes for years too. It is far from perfect. Nevertheless we live in a society where we not just have legal broad means to seek justice but also can protest or voice our anger if we believe something was unjust. Arya's first lesson south of the Neck is how unjust the kingdom is: the heir apparent wounding an untrained boy, using real steel against a real stick, then lying about it all, and the queen demanding the death of an innocent animal for it, the king agreeing to it, and the armless innocent smallfolk boy being cut into pieces by a killer on a horse.

It's just absolutely weird imo that readers think of Arya a psychopath, when she's basically the character who feels the injustices of her society the keenest. Her emotional distress and anger over this is exactly how an empathic modern person would emotionally respond when seeing such injustice firsthand done to others.  The manner in which she tries to do something about it, as either a vigilante or assassin, is disturbing, especially for her age and though not many would admit it, her gender, but she uses the means she believes she has at her disposal. She does not have three dragons or armies to enforce her justice nor to create new laws. She only has a needle.

Again, the comparison with Dany is apt.  She feels much the same way about injustice as Arya does, and her way of dealing with injustice would be thought shockingly brutal, in a liberal democracy.

But, for her time and place, she's enlightened.  Which is true of any historical reforming leader in our world.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Well, this took a turn I didn't expect. I did not think Arya would become the focus of this. I didn't even know people in the fandom thought she was a psychopath. Anyways, ummm, I don't think Arya is a psychopath, and we actually see the experiences she has that made her more callous/numb to violence, so 100% she wasn't "born bad". Most importantly in the psychopath context, Arya clearly cares about other people. She cares about her family members, notably we see her caring for Jon and Eddard and Catelyn. As well, she cares for her friends (Gendry and Hot Pie come to mind). 

Hmm, I also want to make a comment on modern society. Honestly, it's something I feel strongly : We don't live in a just world. It is still quite unjust. It is easy to say, while living in modern first world countries (I assume most fans here do) that our society is just. Much harder to say that if you were born in say...Gaza, and just watched your family be murdered for something that essentially has nothing to do with you. I don't want to bring modern politics into this, but...let's just say, the world is often still quite unfair, and it is only the protection of living in relatively wealthy countries that allows us to forget that war and violence are still quite widespread in our modern world, with atrocities still occurring to ordinary folks who did nothing wrong (and without anyway to seek justice for the atrocities forced upon them).

I love telling personal stories, so..I distinctly remember the first time I went to the Philippines for vacation (I live in Korea, and it is extremely cheap to fly to the Philippines, so it is a common vacation spot for many Koreans, as well as myself) because of one particular event. While on the beach, I first observed begging children. They wore torn clothes, and they looked very different from my concept of Filipinos. I would go on to learn that they are known as the Ati people. They are in fact the decedents of the original inhabitants of the Philippines. The Ati people are currently, in modern day, being forced off their land. It is being taken from them (very similar to what happened to Native Americans in the US, but mostly this occurred in the past). The reason these children were begging was because they didn't have sufficient space for either hunting-gathering or farming. Today, if you went to the same island where I saw the Ati children begging, you wouldn't see them anymore. That is because the Philippines has made a concerted effort to outlaw this sort of begging to stop people from seeing that they exist, not because they stopped existing. My point is...as great as it is that we personally might not have to experience the unfairness present in Westeros..that doesn't mean modern people are not stilll experiencing. Much of the human population is still suffering in poverty. Much of the world still is not able to get justice or basic human rights. There could very well be a little girl who experienced the same kinds of things Arya did making decisions similar to Arya right now somewhere in our world. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

How and why: Survival >>> Glory or Honour or Duty

Most knights do kill in war or when they hunt down rebels or outlaws. Arya's actual murders are not done for survival, starting with the Bolton guardsman.

4 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

Feelings: You said it, not the same girl, stableboy to Raff. Perfect arc. Not overnight. So why complain not "shaken" enough. Efficient at adaptation = survivor.

Arya is transformed - or slowly transforms herself - into a professional murderess. That is not a good thing. How detached she is from normal life and how unable to reintegrate we see when she is in that village with Sandor. In Braavos she puts on masks and plays roles - but when Arya Stark of Winterfell murders she has no empathy for her victims. This is scary. And it is separate from whether any of her victims deserved punishment.

4 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

Unfair Littlefinger comparison. Operate on the opposite ends of the moral spectrum. Motivating factors enough proof.

Not sure what is unfair there. Arya is eleven, Littlefinger in his late twenties, yet she is as effective as he his as a murderer putting the victim at ease.

4 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

Coldness: Passionate murderers more likely to end up zealots, idealogues and fanatics. I recall a monologue from some film, "the very essence of justice is in the dispassionate execution, not hot blooded revenge" or something, paraphrased. Hers is the good bits of both, a perfect equilibrium so far. Survival (protecting own or loved ones' interests in the face of sheer adversity ) != Personal Gain. And yes, killing is an everyday solution in that world. Let's separate modern morality please. 

Arya is also passionate murderess going crazy in the act, e.g. the Tickler.

Psychopaths are not without feelings, they just process emotions different and feel them differently. Rage is something that is actually pretty common in psychopaths who commit violent crimes.

Killing is something you often see and witness in this world, it very common. But it is not the way people solve their problems in peace times (and not necessarily in war times, either). For Arya killing a normal way to solve problems or difficulties she faces.

4 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

Eddard Stark wasn't an insecure lord to want to appear in control. He was in control. It getting to him was his own cross to bear. We can't expect a display of emotions even in the implausible case of an empathetic audience. Hard times Hard places Hard men. Ned softer than most. 

Ned only got into control because it was normal for him, now, to execute people himself. Beheading is part of what it means to be the Lord of Winterfell. That is not a good or normal thing. It is pretty extreme even in Westeros which is repeatedly pointed out. 

I daresay many a Stark who started to enjoy beheading people because he liked watching his dad doing it would have put Roose and Ramsay to shame.

4 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

And the rest is projecting our era onto a vastly different period. Joffrey's parenting being compared to the environment of Winterfell is absurd. And Ned wasn't teaching them wanton slaughter. My grandfather taught my father how to skin hares and deer. I can attest to the fact that he's perfectly alright. And I hang out at the butchers since I was old enough to wash my own arse. I'll let you know if I go on a killing spree anytime soon.

Using your standards of normalcy doesn't help. I'd say your dad was not perfectly alright - simply because he could do what he did and thought it perfectly normal. I don't. I don't want to be able to skin hares and deer, and I don't want to numb down my natural empathy to the point that I no longer cry when I see an animal suffering. And also a person, of course.

Societal practices shape our ability to do blood work, to view it as 'normal' and ourselves as fine doing it. But it isn't.

Of course, nobody is saying that this has to turn you into a murderer - but Arya is turned into a murderess both by the society she lives in and the values she eventually espouses.

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's just absolutely weird imo that readers think of Arya a psychopath, when she's basically the character who feels the injustices of her society the keenest. Her emotional distress and anger over this is exactly how an empathic modern person would emotionally respond when seeing such injustice firsthand done to others.  The manner in which she tries to do something about it, as either a vigilante or assassin, is disturbing, especially for her age and though not many would admit it, her gender, but she uses the means she believes she has at her disposal. She does not have three dragons or armies to enforce her justice nor to create new laws. She only has a needle.

Arya in Braavos has no such empathy left. She plays roles and wears masks and the characters she plays pretends to be empathetic. She herself is not. She still can feel rage but that isn't good, either - we see that, for instance, when she cannot forgive Sandor and doesn't grant him the mercy death he wanted.

You cannot conflate the pre-war girl who wasn't properly taught the societal norms she would have to follow as a noblewoman with the girl we see in ASoS and AFfC.

Also, one should add, that Arya siding with Mycah against Joffrey and Sansa is actually both stupid and a betrayal. Mycah is a commoner nobody while Joffrey is the Heir Apparent and Arya's future brother-in-law. He isn't family yet, but destined to be ... and he outranks her and the laws in place which make him inviolable.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Well, this took a turn I didn't expect. I did not think Arya would become the focus of this. I didn't even know people in the fandom thought she was a psychopath. Anyways, ummm, I don't think Arya is a psychopath, and we actually see the experiences she has that made her more callous/numb to violence, so 100% she wasn't "born bad". Most importantly in the psychopath context, Arya clearly cares about other people. She cares about her family members, notably we see her caring for Jon and Eddard and Catelyn. As well, she cares for her friends (Gendry and Hot Pie come to mind). 

Hmm, I also want to make a comment on modern society. Honestly, it's something I feel strongly : We don't live in a just world. It is still quite unjust. It is easy to say, while living in modern first world countries (I assume most fans here do) that our society is just. Much harder to say that if you were born in say...Gaza, and just watched your family be murdered for something that essentially has nothing to do with you. I don't want to bring modern politics into this, but...let's just say, the world is often still quite unfair, and it is only the protection of living in relatively wealthy countries that allows us to forget that war and violence are still quite widespread in our modern world, with atrocities still occurring to ordinary folks who did nothing wrong (and without anyway to seek justice for the atrocities forced upon them).

I love telling personal stories, so..I distinctly remember the first time I went to the Philippines for vacation (I live in Korea, and it is extremely cheap to fly to the Philippines, so it is a common vacation spot for many Koreans, as well as myself) because of one particular event. While on the beach, I first observed begging children. They wore torn clothes, and they looked very different from my concept of Filipinos. I would go on to learn that they are known as the Ati people. They are in fact the decedents of the original inhabitants of the Philippines. The Ati people are currently, in modern day, being forced off their land. It is being taken from them (very similar to what happened to Native Americans in the US, but mostly this occurred in the past). The reason these children were begging was because they didn't have sufficient space for either hunting-gathering or farming. Today, if you went to the same island where I saw the Ati children begging, you wouldn't see them anymore. That is because the Philippines has made a concerted effort to outlaw this sort of begging to stop people from seeing that they exist, not because they stopped existing. My point is...as great as it is that we personally might not have to experience the unfairness present in Westeros..that doesn't mean modern people are not stilll experiencing. Much of the human population is still suffering in poverty. Much of the world still is not able to get justice or basic human rights. There could very well be a little girl who experienced the same kinds of things Arya did making decisions similar to Arya right now somewhere in our world. 

I agree.  You can’t apply the human rights standards standards of places where the average standard of living is fifty times subsistence, regardless of the harvest, to a society where it’s about one and a half times subsistence in a year with a good harvest.

[Darth Sidious]

23 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

What George said was, "Yes, I do inhabit my characters. Some of the time, I'm a dwarf. Some of the time I'm an incredibly hot chick riding a dragon. Some of the time I'm a psychopathic 10 year old girl, killing people and slitting their throats." Which I think was an exaggeration on his part. We get Arya's POVs and she doesn't think like a psychopath. Instead, she thinks like a traumatized and grieving little girl who is trying to survive in the middle of a war.

Just “trying to survive” is not an accurate description of what Arya has become. Arya is not just a passenger along for the ride and doing her best to endure the bumps in the road. She creates those bumps from time to time and is herself guilty of some of the evil surrounding her. She actively kills people. She wants and desires to kill people to the extent that it has become a controlling fixation. 

[Darth Sidious]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The text book case of Littlfinger acting like the highly functioning psychopath that he is is when kills Lysa. Arya killing Raff is her acting in the same manner. The crucial thing is the lack of empathy allowing both to kill their victims without any problems. A person processing emotional 'normally' wouldn't have been as much in control of the situation as both of them are.

That is the really scary part there.

Arya is young enough for her brain to become more normal again ... but it will get harder and harder with each successful murder. And I don't think hers will be a trite story of a hug from her surviving family making all bad things melting away - because that would be cheap. Hers can only be a sad story.

It’s too late for Arya to become normal. To make her normal again is at the level of unbelievable.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

Just “trying to survive” is not an accurate description of what Arya has become. Arya is not just a passenger along for the ride and doing her best to endure the bumps in the road. She creates those bumps from time to time and is herself guilty of some of the evil surrounding her. She actively kills people. She wants and desires to kill people to the extent that it has become a controlling fixation. 

Every sympathetic character kills people.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Every sympathetic character kills people.

I don't know what it would take for Tommen to kill someone, for example.

[SeanF]

And, since this argument does get raised a lot in the fandom:

”Well if you sympathise with Dany/Arya, why don’t you sympathise with the slavers, who know no better?”

The answer is that they are sadists, even compared to the average slave owner, and opposition to slavery is already widespread in this world, not just in Braavos and Westeros, but also among the mass of the Eastern populace.  It’s not a liberal anachronism.

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I agree.  You can’t apply the human rights standards standards of places where the average standard of living is fifty times subsistence, regardless of the harvest, to a society where it’s about one and a half times subsistence in a year with a good harvest.

Agreed. And I was not claiming we live in a just and fair world either. I solely referred to the society we readers live in with time to discuss fictional book characters and plots, which is not the whole world, and even our societies are not without injustices and real life harm, villains and systemic abuse. But if the means to seek justice and fairness of a society can be put on a scale, our societies (our meaning "the societies of readers") provides us with the most venues that are non-violent to seek justice and change.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know what it would take for Tommen to kill someone, for example.

Loving to put his stamp on blank paper

[TheLastWolf]

31 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said:

It’s too late for Arya to become normal. To make her normal again is at the level of unbelievable.

This is why these threads never turn out to have a productive conclusion, just derail

[SeanF]

50 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know what it would take for Tommen to kill someone, for example.

A threat to Ser Pounce?

[SerDuncan]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya's actual murders are not done for survival, starting with the Bolton guardsman.

What else for then, should she have asked him nicely? He knew what he signed up for anyway. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most knights do kill in war

So since we here in the real world have allowed and passively accepted the business of arms to dictate contemporary geopolitics, war is more nobler than merely staying alive?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

or when they hunt down rebels or outlaws

Like the evil Brotherhood without Banners? In any form of governance, feudal monarchies, fascist autocracies and alleged 'democratic republics' alike, it's merely a question of whom you share your spoils with, who dictates what's right, who's in power at the moment. History is written by the winners. Nelson Mandela was once a "terrorist" apparently. I'm not a blindly ideal pacifist but a soldier, including officers, does what he's told, a tool in the hands of the wielder who has seldom been not corrupted by his own power. A peaceful land, a quiet people indeed.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya is transformed - or slowly transforms herself - into a professional murderess

Name one innocent victim. Post or prior to her Faceless men stint.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How detached she is from normal life and how unable to reintegrate we see when she is in that village with Sandor

A wanted girl on the run has no such luxuries.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In Braavos she puts on masks and plays roles - but when Arya Stark of Winterfell murders she has no empathy for her victims. This is scary.

'No one' not Arya of House Stark. And you wouldn't be killing people if you were sensitive to their feelings in the first place. Somehow pop culture has us all believing that the ones who tortures themselves with guilt are somehow redeemable. I say again, none of the victims were innocent. And the author doesn't put it that way unless he intends something for her arc, which is not an ending as a psychopath.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is separate from whether any of her victims deserved punishment.

How so? The very intent of her killing them is born there. It's like hating the rebels for killing stormtroopers in their way. Oh they had families?! Surprise, everyone does. Choices were made. Consequences were faced. I can think of no one who lost sleep over that, characters and audiences alike. So how can you equate her with the multitudes of scum motivated by greed, lust and sadism?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure what is unfair there. Arya is eleven, Littlefinger in his late twenties, yet she is as effective as he his as a murderer putting the victim at ease.

The distinction of intent surely isn't lost on you, I hope?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya is also passionate murderess going crazy in the act, e.g. the Tickler.

So she's both cold and unhinged at the same time? Pick a stance. I stand by my statement when I said she has a balance of both revenge and justice that has worked efficiently so far.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Psychopaths are not without feelings, they just process emotions different and feel them differently. Rage is something that is actually pretty common in psychopaths who commit violent crimes

Anger is a normal human emotion that doesn't instantly make one Ted Bundy. And the Tickler incident isn't a stranger being killed by a serial killer for no reason. It's a psychopath being killed by a vigilante with good reason. It would be unrealistic if Arya never had one outburst during all her adversities.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Killing is something you often see and witness in this world, it very common. But it is not the way people solve their problems in peace times (and not necessarily in war times, either). For Arya killing a normal way to solve problems or difficulties she faces.

I daresay our relatively privileged and sheltered existence has made us intolerant in our outlook towards any period's differences in way of life.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned only got into control because it was normal for him, now, to execute people himself. Beheading is part of what it means to be the Lord of Winterfell. That is not a good or normal thing. It is pretty extreme even in Westeros which is repeatedly pointed out. 

The man who passes the sentence should swing the blade. Owes that much at least to the condemned man. 

I don't believe we are right in allowing a system to dictate who must and must not live. But being a part of that society which would collapse if it weren't for such laws, we lose the right to criticize them. Against capital punishment or incarceration? Time travel to utopia, or go back to the jungle where every man for himself is perfectly valid.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I daresay many a Stark who started to enjoy beheading people because he liked watching his dad doing it would have put Roose and Ramsay to shame.

Name a few. Curious that Starks have mostly been known for honour and the Boltons for treachery and torture? The author isn't stupid. That's how the law has been passed down in two different ways.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Using your standards of normalcy doesn't help. I'd say your dad was not perfectly alright - simply because he could do what he did and thought it perfectly normal. I don't. I don't want to be able to skin hares and deer, and I don't want to numb down my natural empathy to the point that I no longer cry when I see an animal suffering. And also a person, of course

Very easy for people from privilege to take the high horse moral approach when all their needs are taken care of. How can a white vegan from, say, New York condemn an African tribal eating meat in the desert. Not to say I'm one. Those are survival skills from hard times, not hunting for pleasure. And you'd have the entirety of life be herbivores I bet.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Societal practices shape our ability to do blood work, to view it as 'normal' and ourselves as fine doing it. But it isn't.

Who let you define normalcy?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, nobody is saying that this has to turn you into a murderer - but Arya is turned into a murderess both by the society she lives in and the values she eventually espouses.

SMH

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya in Braavos has no such empathy left. She plays roles and wears masks and the characters she plays pretends to be empathetic. She herself is not. She still can feel rage but that isn't good, either - we see that, for instance, when she cannot forgive Sandor and doesn't grant him the mercy death he wanted

She removed his name from her list unconsciously. And if she'd killed him, you'd be arguing that she's evil for that too. The author has plans for Sandor, simple.

And absolute stating something repetitively simply doesn't make them true. This fallacy probably has some fancy name.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You cannot conflate the pre-war girl who wasn't properly taught the societal norms she would have to follow as a noblewoman with the girl we see in ASoS and AFfC.

Also, one should add, that Arya siding with Mycah against Joffrey and Sansa is actually both stupid and a betrayal. Mycah is a commoner nobody while Joffrey is the Heir Apparent and Arya's future brother-in-law. He isn't family yet, but destined to be ... and he outranks her and the laws in place which make him inviolable.

So how exactly does that make her a psycho lacking empathy? You'd love for people to be put in their places wouldn't you?

Edited October 14, 2023 by SerDuncan

[Craving Peaches]

Arya cannot be a 'professional murderess' since:

• She hasn't finished her Faceless Men training
• She isn't being paid to kill people, or getting a cut of what the organisation is being paid

[Nevets]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:40 AM, Lord Varys said:

Most knights do kill in war or when they hunt down rebels or outlaws. Arya's actual murders are not done for survival, starting with the Bolton guardsman.

Arya is transformed - or slowly transforms herself - into a professional murderess. That is not a good thing. How detached she is from normal life and how unable to reintegrate we see when she is in that village with Sandor. In Braavos she puts on masks and plays roles - but when Arya Stark of Winterfell murders she has no empathy for her victims. This is scary. And it is separate from whether any of her victims deserved punishment.

Not sure what is unfair there. Arya is eleven, Littlefinger in his late twenties, yet she is as effective as he his as a murderer putting the victim at ease.

Arya is also passionate murderess going crazy in the act, e.g. the Tickler.

Psychopaths are not without feelings, they just process emotions different and feel them differently. Rage is something that is actually pretty common in psychopaths who commit violent crimes.

Killing is something you often see and witness in this world, it very common. But it is not the way people solve their problems in peace times (and not necessarily in war times, either). For Arya killing a normal way to solve problems or difficulties she faces.

Ned only got into control because it was normal for him, now, to execute people himself. Beheading is part of what it means to be the Lord of Winterfell. That is not a good or normal thing. It is pretty extreme even in Westeros which is repeatedly pointed out. 

I daresay many a Stark who started to enjoy beheading people because he liked watching his dad doing it would have put Roose and Ramsay to shame.

Using your standards of normalcy doesn't help. I'd say your dad was not perfectly alright - simply because he could do what he did and thought it perfectly normal. I don't. I don't want to be able to skin hares and deer, and I don't want to numb down my natural empathy to the point that I no longer cry when I see an animal suffering. And also a person, of course.

Societal practices shape our ability to do blood work, to view it as 'normal' and ourselves as fine doing it. But it isn't.

Of course, nobody is saying that this has to turn you into a murderer - but Arya is turned into a murderess both by the society she lives in and the values she eventually espouses.

Arya in Braavos has no such empathy left. She plays roles and wears masks and the characters she plays pretends to be empathetic. She herself is not. She still can feel rage but that isn't good, either - we see that, for instance, when she cannot forgive Sandor and doesn't grant him the mercy death he wanted.

You cannot conflate the pre-war girl who wasn't properly taught the societal norms she would have to follow as a noblewoman with the girl we see in ASoS and AFfC.

Also, one should add, that Arya siding with Mycah against Joffrey and Sansa is actually both stupid and a betrayal. Mycah is a commoner nobody while Joffrey is the Heir Apparent and Arya's future brother-in-law. He isn't family yet, but destined to be ... and he outranks her and the laws in place which make him inviolable.

This is getting ridiculous.  Arya's upbringing gave her a strong moral code and sense of right and wrong, combined with a hatred for injustice.  Combine that with a hot temper, impulsiveness, and strong empathy for others and you have a vengeful vigilante.  I am bothered by some of her more recent acts, but I in no way think she is, or is becoming psychopathic.  Anti-social (i.e., criminal), maybe.  But not psychopathic.

The Bolton guard was killed out of necessity.  She had already stolen the horses, as well as the dagger and the map.  There was no hiding it; she had crossed the Rubicon.  She had initially planned to bluff her way out.  When she realized that wouldn't work, she killed him.  He is a victim of poor planning as much as anything else.  

While she didn't do well in the village with Sandor, she felt no sense of belonging there either.  In Braavos, she lives with Brusco and his family, selling shellfish, for months, and does just fine.  However, she lets her anger at unjust behavior and betrayal get the best of her with Dareon.  He did betray Sam, and by extension her brother, and was an arrogant and hedonistic prick about it.  I consider it her worst act, but can't get too exercised over it.  Later, in the preview chapter, she is working in a theater, again functioning quite nicely.  Until someone from her past comes along.  

Witnessing the slaughter of animals for food and clothing hardly is going to make someone psychopathic or even callous toward life, especially if done humanely.  Knowing Ned, that was likely the case.  As for watching an execution, I too question the wisdom of bringing a 7-year-old along.  However, it is worth noting that England and parts of America held public hangings until well into the 1800s.  I have read that entire families would be in the crowds, including young children.  May not be a good idea, but as long as it made clear that justice is being done (or is supposed to be), I'm unconvinced it is going to create psychopaths or the like.

Essentially, Arya is more like a refugee from war or a child soldier than anything else we have to compare her to.  In any event, I would expect a safe, caring environment would help a lot, as well as good mentors.  Unfortunately, with the Faceless Men, she is getting neither.  The don't care about her per se; they are interested in using her for their own ends, and manipulating her in that direction.  What that is, I don't necessarily know, but I doubt it is becoming an assassin.  She's not really cut out for it; she cares too much about other people, and I don't think her training is aimed in that direction either.  If they are training her to be an assassin, they are doing so in a very roundabout and dilatory way.  Her training is more the thing you would give a spy or other undercover agent. 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Nevets
Typos

[Craving Peaches]

Funny how all the people ignoring/twisting the text to try and claim Arya is a psycho murderer are the ones who come up with the most ridiculous excuses ever to try and handwave away the behaviour of... King Aerys II. It's almost like Arya is only bad because she's a Stark...

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I just read the chapter where Arya murders Daeron…and first off, Arya is not a pychopath. However,….it is fucked. She very casually murders someone, essentially making herself the arbitrator of what is right and wrong (since I think she thinks she is justified to murder him). I guess maybe I can see where some people come from here. Arya is troubled and is increasingly callous to others right to make their own choices/live their lives as they choose, and she is taking a dark road. 10-11 year olds (how old is Arya?) murdering people that casually…is messed up. Now, I would go ahead and put Arya down as a “broken man” (broken girl?) like Septon Meribald talked about. She experienced essentially unending horror from the time her father was taken captive. Although she was not a soldier, the helplessness, and lack of agency is not too dissimilar to what Meribald talks about. 

I think the problem is a lot of folks are lacking nuance when it comes to Arya. She is not Petyr Baelish, not even many of the other evil characters. However, for the Arya supporters…she is making some pretty dark decisions, and I think a road back to normality would be very difficult. 

[SeanF]

54 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I just read the chapter where Arya murders Daeron…and first off, Arya is not a pychopath. However,….it is fucked. She very casually murders someone, essentially making herself the arbitrator of what is right and wrong (since I think she thinks she is justified to murder him). I guess maybe I can see where some people come from here. Arya is troubled and is increasingly callous to others right to make their own choices/live their lives as they choose, and she is taking a dark road. 10-11 year olds (how old is Arya?) murdering people that casually…is messed up. Now, I would go ahead and put Arya down as a “broken man” (broken girl?) like Septon Meribald talked about. She experienced essentially unending horror from the time her father was taken captive. Although she was not a soldier, the helplessness, and lack of agency is not too dissimilar to what Meribald talks about. 

I think the problem is a lot of folks are lacking nuance when it comes to Arya. She is not Petyr Baelish, not even many of the other evil characters. However, for the Arya supporters…she is making some pretty dark decisions, and I think a road back to normality would be very difficult. 

Law and justice simply don't exist in the world that Martin has created.

What Arya has internalised is that the only justice is that which you create for yourself.