Born To Be Psychopaths?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don’t find it useful to try and determine if a character suffers Anti-social Personality Disorder, because I have no training in that field.

This is a 17th century world (in terms of army sizes and cruelty in war) inserted into a pseudo-medieval society.  Leaders are mostly selfish and cruel, because that is what their world requires of them.  One does not need to speculate about psychiatric disorders.

I mean, .....you came to the conclusion I did. Actually the reason I made this thread...is because people kept saying that individuals were "born evil", "born crazy", or "born bad". That is what I disagreed with. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

What George said was, "Yes, I do inhabit my characters. Some of the time, I'm a dwarf. Some of the time I'm an incredibly hot chick riding a dragon. Some of the time I'm a psychopathic 10 year old girl, killing people and slitting their throats." Which I think was an exaggeration on his part. We get Arya's POVs and she doesn't think like a psychopath. Instead, she thinks like a traumatized and grieving little girl who is trying to survive in the middle of a war.

The text book case of Littlfinger acting like the highly functioning psychopath that he is is when kills Lysa. Arya killing Raff is her acting in the same manner. The crucial thing is the lack of empathy allowing both to kill their victims without any problems. A person processing emotional 'normally' wouldn't have been as much in control of the situation as both of them are.

That is the really scary part there.

Arya is young enough for her brain to become more normal again ... but it will get harder and harder with each successful murder. And I don't think hers will be a trite story of a hug from her surviving family making all bad things melting away - because that would be cheap. Hers can only be a sad story.

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean, .....you came to the conclusion I did. Actually the reason I made this thread...is because people kept saying that individuals were "born evil", "born crazy", or "born bad". That is what I disagreed with. 

That is mostly coming from folks you don't have to take seriously. Both hating imaginary people and diagnosing them is silly - but it can't be helped that some people want to do that.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The text book case of Littlfinger acting like the highly functioning psychopath that he is is when kills Lysa. Arya killing Raff is her acting in the same manner. The crucial thing is the lack of empathy allowing both to kill their victims without any problems. A person processing emotional 'normally' wouldn't have been as much in control of the situation as both of them are.

That is the really scary part there.

Arya is young enough for her brain to become more normal again ... but it will get harder and harder with each successful murder. And I don't think hers will be a trite story of a hug from her surviving family making all bad things melting away - because that would be cheap. Hers can only be a sad story.

Oh, I think that most of us would kill Raff, if we were in Arya's shoes.

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Oh, I think that most of us would kill Raff, if we were in Arya's shoes.

I'd not as a 11-year-old. And even those days I'd not do it in this callous and detached and professional way. I'd sweat like a pig and be afraid as hell that I'd botch it and/or being caught.

In fact, I'd try to forget the guy and avoid him because he actually never tortured me to death.

Arya developed the weird notion that she is this angel of death since Jaqen killed people for her at Harrenhal. It gave her power. She liked it. And it is why she is learning to be a killer now. Nobody forced her to adopt her mantra nor to sticking to it and actually killing the people on her list if she can.

[SerDuncan]

As long as Arya keeps her moral compass intact, I think these claims are unjustified being directed at her regardless of the number of people she kills. I can think of several "honourable" knights and warriors with body counts way past hers, and very few as justifiable as hers was. No sleep to be lost on eliminating such degenerates especially in the face of threats to survival.

But I daresay we can't rule out being "born evil" in this universe. After all there is the fantasy element. Furthermore they all have innate proclivities, why can't some of them be what is conventionally considered "evil" in any civilization slash society.

Back to her, 11 year olds with trauma like hers and a strong sense of justice inculcated when faced with killing, cope with the act of killing itself, not worry about the consequences when there's nothing left to lose, maybe just the capacity to continue coping so. And I wager any man who has killed can attest to that feeling of power. Why do we expect all those on the right side to have guilt and troubled consciences in order to sympathise.

Edited October 13, 2023 by SerDuncan

[Loose Bolt]

What effects the fact that members of great families has tendency to marry their relatives has to their mental health? 

[Daendrew]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:28 AM, sweetsunray said:

Sociapthy is an outdated term.

Psychopathy has a genetic factor. There is no doubt about that. But there are hypothesis and efforts and raising methods advized the past few decades to raise a child which might have been burdened with such genetical factors in a manner to increase its empathic abilities. Per definition no child can be diagnozed as a psychopath. Only adults can be.

I missed you Sweetsunray!

[sweetsunray]

55 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

I missed you Sweetsunray!

Likewise

[TheLastWolf]

It boils down to Arya every single time heh

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

violent

yes

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

dangerous

oh yes

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

criminal

Slavery was legal. Laws change. Morals too, albeit a lot slower. Negligible enough to be absolutely objective outside the jungle.

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

who kills people for no legitimate reason

...

 

And a yeah to the genetic theory too. Inbreeding specific traits with an environment that serves to reinforce the same...duh

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

As long as Arya keeps her moral compass intact, I think these claims are unjustified being directed at her regardless of the number of people she kills. I can think of several "honourable" knights and warriors with body counts way past hers, and very few as justifiable as hers was. No sleep to be lost on eliminating such degenerates especially in the face of threats to survival.

That is a completely different thing. We are not talking kill counts, but how and why you are killing - and what you feel when doing it. Tyrion first kills folks on the Green Fork ... that doesn't change or effect his attitude much. Strangling a helpless Shae and gutting his shithead dad does.

Every single kill of Arya's affects her. She loses a piece of her humanity with every corpse she produces. The girl who accidentally kills the stableboy isn't the same as the girl who murders Raff.

She is as good at her job by then as Littlefinger was with Lysa.

3 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

But I daresay we can't rule out being "born evil" in this universe. After all there is the fantasy element. Furthermore they all have innate proclivities, why can't some of them be what is conventionally considered "evil" in any civilization slash society.

We can rule that out because George doesn't write stuff like that. He wants to know why people do certain things, and that includes monsters. They are always only monsters on the outside. Inside they are human beings. Sure enough, some would be more psychopathic than others. But for that there would be explanations for their behavior, actions, and (sexual) preferences.

3 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

Back to her, 11 year olds with trauma like hers and a strong sense of justice inculcated when faced with killing, cope with the act of killing itself, not worry about the consequences when there's nothing left to lose, maybe just the capacity to continue coping so. And I wager any man who has killed can attest to that feeling of power. Why do we expect all those on the right side to have guilt and troubled consciences in order to sympathise.

Trauma like Arya's can cause your brain to process emotions in a way that we would call 'psychopathic'. And we see it both with Raff and to a lesser degree with Dareon. She has no empathy for them, and murders them the same way you or I might put on our shoes. Regardless what they did - this kind of coldness is scary. Psychopathy is a spectrum. Arya is definitely on there, but she clearly isn't a sadist nor somebody who would murder anyone for personal gain (yet). But she is capable and willing to murder to get what she wants, to protect her interests. She is well beyond killing somebody to save her own life or that of a loved one. Killing is an acceptable way to solve a number of problems she might face in everyday life at this point.

But not surprising in this world at all where Arya's father teaches his sons to become executioners. You can only be the Stark of Winterfell if you are cold and detached enough to execute people publicly. You just don't have to kill, you have to kill and look in control, look as if it doesn't get to you. We see how hard that is when Robb botches the execution of Rickard Karstark.

Thinking about things it is actually very unrealistic that the Starks are nice and normal children and Joffrey - who never saw his father hacking off heads telling that he would have to do that one day, too - is the piece of work that he is.

That shows thee author didn't really think through how raising children in this crazy way would affect them. Arya sees much trauma ... but what image of Ned would his sons have of him if they saw him chopping off heads at the age of seven (and perhaps earlier). I remember how it affected me watching my grandfather catch and gut fishes and hanging out living eels when I was as young as Bran is in AGoT. I cannot imagine how it would affect me watching my father chop some heads off at that age.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not as a 11-year-old. And even those days I'd not do it in this callous and detached and professional way. I'd sweat like a pig and be afraid as hell that I'd botch it and/or being caught.

In fact, I'd try to forget the guy and avoid him because he actually never tortured me to death.

Arya developed the weird notion that she is this angel of death since Jaqen killed people for her at Harrenhal. It gave her power. She liked it. And it is why she is learning to be a killer now. Nobody forced her to adopt her mantra nor to sticking to it and actually killing the people on her list if she can.

You would not, and I would not, because we live comfortable lives in liberal democracies, where violent death is unusual.  I've never killed anyone, and I'm sure I'd find it very hard.  We take for granted, a state of peace  that most people, in most time periods, would never have experienced.

But, if I lived in Arya's world, I'm sure it would be a very different thing.  Human life is cheap, and nobody questions capital punishment, or the use of torture.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, if I lived in Arya's world, I'm sure it would be a very different thing.  Human life is cheap, and nobody questions capital punishment, or the use of torture.

Point is, it was more like it is for you and me for Arya, too. Before she became what she is now.

But, of course, the shithead world makes everyone more traumatized, more familiar/okay with violence and brutality of any kind. And, yes, that also means that most characters in the books would be 'more psychopathic' simply due to their way of upbringing and the things you see and do on an average day in Westeros.

Even a character as innately noble as Dunk is very familiar with brutal violence simply because of the way he grew up.

[Shierak Qiya]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:27 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

(Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Viserys)

There is not much to separate Cersei from Arya.  Both psycho girls got a very early start to their murderous ways.  Joffrey is an extreme version of spoiled, temperamental, and cruel.  I don't know if he fits the mold of a psychopath.  Likewise with Viserys.  Viserys gets knocked but let's just appreciate what he was able to accomplish.  He was penniless and had to take care of little Dany.  He was smart enough and tough enough to survive and still take care of a child. He raised a fine young woman.  For all of his faults, he was a very educated young man who passed it on to his sister.  What he learned from the Maesters included a lot of rubbish but the important part is his accomplishments in teaching his sister how to read/speak in  the Common Tongue and High Valyrian.

Tywin, yes.  Cersei, yes.  Joffrey, I don't think so.  Viserys, no. 

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, Shierak Qiya said:

There is not much to separate Cersei from Arya.  Both psycho girls got a very early start to their murderous ways.  Joffrey is an extreme version of spoiled, temperamental, and cruel.  I don't know if he fits the mold of a psychopath.  Likewise with Viserys.  Viserys gets knocked but let's just appreciate what he was able to accomplish.  He was penniless and had to take care of little Dany.  He was smart enough and tough enough to survive and still take care of a child. He raised a fine young woman.  For all of his faults, he was a very educated young man who passed it on to his sister.  What he learned from the Maesters included a lot of rubbish but the important part is his accomplishments in teaching his sister how to read/speak in  the Common Tongue and High Valyrian.

Tywin, yes.  Cersei, yes.  Joffrey, I don't think so.  Viserys, no. 

Dany does things that would be appalling in a prosperous liberal democracy.  So does Robb Stark."

They do not stand out as awful in a violent, depraved world, such as the one that is portrayed

.

[kissdbyfire]

54 minutes ago, Shierak Qiya said:

He was smart enough and tough enough to survive and still take care of a child.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Shierak Qiya said:

He was penniless and had to take care of little Dany.  He was smart enough and tough enough to survive and still take care of a child. He raised a fine young woman.  For all of his faults, he was a very educated young man who passed it on to his sister. 

Come on, this is just b*llocks. You are aware that Viserys abused Daenerys physically, psychologically and sexually?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

You would not, and I would not, because we live comfortable lives in liberal democracies, where violent death is unusual.  I've never killed anyone, and I'm sure I'd find it very hard.  We take for granted, a state of peace  that most people, in most time periods, would never have experienced.

But, if I lived in Arya's world, I'm sure it would be a very different thing.  Human life is cheap, and nobody questions capital punishment, or the use of torture.

And not only in a more peaceful world, but one where we feel society and institutions aim at dealing with criminals relatively just. Sure we may debate about the severity of punishments, and justice is not truly blind to color, financial means, etc, and innocent people do end up in prison for years, and some criminals get away with their crimes for years too. It is far from perfect. Nevertheless we live in a society where we not just have legal broad means to seek justice but also can protest or voice our anger if we believe something was unjust. Arya's first lesson south of the Neck is how unjust the kingdom is: the heir apparent wounding an untrained boy, using real steel against a real stick, then lying about it all, and the queen demanding the death of an innocent animal for it, the king agreeing to it, and the armless innocent smallfolk boy being cut into pieces by a killer on a horse.

It's just absolutely weird imo that readers think of Arya a psychopath, when she's basically the character who feels the injustices of her society the keenest. Her emotional distress and anger over this is exactly how an empathic modern person would emotionally respond when seeing such injustice firsthand done to others.  The manner in which she tries to do something about it, as either a vigilante or assassin, is disturbing, especially for her age and though not many would admit it, her gender, but she uses the means she believes she has at her disposal. She does not have three dragons or armies to enforce her justice nor to create new laws. She only has a needle.

[SerDuncan]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a completely different thing. We are not talking kill counts, but how and why you are killing - and what you feel when doing it. Tyrion first kills folks on the Green Fork ... that doesn't change or effect his attitude much. Strangling a helpless Shae and gutting his shithead dad does.

Every single kill of Arya's affects her. She loses a piece of her humanity with every corpse she produces. The girl who accidentally kills the stableboy isn't the same as the girl who murders Raff.

She is as good at her job by then as Littlefinger was with Lysa.

We can rule that out because George doesn't write stuff like that. He wants to know why people do certain things, and that includes monsters. They are always only monsters on the outside. Inside they are human beings. Sure enough, some would be more psychopathic than others. But for that there would be explanations for their behavior, actions, and (sexual) preferences.

Trauma like Arya's can cause your brain to process emotions in a way that we would call 'psychopathic'. And we see it both with Raff and to a lesser degree with Dareon. She has no empathy for them, and murders them the same way you or I might put on our shoes. Regardless what they did - this kind of coldness is scary. Psychopathy is a spectrum. Arya is definitely on there, but she clearly isn't a sadist nor somebody who would murder anyone for personal gain (yet). But she is capable and willing to murder to get what she wants, to protect her interests. She is well beyond killing somebody to save her own life or that of a loved one. Killing is an acceptable way to solve a number of problems she might face in everyday life at this point.

But not surprising in this world at all where Arya's father teaches his sons to become executioners. You can only be the Stark of Winterfell if you are cold and detached enough to execute people publicly. You just don't have to kill, you have to kill and look in control, look as if it doesn't get to you. We see how hard that is when Robb botches the execution of Rickard Karstark.

Thinking about things it is actually very unrealistic that the Starks are nice and normal children and Joffrey - who never saw his father hacking off heads telling that he would have to do that one day, too - is the piece of work that he is.

That shows thee author didn't really think through how raising children in this crazy way would affect them. Arya sees much trauma ... but what image of Ned would his sons have of him if they saw him chopping off heads at the age of seven (and perhaps earlier). I remember how it affected me watching my grandfather catch and gut fishes and hanging out living eels when I was as young as Bran is in AGoT. I cannot imagine how it would affect me watching my father chop some heads off at that age.

How and why: Survival >>> Glory or Honour or Duty

Feelings: You said it, not the same girl, stableboy to Raff. Perfect arc. Not overnight. So why complain not "shaken" enough. Efficient at adaptation = survivor.

Unfair Littlefinger comparison. Operate on the opposite ends of the moral spectrum. Motivating factors enough proof.

Evil: For Instance. the Dothraki exist just to rape and pillage. Doesn't seem very three dimensional to me. The humanity inside? Genghis Khan wasn't really sensitive was he? The factors that shaped them maybe social, but over time when only the traits that ensure their murderous identity are passed down...

Coldness: Passionate murderers more likely to end up zealots, idealogues and fanatics. I recall a monologue from some film, "the very essence of justice is in the dispassionate execution, not hot blooded revenge" or something, paraphrased. Hers is the good bits of both, a perfect equilibrium so far. Survival (protecting own or loved ones' interests in the face of sheer adversity ) != Personal Gain. And yes, killing is an everyday solution in that world. Let's separate modern morality please. 

Eddard Stark wasn't an insecure lord to want to appear in control. He was in control. It getting to him was his own cross to bear. We can't expect a display of emotions even in the implausible case of an empathetic audience. Hard times Hard places Hard men. Ned softer than most. 

And the rest is projecting our era onto a vastly different period. Joffrey's parenting being compared to the environment of Winterfell is absurd. And Ned wasn't teaching them wanton slaughter. My grandfather taught my father how to skin hares and deer. I can attest to the fact that he's perfectly alright. And I hang out at the butchers since I was old enough to wash my own arse. I'll let you know if I go on a killing spree anytime soon.

[SerDuncan]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Point is, it was more like it is for you and me for Arya, too. Before she became what she is now.

A2D

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But, of course, the shithead world makes everyone more traumatized, more familiar/okay with violence and brutality of any kind. And, yes, that also means that most characters in the books would be 'more psychopathic' simply due to their way of upbringing and the things you see and do on an average day in Westeros.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even a character as innately noble as Dunk is very familiar with brutal violence simply because of the way he grew up.

If we can agree that the alarming violence line starts way higher, then there is no conflict of ideas