Born To Be Psychopaths?

[SeanF]

Nah.

Ygritte is Jon’s manic pixie dream girl.  Martin shows us what happens when the film ends, and she ends up with an arrow between her tits.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

We've moved onto Jon and Ygritte, eh? Well, honestly, I agree with the crowd here. Ygritte didn't violate Jon. I've had much more forceful women in my life than Ygritte, and it was certainly not rape. Being convincing and raping are not the same thing. The first woman I dated was constantly convincing, and she convinced me, but I still made the choice, and so did Jon. Jon is conflicted internally, but he is also very willing. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:01 AM, SeanF said:

The Abomination did a lot to cement the image of psychopathic Arya.

There, she really enjoys tormenting her victims (obnoxious though they are) and Sansa enjoys tormenting Ramsay (obnoxious though he is).  That was meant to show them both as being badass.

Arya seems to be having an orgasm, as she watches Walder Frey die.

Holy smokes, so true. Remember Trant? Who went from being a generic arsehole in the books to a nasty paedo in the abomination, just to justify Arya's "badassness"?

[sifth]

20 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

We've moved onto Jon and Ygritte, eh? Well, honestly, I agree with the crowd here. Ygritte didn't violate Jon. I've had much more forceful women in my life than Ygritte, and it was certainly not rape. Being convincing and raping are not the same thing. The first woman I dated was constantly convincing, and she convinced me, but I still made the choice, and so did Jon. Jon is conflicted internally, but he is also very willing. 

 

Plus he probably would have gotten killed if he didn't do it. Pretty easy choice, lol

[sweetsunray]

On 10/20/2023 at 9:50 PM, Craving Peaches said:

It depends. My issue with it is that Jon was really pressured into doing it since he was ordered to do everything he could to integrate himself with the wildlings and he ran a high risk of dying if he didn't. Without these 'pressure factors', I don't see Jon sleeping with Ygritte...

Same issue.

Btw checked Jon's age at the time he met Ygritte: he was 16 then already. He turns 15 in aGoT: Benjen promised to be back before Jon's 15th name day, but never did, and Tyrion left the Wall after Jon's 15th name day

(curious timeline effect: Jon's name day would then be early june or late May, if you follow the consistency that by the end of 298 they claim Benjen is nearly half a year gone, and Cressen's claim that Stannis prevented ships to leave Dragonstone for half a year, just as the comet had appeared. It's weird, but once you try to move timeline events around, you get major inconsistencies with those and other name days of other characters, as well as moon phase descriptions or references)

Anyhow, regardless on how you fiddle with the aGoT timeline, Jon was 14 at the start, but turned 15 in 298. Sam's already 16 at the start of the Great Ranging. The comet's in the sky. Jon knows Robb is KitN and the white raven arrived. So the great ranging commences in 299, when he's 15, and he doesn't meet Ygritte until the end of aCoK, which is the Battle of the Blackwater. By then Jon is 16 and so is Robb.

But yeah, Ygritte's use of coercion is problematic. A yes must be enthusiastic to be consensual. If this is true between partners from a man towards a woman, it also works the other way around. Their sexual relation does not start with full consent, even if his body wants to. A man having an erection is not good enough an argument to claim he wasn't coerced into it. Nor is him developing feelings for her. Her threatening to kill him herself if he ever left her...  But I do respect that he does remember her with a fondness.

[Springwatch]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course Ygritte forced him. She lied about them fucking already and then she insisted on him making it true. She could have just pretended that they fuck without insisting that Jon actually break his vows.

No privacy, remember? That won't work.

Besides, Jon isn't a celibate by conviction. That was forced on him by circumstances too.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No privacy, remember? That won't work.

Besides, Jon isn't a celibate by conviction. That was forced on him by circumstances too.

He does have a conviction - he does not want to father bastards. He deliberately avoids brothels, even those in Mole town. He uses his vows of the NW as a cloak to explain why he chooses not to bed a woman and give in to lust. It doesn't mean he cannot have lustful reactions or physical needs. But he does want to be above those.

If Ygritte had not insisted he had to make her lie to Mance true, he would not have slept with her, out of conviction.

The circumstance of the NW and celibacy was very much of his own choosing.

Edited October 22, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No privacy, remember? That won't work.

It would if they were lying under one fur as they are only making intercourse sounds.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Besides, Jon isn't a celibate by conviction. That was forced on him by circumstances too.

Nope, Jon and Sam both do swear their vows of their own free will. Both could have gone away to try to find another place in life (especially craven Sam could have taken a ship to Oldtown to become a maester without his father's knowledge or approval) and they decided to stay at the Watch and swear the vows of their own free will.

And if you reread the Jon chapters where 'the romance' starts he points out that he has sworn a vow. He is pushed into sex because he earlier claimed he had broken the other parts of his NW vows, too. But he doesn't want to break the chastity vows just has he doesn't want to - and effectively never breaks - the other NW vows. Which is why he returns and eventually becomes Lord Commander. He is ordered to break his vows to enter into an undercover mission by his superior officer. And the reason why he is accepted back by the order is because Maester Aemon and other crucial figures actually believe his story.

Jon Snow actually does believe in the Night's Watch and its vows.

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He does have a conviction - he does not want to father bastards. He deliberately avoids brothels, even those in Mole town. He uses his vows of the NW as a cloak to explain why he chooses not to bed a woman and give in to lust. It doesn't mean he cannot have lustful reactions or physical needs. But he does want to be above those.

Jon doesn't seem to have a strong sex drive. There are no masturbation scenes so far, no secret lusting after any of the women he has to interact with as Lord Commander (neither Val nor Melisandre). He notices their beauty when they try to seduce or entice them but their images don't stick in his mind they would in a, well, a healthy 16-year-old with a strong(er) sex drive.

Granted, George is very closeted about male masturbation so far, giving us one brief scene in Tyrion's chapters, but Jon Snow still isn't written as a (future) womanizer ... he doesn't want a mistress and he certainly doesn't want (or thinks he can have) a wife. There is also nothing akin to, say, Barristan Selmy's feelings for Ashara Dayne. Both before and after Ygritte.

Regarding freedom or anything - Jon has exactly the same kind of 'choice' as Sansa has in marrying Tyrion. He can refuse Ygritte and risk punishment, possibly involving torture and death at the hands of Mance's thugs, or he can give her her way. That he ends up enjoying what he is forced to do to a point has no bearing on the fact that Ygritte and her gang had all the power while he has literally none.

Sansa would also have been violated if she had been forced by the Lannisters to marry Loras rather than Tyrion. The crucial factor is that the person who is abused/violated has no other choice in the matter/is forced to do something against their will with the very real threat of severe punishment if they don't comply. If you end up liking something you are forced to do it doesn't change the fact that you are forced to do it.

And Ygritte is quite aware of the power she has over Jon and uses it to get what she wants.

Daenerys is, of course, also raped by Drogo in their wedding night. He forces himself on her, touches her private parts which she didn't want at that time. She is given a choice in the end but we don't even know if Drogo was sincere there, if he had respected her wishes if she had refused him - nor did Dany know this. It seems Drogo successfully coerced her into agreeing to be fucked by him but even that we don't know for sure because of a lack of context. Is her final gesture caused by a sincere and informed and free sexual desire for the much older guy who just bought her? Or does she just do what she thinks she is expected to do as the good little bride she was trained to be?

We don't know. But we do know that she actually doesn't enjoy sex with Drogo for quite some time and doesn't actually want to sleep with him. So I'm pretty skeptical there.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Bro, this thread is BIZARRE. It's like everyone vs Lord Varys (who has some very strange opinions....)

While I find Arya being 11 and already having a pretty good kill count pretty disturbing, I feel like most of the early kills were something that she might not necessarily like or enjoy (like killing the guard), the insurance guy is a bit disturbing. 

For Raff's death, I don't really have a problem with his death. He's a douche, and if he was in our world I would happily put him in a gas chamber and watch him squeal (Chiswyck's story is vile, I have no sympathy for any of them after that). 

For Dareon, I feel some sympathy for him being trapped in a position at the Wall, but considering how he treated Sam, it kind of makes me dislike him. 

On 10/22/2023 at 7:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

but their images don't stick in his mind they would in a, well, a healthy 16-year-old with a strong(er) sex drive.

Can confirm, as a guy around that age. Something we agree on. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

For Raff's death, I don't really have a problem with his death. He's a douche, and if he was in our world I would happily put him in a gas chamber and watch him squeal

There was an incident in the UK when one prisoner killed another prisoner who was convicted for what Raff did, with a spoon. People online though he'd done a public service and should be released.

[sifth]

43 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was an incident in the UK when one prisoner killed another prisoner who was convicted for what Raff did, with a spoon. People online though he'd done a public service and should be released.

The problem is Raff is a rapist who was rewarded for his actions, by the Lannisters, who are currently in charge of Westeros. No one was ever going to convict him for his actions, unless they literally over threw the government.

Also as stated already, the guy is a monster and had it coming. I'm all for some vigilante justice, when a horrible criminal slips through the cracks.

[sifth]

6 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Bro, this thread is BIZARRE. It's like everyone vs Lord Varys (who has some very strange opinions....)

 

You'd be shocked how often this happens, lol

Edited October 24, 2023 by sifth

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Bro, this thread is BIZARRE. It's like everyone vs Lord Varys (who has some very strange opinions....)

While I find Arya being 11 and already having a pretty good kill count pretty disturbing, I feel like most of the early kills were something that she might not necessarily like or enjoy (like killing the guard), the insurance guy is a bit disturbing. 

She enjoyed the killing of Raff and, presumably, also that of Dareon. Insurance guy not so much and the guardsman neither. But she was very effective and efficient.

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

For Raff's death, I don't really have a problem with his death. He's a douche, and if he was in our world I would happily put him in a gas chamber and watch him squeal (Chiswyck's story is vile, I have no sympathy for any of them after that). 

I imagine you would have read it: I have no trouble with Raff dying ... but I do have trouble with Arya killing him and, especially, with the manner and the state of mind she does it.

8 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

For Dareon, I feel some sympathy for him being trapped in a position at the Wall, but considering how he treated Sam, it kind of makes me dislike him.

I hope you disliking somebody doesn't you want an 11-year-old kill them. Arya, though, is at the point where she clearly kills people she dislikes.

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was an incident in the UK when one prisoner killed another prisoner who was convicted for what Raff did, with a spoon. People online though he'd done a public service and should be released.

He did do a public service. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I hope you disliking somebody doesn't you want an 11-year-old kill them. Arya, though, is at the point where she clearly kills people she dislikes.

I think for Arya's situation, "dislikes" is a bit of a weak word to say. She killed the insurance guy (who IIRC, she thought was grouchy or something, but for killing him it was "just following orders") Raff, she's had a big grudge against for a long time and Dareon is somewhere along the lines of disliking him for the Lanna thing and vigilante justice for desertion of the NW and his companions. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Jaenara Belarys

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He did do a public service. 

He wasn't released though, he got moved to a higher security prison.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

He did do a public service.

I'unno. I have no time for rapists and would be quite happy for them to drop dead, but in a society which has (a) effectively instituted the rule of law and (b) repudiated capital punishment, as the UK has, I don't think vigilante murder can ever be considered a public service. Even the state is only allowed to kill under a very specific and narrow set of circumstances (note that killings by police in the UK are very few in number compared to the US, say, averaging less than three per year since 2000).

Westeros and Essos are a bit different because capital punishment is still a thing and the rule of law is pretty tenuous across most of it, with concepts like outlawry still in vogue. If knight errants are permitted to kill outlaws, then Arya is too. Dareon and Raff were certainly criminals who would be convicted by any competent and non-corrupt authority. They hadn't been, of course, which probably removes the sheen of legal entitlement from the killing, but in the eyes of her peers, at least peers who knew the full story, she was probably morally justified in doing so.

The state of mind question is another good one: in theory, those enforcing the law should be dispassionate and take satisfaction from performing their duty well, but not from revenge or the inflicting of violence for its own sake, etc. Humans being humans, that's much easier said than done, but we do have to question Arya's state of mind when killing Raff, I think: was she doing it because she considered it the just thing to do bearing in mind all the circumstances, or because she hated him and wanted to kill him? In the latter case, that comes much closer to being a straight-up murder, no matter who the victim is or what they've done.

[Lord Varys]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:42 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

I think for Arya's situation, "dislikes" is a bit of a weak word to say. She killed the insurance guy (who IIRC, she thought was grouchy or something, but for killing him it was "just following orders") Raff, she's had a big grudge against for a long time and Dareon is somewhere along the lines of disliking him for the Lanna thing and vigilante justice for desertion of the NW and his companions. 

Dareon is a perfect case of her looking for a pretext (perhaps, we don't actually know why she murdered him since the act wasn't depicted) to get rid of a guy she dislikes. Sam she doesn't dislike, so she doesn't care to figure out if he is actually keeping his vows or not. We know he breaks his vows with Gilly on the ship after Aemon's death, so he certainly could have fucked Gilly (of who Arya has no idea exists) all day long in their place in Braavos. Not to mention that he could have frequented other brothels Arya didn't visit, etc.

The crucial thing is that it is bad for Arya's mental health and her well-being to walk around and kill people. That is just a fact and it is independent of the fact that her society sucks and that the people she killed may or may not have 'deserved death'.

It would be easier to swallow if she just murdered Ticklers and Raffs. But even that would scar her mentally. The fact that she also kills Dareons now is quite troubling.

Shagwell, etc. also clearly deserved to die, but it also harmed Brienne mentally (and physically) to kill that scum. She shouldn't be doing that either.

[The Sleeper]

On 10/21/2023 at 7:46 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Should I rename this topic : 

Arya killing Daeron : Was it right? 

lol

Bit late. 

Pretty much every thread with that kind of topic and a few others besides, turns to Arya's mental state which in turn inevitably turns into a discussion of Daeron. It's like gravity. 

I must have seen a hundred of them. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by The Sleeper

[the trees have eyes]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:23 AM, Craving Peaches said:

There was an incident in the UK when one prisoner killed another prisoner who was convicted for what Raff did, with a spoon. People online though he'd done a public service and should be released.

IIRC two prisoners in Broadmoor Psychiatric Hospital, one a convicted murderer who went on to murder a further two inmates in other prisons, tortured and brutally murdered another prisoner (a quite prolific paedophile) over nine hours.

I consider Raff the Sweetling to be scum but Arya kills him in a revenge killing for the murder of Lommy Greenhands (staging the killing in the same way) not serial paedophilia.  His seedy response to Arya offering herself to him is opportunistic rather than predatory / compulsive and is further confirmation, if any were needed, that he is human excrement but I don't think he's comparable with a serial paedophile (or his killing with the Hannibal the Cannibal / spoon murder).

I remain broadly sympathetic to Daeron, who some people seem keen to portray as a rapist / paedophile to justify his killing, while glad that Raff got his comeuppance, if slightly troubled by how accurately Arya recreated Lommy's final moments. 

[Hugorfonics]

There are no characters in asoiaf born to be psychopaths. Of the three “big baddies,” Joff, Gregor and Ramsay each were constructed to be the monster they are and if the specific building blocks werent there then they wouldn’t turn out to be “psychopaths.” Joff after crowning is a different level of a monster then before. In fact we can pinpoint his two dramatic shifts one being with Nymeria.

Quote

Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

And the other being Eddard trying to kick Joff off the throne. Where Joff was cruel after Nymeria, Eddards revelation that Joff’s a bastard turned him into something sadistic and evil.

Quote

He can make me look at the heads, she told herself, but he can't make me see them.

"This one is your father," he said. "This one here. Dog, turn it around so she can see him."

Gregor, allegedly, killed his sister and was rewarded with a knighthood. After his confirmed fiasco with Sandor it was obvious Gregor is cruel and violent and was again rewarded with an elite commando mission to the Red Keep where his infamy was cemented and once again rewarded to the top of Tywin’s military staff. Like Joff, although more and through material means Gregor was not born to be a psychopath but was given rewards and approvals every time he stepped further into decay. And lastly Rams, whos father taught him “a flayed man holds no secrets,” among one of the many signs like the literal signs of flayed men hanging in the castles, was not born to be a psychopath but was encouraged every step of the way, even given Reek to make sure they stay the course.

Quote

It was meant to be amusing, but he and Ramsay became inseparable. I do wonder, though … was it Ramsay who corrupted Reek, or Reek Ramsay?"

 

Ok, now for the fun one. Arya Stark was not born to be a psychopath. Arya Stark, when compared to the three above, is not a psychopath. But when looking at their reasons, (Joff-traumatized, Gregor-rewarded, Ramsay- taught) she’s definitely walking the tightrope.

Arya, a normal child despite the strict misogynistic society that thought otherwise, was (is) a kind person knowing the difference between right and wrong. But like Joffrey's trauma finding out his dad’s not his, Arya witnesses her father losing her head, as if the past weeks were not traumatic enough, is so monumental it is unrealistic to believe her mental health could stay firmly intact.

Quote

Her lord father had taught her never to steal, but it was growing harder to remember why.

 Of course stealing bread is something Aladdin says is ok yet nevertheless we can see something like Joff’s level of trauma manifesting in Arya. Nevertheless she stays a good person, to the limit of hero vastly different then Gregor’s escapade at the Red Keep. She runs into a fire to save the lives of three that society gave up for dead. Like Gregor she achieved an outstanding feat and was richly rewarded in benefits and ghastly harmed in mental health.

Quote

"Three lives were snatched from a god. Three lives must be repaid. The gods are not mocked."

Arya was rewarded for her bravery, like how Gregor received his knighthood Arya became the ghost in Harrenhal. Arya didn’t necessarily love being the ghost but feared losing her powers and when she did she, naturally for any child, tried to run straight into her mother’s arms only to be intercepted by Sandor, to name a few. Like Ramsay’s encouragement to follow the signs the universe points, and that of their accomplice, Arya’s past behavior of theft and killings continued and was encouraged.

Quote

Will we bury him?"

"Why?" Sandor said. "He don't care, and we've got no spade. Leave him for the wolves and wild dogs. Your brothers and mine." He gave her a hard look. "First we rob him, though."

There were two silver stags in the archer's purse, and almost thirty coppers. His dagger had a pretty pink stone in the hilt. The Hound hefted the knife in his hand, then flipped it toward Arya. She caught it by the hilt, slid it through her belt, and felt a little better. It wasn't Needle, but it was steel.

Arya though is not happy, the trauma of her father’s death is now added with her mothers and who she’s become is not who she wants to be to the limit of near suicidal. Unlike Ramsay who embraced his path and accomplice, even physically constructing a replacement Reek, Arya does not think the lives of her and Sandor are worth it.

Quote

 "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once.

With no mother to run to, Arya follows the sign, not knowing the repercussions let alone the translation to her password but, subconsciously, perhaps where some mental health used to be, knows damn well, and has known for quite some time the meaning of “valar morghulis”. Even the house of black and white though profess to have rules, all men must die but in their own time. Eddard certainly would have said that it was Dareon’s time, due to a misconstrued view that Westeros has of the NW even though commanders like the Old Bear disagreed with it.

Quote

No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile.

This largely does I believe start Arya’s reasoning, although the “vile” of Dareon is far from her mind. Eddard continued -

Quote

not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."

Arya Stark of course is not the Lady of Winterfell (well, she doesnt know she is lol) but can, and has, deduced who in her perception is wrong and right, aided along with the trauma, upcoming rewards and universal signs.

Quote

"What happened to your brother?" Cat asked. "The fat one. Did he ever find a ship to Oldtown? He said he was supposed to sail on the Lady Ushanora."

"We all were. Lord Snow's command. I told Sam, leave the old man, but the fat fool would not listen." The last light of the setting sun shone in his hair. "Well, it's too late now."

"Just so," said Cat as they stepped into the gloom of a twisty little alley.

Joffrey, Gregor and Ramsay do not play vigilante, crimes and wrongdoing are not their concern, but neither does the house of black and white, who does warn Arya that playing the superhero lord, the ghost of harrenhal, is not them.

Quote

"Then you do not belong here. Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces."

Which I think is really interesting. A sign of discouragement to combat her trauma, but the punishment of temporary blindness turned out to be something of a reward and I wonder if this discouraging sign was actually meant to encourage, similarly if the trauma wearing a new face brings is purposeful and used to distance one from themselves and the empathy and remorse that comes with it.