Strange marriages

[Hippocras]

43 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Actually it does. GRRM has always refer to himself as a "gardener" in his writting process. He planted the seed for a rebellion that lead to Maekar's death in ACOK but it is only a decade later that he fleshed out that idea into the Peake Uprising.

That's quite a bold statement when even to this day we don't know which camp (if any) the Royces took during the different Blackfyre Rebellions. So linking Walder Frey's marriage to a Royce to the aftermath of the Peake Uprising (a likely Blackfyre adjacent conflict) without tangible evidence is risky. Might I add that we don't even know when Walder's marriage took place or the year of Stevron's birth (233 and 234 AC are both possible). Walder and Perra could have married in 233 AC like they could have married 3 years earlier.

Yes, I know he gardens. That is clear. But he doesn't write his characters or the events of the series without simultaneously working on the back-story. In Walder Frey's case, his many marriages and hundred odd descendants are aiming to be like a microcosm of self-interested infighting because his various sub-families are not allies of each other. So where he puts down the specific names of wives, instead of just saying "unknown wife" as he did so often elsewhere, that means he has an idea of who the woman was, by lineage, and by allegiance.

The Royces are not uniform. They have at least two branches, and even within the Runestone branch we saw brothers splitting up to join different camps. Robar joined Renly, etc. So while I suspect Walder's marriage led to neutrality or side-flipping in the later part of the Blackfyre era, she could certainly have been from a break-away Royce branch that joined the Blackfyre cause. 

I just feel like it fits the facts better for her to have been from the loyalist side.

Edited January 25 by Hippocras

[Lady Ella]

On Jocelyn Stark: I don't think there's any law barring women from inheriting Winterfell. When Robb and Catelyn discuss Robb's heir there's no mention of any such law. In fact, Robb has to specifically disinherit Sansa. The Starks are something of a contradiction. One the one hand, they're obsessed with upholding the law. On the other, they're quick to bend the law to suit their purposes when it's politically convenient. I think Stark males throughout history have simply contrived to make sure a woman never inherits, backed by their bannermen, the vast majority of whom at any given time will be men.

Since Lord Edwyle only had one son, his sister Jocelyn would be next in the line of inheritance after Rickard. So the aim might have been to cut her and her heirs out of the line of inheritance altogether, making sure that Artos' descendents would be preferred because Jocelyn's heirs would not only come from a lesser house but would also be valemen and know nothing of the North or Winterfell, which is precisely the reason Robb gives for not naming them his heirs.

Or, even if Rickard died without issue and Jocelyn did become Lady of Winterfell, the fact that her husband is from a less powerful house means he's less likely to be able to rule through her. I think this is the main reason why a woman has never inherited Winterfell: a fear from Stark males that a woman's husband would try to rule through her, thus usurping House Stark (this is precisely why Robb disinherits Sansa). In this case, arranging a marriage outside the North is also a smart move because it would prevent one of the northern houses from seizing power or getting favourable treatment, and the Northern lords would be much less likely to follow orders from a valemen over his Northern Stark wife.

[SaffronLady]

15 hours ago, maesternewton said:

never been a ruling Queen of the Reach

There was one Queen regnant of the Reach mentioned in passing.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Nothing can top Jocelyn Stark marrying  landless lesser branch of House Royce and a younger son in that. If it was someone from North it would make sense. 

But, Lord Corbray marrying merchant girl is very strange even if House Corbray is so cash poor. Their situwation doesnt seem as severe as House Westerling and I'm sure there are Houses like Frey around to offer half a decent dowry for prestige and influence.

Dunks bastard/ legit child's match with House Tarth would be strange too. They seem very proud and noble line. 

 

[SaffronLady]

20 minutes ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Dunks bastard/ legit child's match with House Tarth would be strange too. They seem very proud and noble line. 

I personally prefer a friendship or apprenticeship line of transmission for Dunk's shield to House Tarth. 

[Angel Eyes]

Simply thinking about Branda Stark, there's the fact that Harrold Rogers is a mere knight, somewhat lower on the Westerosi food chain, meaning little is gained. Also, Rickard married her younger sister Lyarra; typically an older daughter is preferred for a match if both are single (e.g. Laban deceiving Jacob by swapping Leah and Rachel or Lady Catherine de Bourgh's surprise that Kitty and Lydia Bennet are out in society before their eldest sister Jane is married). Could this mean that Branda was already married by the time Rickard was of age?

Edited January 26 by Angel Eyes

[Green Stag]

On 1/25/2024 at 11:28 AM, Hippocras said:

@Thomaerys Velaryon

I am reasonably confident that Walder Frey's marriage to Perra Royce and the birth of their son Stevron was related to either the Peake Uprising, the Great Council, or both. It is quite unusual for GRRM to specify dates of birth so precisely for such minor characters (Stevron) unless he is trying to relate the birth to the events of the histories.

In general Walder Frey's lifespan corresponds in very interesting ways to the Blackfyre era.

We already know that Walder Frey's sister's wedding to Ambrose Butterwell doubled as the Second Blackfyre Rebellion in 212. We also can guess that the name Ambrose is connected to House Ambrose, which is connected via the Caltrops (Marq Ambrose) and the First Blackfyre Rebellion (Aubrey Ambrose) to House Peake. So House Frey were Blackfyre supporters at this point, and probably up until the failed Third Rebellion. But by the time of the Fourth Rebellion most families in Westeros had given up on the Blackfyres, probably helped along by marriage alliances between those Houses with Blackfyre leanings and those with loyalist leanings made in the intervening years. Walder Frey's first marriage was likely one of those matches.

A bit off topic perhaps, but Lord Frey (Walder's father) was with Bloodraven at the end of the second Blackfyre rebellion (IIRC), his / House Frey's punishment is never revealed, and the Freys don't seem to have lost any significant wealth or territory some 80 - 90 years later.  Could Lord Frey have been an agent, or forced to become an agent of Bloodraven / the Iron Throne to avoid punishment?

Stevron's Freys birth does correspond with the Peake Uprising, however if directly related, what did House Royce get out of it?

Later, Stevron is wed to Correna Swann (who, like the Royces appear to be roughly around the second most powerful house of their respective region), her son Ryman's birth seems to approximately correspond to that of Steffon Baratheon (246), so possibly relates to Lyonel Baratheons revolt (?).  In this case the weddings of Correna and Cyrenna (who's son Jered was born 248 or 249) to Stevron and Walder may have been punishment for their involvement in Lyonel's uprising.  

[Hippocras]

14 hours ago, Green Stag said:

A bit off topic perhaps, but Lord Frey (Walder's father) was with Bloodraven at the end of the second Blackfyre rebellion (IIRC), his / House Frey's punishment is never revealed, and the Freys don't seem to have lost any significant wealth or territory some 80 - 90 years later.  Could Lord Frey have been an agent, or forced to become an agent of Bloodraven / the Iron Throne to avoid punishment?

Stevron's Freys birth does correspond with the Peake Uprising, however if directly related, what did House Royce get out of it?

Later, Stevron is wed to Correna Swann (who, like the Royces appear to be roughly around the second most powerful house of their respective region), her son Ryman's birth seems to approximately correspond to that of Steffon Baratheon (246), so possibly relates to Lyonel Baratheons revolt (?).  In this case the weddings of Correna and Cyrenna (who's son Jered was born 248 or 249) to Stevron and Walder may have been punishment for their involvement in Lyonel's uprising.  

Lyonel's rebellion was a bit earlier, 239 or maybe 240. 

I find it interesting that, like the Freys, the Swanns seem to be a family that often sit the fence, trying to be on all sides at once. Maybe they have branches, or maybe they just really don't like committing. They are a Stormlands house so it does remain possible that Walder's second marriage was somewhat related to Lyonel's rebellion, but the timing doesn't fit in a way that hints at that. It fits more with the denouement of the broken betrothals of Aegon's other children, Daeron in particular.

As for the Royces, we can only speculate. We really don't know how important a Royce Perra was. 

Edited January 27 by Hippocras

[Lord of Oldstones]

20 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I personally prefer a friendship or apprenticeship line of transmission for Dunk's shield to House Tarth. 

I too would prefer such as i find House Tarth very cool. But Brienne looks and acts so much like Dunk. 

 

Many times it feels westerosi class system very mobile. We have likes of Bronn,Baelish,Clegane and especially Seaworth rising high super fast..can add Spicer, all houses that held Harrenhall( minus Strongs & maybe Qoherys) too there are many more i'm sure. 

 

And yet Freys and Tyrells are still looked down upon.

[Hippocras]

On 1/27/2024 at 3:15 PM, Lord of Oldstones said:

I too would prefer such as i find House Tarth very cool. But Brienne looks and acts so much like Dunk. 

 

Many times it feels westerosi class system very mobile. We have likes of Bronn,Baelish,Clegane and especially Seaworth rising high super fast..can add Spicer, all houses that held Harrenhall( minus Strongs & maybe Qoherys) too there are many more i'm sure. 

 

And yet Freys and Tyrells are still looked down upon.

I personally think that Egg choosing Dunk was not entirely random and there may be something to his bloodline. 

I also think the Tarth bloodline contains a drop or two of otherwise lost royal blood via the bastard route: I am holding to my Larissa and Aegon the Uncrowned theory until proven wrong.

So Dunk marrying into the Tarth family would represent a way for GRRM to join up lost bloodlines.

I would speculate that Dunk was chosen as a consort to a lady who inherrited because he had the connections, reputation and strength to keep her lands safe under threat, much like Elenda Caron/Baratheon's post-Dance marriage.

Edited January 30 by Hippocras

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:50 PM, SaffronLady said:

I personally prefer a friendship or apprenticeship line of transmission for Dunk's shield to House Tarth. 

Yeah I most certainly agree with you. Why would an old and proud house take on a bastard son, even of the head of the king's guard. So...what about Brienne's mother's side. Could her mom's side have a Dunk the Lunk bloodline? 

[Loraq]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:02 AM, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure about that.

Lord Edwyle had three male uncles (Artos, Errold and Rodrik) that would be closer kin than Jocelyn's grandsons. If Rickard and Edwyle died while they were alive, I'd say they'd have a much better chance of inheriting Winterfell.

Even if the uncles were all dead, I'm not entirely sure I'd be a clear cut matter. The potential grandsons of Artos the implacable would be grandnephews of a Lord Willam, through a male line. Meanwhile, Jocelyn's grandsons would be grand-grandsons of Lord Willam, through the female line. With the later being born and raised away from the North, I'm honestly not sure how it'd turn out.

If a female Stark, or at least her male descendants, aren't barred from inherit Winterfell, then Jocelyn's grandsons would supposedly be the heirs, as they would be the sole direct descendants of Lord Willam, although through the female line.

On the contrary, if only males who descend from the male line are allowed to inherit, then the situation would be completely different.

Catelyn, talking about Robb's succession, implies that Jocelyn's descendants are the closest kin to the Starks with the right to inherit Winterfell if the main line dies out. Although their rights of succession are dismissed by Robb, it's because, as you stated, they were raised away from the North, not because they are descendants from the Starks through a female line (something Robb would point out, if that was another of the reasons for him to dismiss their claim).

I think that what may play against these descendants in these type of cases it's the fact that some may have been raised away from the North, as with Jocelyn's descendants, not the fact that they descend from the female line.

Well, until GRRM himself gives us a clear answer about this situation, we will never know.

[The hairy bear]

12 minutes ago, Loraq said:

Well, until GRRM himself gives us a clear answer about this situation, we will never know.

GRRM has given us a clear answer: the answer being that it's not clear.

Any succession that could lead to Wintefell being inherited by grand-grandsons through collateral lines, or to someone born outside the North, etc. will likely be disputed. And it won't be a clear-cut scenario where it's a legitimate heir against an usurper.

[Loraq]

39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

GRRM has given us a clear answer: the answer being that it's not clear.

Any succession that could lead to Wintefell being inherited by grand-grandsons through collateral lines, or to someone born outside the North, etc. will likely be disputed. And it won't be a clear-cut scenario where it's a legitimate heir against an usurper.

Well, truth be told, any claim can be disputed, if one has the right arguments. We can even say that the current main Stark line isn't the rightful ruler of Winterfell, based on what happened between Cregan's descendants.

As GRRM said, this matter of succession isn't clear, which only confirms the fact that we can't say for sure that a female Stark or her descendants are barred from inherit Winterfell, because George himself never said such thing explicitly.

Edited January 31 by Loraq

[Loraq]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:01 AM, maesternewton said:

Most importantly, the fact that Cregard Stark was passed, and Winterfell went to Bathorgan Stark shows that they were some funny businesses taking place, because Winterfell was supposed to go to Cregard Stark after Jonnel Stark died childless, going by normal succession.

Exactly. By normal succession, and if he was still alive, Cregard, as Edric's eldest son, who was in turn Cregan's third son, was the one who should have inherited Winterfell after the dead of his uncle Jonnel, not Barthogan, Cregan's fourth son.

[maesternewton]

On 1/30/2024 at 9:33 AM, Hippocras said:

I personally think that Egg choosing Dunk was not entirely random and there may be something to his bloodline. 

My theory is that Dunk is a descendant of Lucamore Strong. 

[The hairy bear]

14 hours ago, Loraq said:

As GRRM said, this matter of succession isn't clear, which only confirms the fact that we can't say for sure that a female Stark or her descendants are barred from inherit Winterfell, because George himself never said such thing explicitly.

We can say for sure that:

• There has never been any ruling Queen of Winter or lady of Winterfell.
• That in the many occasions that in such a long dynasty, a king/lord has died leaving only daughters, the succession has ended passing to a male. Which, in practice, means that women have been barred from inheriting Winterfell.
• Although in theory anything can happen in the future, a female claimant to Winterfell would have a difficult time making her claim prevail. Precedent would be a huge disadvantage.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, maesternewton said:

My theory is that Dunk is a descendant of Lucamore Strong. 

He could be, but on the other hand, who cares? That just pushes the question backwards to what is so special about Lucamore Strong's bloodline.

[Loraq]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:01 AM, The hairy bear said:

Which, in practice, means that women have been barred from inheriting Winterfell.

This is more than what Robb and Catelyn apparently knew. When they talked about Robb's succession, there was no mention of such a thing like that. They even talked about his sisters' claims to Winterfell. 

Edited February 11 by Loraq

[Minsc]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:00 AM, James Steller said:

The only way it makes any kind of sense to me is that Robert arranged for his antisocial and awkward little brother to marry the ugliest and least appealing woman he could find on a flimsy pretence of creating tension in the Reach, when really it was just Robert having a laugh.

I doubt Robert cared the slightest about finding Stannis a marriage.  Moreover, why would Robert even know about Selyse's appearance?  I doubt he would have ever met her before Stannis's marriage.  Finally, if Robert did arrange the marriage than surely we would have some paragraph from Stannis complaining how it was unfair that he had to marry who Robert picked while Renly didn't.  

Likely Jon Arryn recommended Stannis that he marry into a Reach house and Stannis possibly picked someone from the Florent because they hadn't been involved in the Siege of Storm's End.